Resizing question

[madhatter300871]

Hi all.

I have a HD television, native resolution 1366x768. The HDMI input accepts 1920x1080p, 1366x768, 1280x720 input, amongst other resolutions.

The 1080p resolution accepts 60hz, 50hz, 25hz and 24hz. The other resolutions only accepts 50hz and 60hz. The PC input will no doubt accept a much wider selection, but I don't want to use VGA.

So my question about resizing is :-

Lets assume my movie has a resolution of 720x576. If I configure my desktop to be 1920x1080 does my movie get rescaled twice. i.e upscaled by the PC to 1920x1080 then downscaled by the TV to 1366x768.

Thanks in advance.

[fairchild]

Yes, it would get resized twice. I would just set your desktop to your native display resolution (in your case being 1366x768) and have your video player/renderer handle the resizing.

[Qaq]

What is worse - double resizing or 24 video on 60 display? I'm not so sure.
OP can set display to 720p50 and speedup 720p24 movies to 50/2 with ReClock. Yep, it will be 4% faster but PQ and smoothness will be perfect. IMO worth to try.

[dukey]

What fairchild said. Set your desktop to your displays native resolution.

[madhatter300871]

Thanks for the answers.

I do actually use reclock on my main setup, which uses a 720p projector with 107" screen. I speedup all my movies to 25fps, the increase in audio pitch is nothing I am not used to; living in PAL land. I do this because the projector will not accept 24Hz refresh rate.

My TV does accept 24Hz in 1080p mode and I wanted to try it out. However, 23.976 played back on a 24Hz display still display motion judder and so I do still use reclock to speed up to 24fps. The blurays that I have that are actually in 24p play flawlessly, but there don't seem to be that many.

Anyway, I have tinkered around with the different options and I think I agree with you folks. Native resolution and speed up to 25fps.

Thanks for the feedback.

[madhatter300871]

Hmm :(

Turns out my 1366x768 (native resolution) only accepts 60Hz input. I bloody hate technology sometimes !!!

Oh well, 1080p24 is better than 768@60, as I seem to have a pair of those eyes that can see the motion judder.

Thanks for the interest anyway.

[Mangix]

Hmm :(

Turns out my 1366x768 (native resolution) only accepts 60Hz input. I bloody hate technology sometimes !!!

Oh well, 1080p24 is better than 768@60, as I seem to have a pair of those eyes that can see the motion judder.

Thanks for the interest anyway.

modify the EDID. I had luck doing so with a 1366x768 laptop screen and got it to 100Hz.

edit: https://www.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=166801

the pixel clock patcher I think is optional for that resolution.

[pirlouy]

Oh well, 1080p24 is better than 768@60, as I seem to have a pair of those eyes that can see the motion judder.
There's something wrong.
If you're TV is 720p (or 768p), I don't think Windows will let you use a 1080p resolution.

If you send a 1080p24 resolution, internally, there's a downscale, and if your TV does not accept 768p24 or 720p24, I don't think your 1080p24 will be changed in 768p24 (720p24).

But maybe I don't know at all this kind of TV...

[madhatter300871]

My TV is a HD TV, with a native resolution of 1366x768 (I would call this HD ready).

Windows will allow a 1920x1080p input to the TV, and in fact the Nvidia control panel suggests that this is the default. When I do set it to 1080p the text on screen is badly aliased and small, so I know 1080p is working.

(My projector has a native resolution of 1280x720 and this also accepts a 1080p input.)

My problem isn't one of resolution per say, I beleive that the TV is telling the Nvidia driver what refresh rates can be used at what resolutions, probably in the EDID data (right ?)

I'm just about to check out the pixel clock patcher .....

[madhatter300871]

When I run the Nvidia pixel clock patcher I get an error message :

"Failed to open file for reading".

I have done some googling but can't get it to run. Any ideas ?

[Mangix]

the pixel clock patcher is useless for your needs.

If I am reading this correctly, you want higher refresh rate in 1366x768 in which case the Custom Resolution Utility is what you need.

If on the other hand you want 1080p at a higher refresh rate, know that you can do up to 71Hz 1080p without patching the drivers to remove the pixel clock limit.

edit: "Include extension block" typically must be unchecked to make any changes. Know that this will remove audio capability from your TV.

[leeperry]

yeah, 720p displays are usually useless because they will only support 24Hz in 1080p...and the downscale will be as ugly as it gets.

you might try 48Hz maybe? otherwise your only option is 24@25Hz in Reclock or to get a native 1080p TV I'm afraid.

[madhatter300871]

I'm not sure that's strictly true. I have a 720p projector and a 768 TV, both accept 50Hz and 60Hz in 1080p mode, the TV also accepts 24Hz and 25Hz. Both, when in 50Hz mode (using reclock to speed up) play back the video very smoothly and judder free. The TV, when in 24Hz mode (using reclock to speed up) plays back the video very smoothly and judder free

Yes, I do want a different refresh rate in 1366x768 mode. However, I don't want a higher rate I want a lower rate. At the moment, 1366x768 only supports 60Hz, I want it to at least support 50Hz and hopefully support 24Hz as well.

I did use the custom resolution utility but, alas, I have no idea how to use it, so I have some questions :-

1. Do I add a detailed resolution or a standard resolution ?
2. What are the established resolutions and what do I do with them, if anything ?
3. Standard resolutions has a drop down box containing many resolutions; 1366x768 is not one of them.
4. Do I export my new resolutions ?
5. If yes, what do I do with the exported resolutions ?

Thanks for your help.

[Mangix]

1. detailed. also make sure to select "Automatic - Best for LCD" this will lower the pixel clock by a lot as compared to the other option.
2. uncheck them. I have all unchecked. Established timings are legacy timings designed for CRTs.
3. forget about standard resolutions.
4. can't export just yet. the tool automatically applies everything in the registry.

[hello_hello]

TVs generally support the all standard TV/HDMI resolutions for input. ie 1080p, 720p, 576p and 480p (well PAL TVs do but I don't know if NTSC TVs necessarily support 576p) They should support (if it's PAL) 50/60hz at both 1080p and 720p. I know that's not the TV's native resolution but 720p would probably be as close as you'll get. Any other resolutions aside from those are generally considered PC resolutions and they're probably all fixed at 60Hz. The VGA input is probably fixed at 60hz too. From memory my other half's 1366x768 TV lets you change VGA refresh rates but they don't use the whole screen.

If 1280x720 won't let you select 50hz for a refresh rate using Windows Display Properties try the TV resolutions under "change display resolution" in the Nvidia control panel. 720p should let you select either 50 or 60 hz. If you were watching video using another HDMI device it'd be connecting at 720p or 1080p anyway.

I know you mentioned 24hz, 25hz and maybe 30hz as alternative refresh rates. I think you'll find if they only apply to 1080p they're actually interlaced inputs, not progressive. I experimented with using 25hz but found when playing progressive video it didn't look as smooth. If using 24hz or 25hz you find moving windows across the display causes them to "lean" a little as they move or if mouse movement seems more erratic then they'll be interlaced refresh rates.

Many TVs just use the standard HDMI resolutions at 50/60hz or the PC resolutions at 60hz and that's it. Some TVs may be more versatile especially if they have a true 1080/24p mode but I'd be kind of surprised if your TV lets you stay from the standard TV/PC resolutions. Mine won't.
And on the other hand even if a TV supports a multitude of PC input resolutions to be sociable, there's nothing to say it won't rescale some of them to something more "standard" internally. It'd probably explain why sometimes things seem illogical, such as a 1366x768 TV capable of refreshing at 50hz which doesn't support 1366x768 at 50hz as an input refresh rate.

[madhatter300871]

Mangix, thanks for the explanation. I did as you said and still no joy. It doesn't work for my setup. It seems my TV will just not accept anything other than 60Hz at 1366x768 resolution.

hello_hello, thanks for your explanation. I did a little more checking and you are right, 24/25/30Hz are all interlaced inputs. Oddly, the windows panel tells me this, the Nvidia control panel does not, that's how I missed it. I have settled on watching all my movies at 50Hz. It's not actually a problem as this is normal for me, living in PAL land, I just wanted to try my best to get the TV working at 24Hz in it's native resolution (you wouldn't think this was too much to ask would you !!).

I use reclock to do the re-sampling and have set the max speedup to 5% so that it doesn't need to be set manually each time. I use MadVR as the renderer and have set 720p50 and 1080p50 as allowed resolutions. A quick test shows that it does select 720p or 1080p according to the movie resolution.

Two more questions if I may :-

1. Do you know at what resolution MadVR will decide to use 1080p as opposed to 720p ?

2. Just for my own understanding. I fully understand the concept of interlaced video and how it was used with CRT televisions, but what does a digital LCD panel do with an interlaced input ? If the source video is not interlaced (I don't own much interlaced material these days) what is the effect of watching it on a TV with interlaced input ? I have tried this out and can't really see any negative effects on screen. If I play interlaced material (true interlaced material with each frame consisting of fields from alternative frames) using the 24Hz interlaced input, will the TV perform de-interlacing ? I am just wondering why the TV doesn't allow for 24/25/30Hz progressive.

[hello_hello]

I don't use MadVR so I can't help you there.

For me, watching progressive video while using an interlaced input seemed to reduce the quality a bit. Not for still images, but when it came to motion it seemed to a little.

As far as what does the de-interlacing.... I can only tell you the way I think it works for my setup. MPC-HC and ffdshow.
MPC-HC's internal mpeg2 decoder does de-interlacing but unless I'm missing something it's horrible, so I disable the internal decoder, which means MPC-HC can't de-interlace it. With ffdshow decoding mpeg2 I use it's de-interlacing filter, generally de-interlacing with Yadif. With the de-interlacing filter disabled ffdshow has an option in it's output section to pass the interlaced flag along to the next process in the chain. With that option disabled nothing gets de-interlaced even when using an interlaced input. With the interlaced info being passed on, the video card de-interlaces if the connection is progressive, if it's an interlaced connection I'd assume the TV does it.

I haven't done much comparing but the TV and video card both seem to de-interlace the same (assuming the above is correct). I can't see any major difference. I think both de-interlace good quality video well but I did try some old interlaced 4:3 DVD video at one stage which was almost VHS quality and for those, Yadif did a better job. Not so many jagged edges or de-interlacing lines in motion.

I may have uploaded these samples for you when we were discussing this subject a while back (I might have but I can't remember). You said using 25fps/50Hz with your projector or TV looks pretty smooth to you. It's way better than a mismatched frame/refresh rate for me too, but even 25fps/50Hz can look jittery at times to me. The "film strobe" effect, if that's the right name for it, can be pretty noticeable. There's a shot in the samples where the camera pans about 10 seconds in where it's really bad due to the contrast. At least it looks terrible to me, even using my CRT PC monitor.. The second sample is the same clip converted to 50fps using InterFrame (Avisynth plugin). The difference is huge on my TV. Even the close-up of the faces at the end where the camera bobs up and down looks totally different to me. In fact I've become so used to jittery motion that when it's actually smooth it almost freaks me out a little until I get used to it. 25 v 50.zip (https://www.yousendit.com/download/UW16S3hld0FZY1FVV01UQw) (link valid for 1 week)

I've no idea why TVs don't allow 24/25Hz progressive (unless they have a film mode, I guess). I'm pretty sure it's not part of the standard TV/HDMI spec so maybe there's some sort of cost/design reason. I don't really know.

[leeperry]

again and again, try 48Hz as this might save your day if you're lucky....and if you wanna push it try 48.5/49/49.5 until you can find the lowest it would support and then Reclock will change the playback speed anyway :)

[Qaq]

BTW, why not try SVP? 720p24(25) > 720p60

[hello_hello]

Thinking about it, I wonder if 25fps/50Hz is going to look any different to 25fps/25Hz anyway. The frames are still being displayed at the same speed. Sure for a 50hz refresh rate the display refreshes twice per frame, but even if it only refreshes once I'm not sure why it'd look different, because at 50Hz the image is the same every second time it refreshes. Maybe that's why TVs don't support 24p unless they have a film mode, as maybe then it really only eliminates the NTSC judder and a 25Hz refresh rate for PAL wouldn't actually achieve anything.

My TV doesn't have a film (24p) mode and won't let me use 25Hz progressive, so I can't compare it to 50Hz to see if it would actually look any different at 25fps. I have tried speeding 25fps video up to 50fps though, and while naturally it looks much smoother (albeit at twice the speed) I suspect that's only because the frame rate has doubled and it has little or nothing to do with with the frame/refresh rate ratio being 1:1 instead of 1:2.

[madhatter300871]

48Hz doesn't work. I can only use 24/25/50/60.

hello_hello, yes we did discuss this a while back.....the topic keeps haunting me, I think I need to get a life ! I couldn't download your zip, mediafire gave me an access denied message. Yes I do know what you mean about the strobe effect, or whatever we decide to call it. I do see it quit a lot when i use the 24Hz mode but I dont see it at 50Hz (well, I don't think I do!). I discussed this effect in other threads a while back and was really unsure as to what it was others where talking about... but i do concede that yes, I have also seen the effect.

Could you give me your interframe script please. I do use avisynth but I am not an expert on these more complex scripts. I'de be interested to give it a go.

[hello_hello]

Well that's bizzarre. The samples I uploaded were taken from an encode of one of the Battlestar Galactica episodes. They're literally only 42 seconds long. I just tried to download the samples using the link in my post and access was denied with a reference to buy the Battlestar Galactica DVDs at Amazon. I guess maybe some intellectually challenged person may have downloaded the samples and reported them or something, but 42 seconds??? Anyway, I'll upload them somewhere else and update the original link shortly.

The Interframe files can be downloaded from here: http://www.spirton.com/interframe/
Just copy all the stuff in the avisynth plugins folder in the zip file to your own avisynth plugins folder and you're ready to go. If you're using the multithreaded version of avisynth then you can use the script as specified in the link I provided, but if you don't want to worry about that just add the following to the end of your avisynth script. It'll automatically convert 25fps to 50fps and 24fps to 60fps. Without multithreading it's still fast enough for standard definition. In fact if I create a basic script to open a standard definition file and add the Interframe conversion to it, it's fast enough to do the conversion in real time, and my PC's no speed daemon.

InterFrame(Cores=1)

If you go through the encoded version frame by frame you can pick which ones were the original and which are the interpolated frames, but it's still fairly good.

New link for my samples. It expires in a week. 25 v 50 (https://www.yousendit.com/download/UW16S3hld0FZY1FVV01UQw)

[madhatter300871]

Downloading your sample now, thanks. I have had a very quick look at both and WOW, you can really see the difference. I see what you mean, the 50fps video is much smoother than the 25fps. I opened them up in virtualdub and frame stepped through, you can see which frames are the interpolated ones but they are pretty damn good aren't they. When watching the video normally I just can't tell.

I haven't installed the multi threaded version of avisynth, maybe I should give it a go. Do you recommend it ? I think it was incompatible with some of the filters I was using a while back, really can't remember which ones I just remember making a call not to switch to the multi threaded version and i haven't really thought about it since.

Have you ever had any audio sync issues after frame doubling ?

[Qaq]

Why bother with avisynth? Just go to http://www.svp-team.com/ and get the installer. Its smart enough for auto setup and allows fine tuning.
SVP allows you to watch any video on your PC file with frame interpolation (like you can watch it on high-end TVs and projectors). It increases frame rate by generating intermediate animation frames between existing ones to produce very smooth, fluid and clear motion.
SVP provides GPU acceleration and it's possible to watch FullHD 1080p-video recalculated to 60Hz in real-time with mid-range CPU and almost any GPU hardware.

[madhatter300871]

I took a look at the SVP web site and I have decided that I will go down the avisynth route, for now at least. Want to take things slowly and just have a play for now.

I've played around with interframe and have managed to get it working on my system. It works with my avisynth 2.5.8 dll and the avisynth 2.6.0 dll from SET (in MT mode). I do have to include the option GPU=true in order for it to work.

The problem I am having is keeping audio in sync when running interframe real time. My CPU load is about 70%, so i think the PC is keeping up with the workload.

Have you had any audio sync issues ? I am assuming that I don't have to resample the audio because while the frame rate has doubled, so has the frame count, so audio should still be in sync, right ?

I'm going to re-encode one of my movies using interframe and simply mux the original soundtrack back in, I'm sure that will still be in sync. I can't really make a move to doing this in the future because then I am limited to playing movies back on a PC (aren't I ?)

[hello_hello]

I haven't installed the multi threaded version of avisynth, maybe I should give it a go. Do you recommend it ? I think it was incompatible with some of the filters I was using a while back, really can't remember which ones I just remember making a call not to switch to the multi threaded version and i haven't really thought about it since.

I tried one of the builds myself, but it was quite a while ago so I can't remember which one or why I had a problem, but I did have one so I just switched back to the official build.
I don't encode using very slow filters all that often so when I do my workaround is simply to run two encodes simultaneously. That way the CPU generally runs close to 100%

Have you ever had any audio sync issues after frame doubling ?

Only when converting while playing and only if the video isn't being processed fast enough. If I convert first and then play it, it's fine.

I took a look at the SVP web site and I have decided that I will go down the avisynth route, for now at least. Want to take things slowly and just have a play for now.

I tried SVP last night and it seems to have the potential to work well. I didn't examine the scripts it creates very closely but the result seems to be the same as InterFrame. For want of a better way to put it, it loads like a DirectShow filter and gives you real time control over it's settings as you play. It also uses Reclock which means if you live in PAL land you can still run the TV at 50Hz, tell SVP to convert 24fps to 48fps instead of 60fps so it's not having to do as much work, and ReClock will speed it up to 50fps for you.
Because it uses the video card for some of the work it seems faster than using InterFrame via a script. I was able to play 720p video at 50fps in real time even just using the single threaded version of AVI synth. The problem I was having was with tearing. No matter what I tried (although I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes to that) I couldn't stop it. Maybe I just need to upgrade my video card (I had to fix some tearing issues even when I first hooked this PC up to the TV) but I can't get rid of it when using InterFrame or SVP. It seems to be caused by resizing. As soon as MPC-HC runs full screen it starts.
For whatever reason the tearing disappeared using the EVR renderer but MPC-HC's zoom function won't work with it (and I use it a lot..... sigh). The EVR Custom Presenter Renderer lets MPC-HC zoom again but the tearing returned..... I'll either play around some more at some stage or just wait until I've upgraded this PC, which I plan on doing pretty soon.

I'm going to re-encode one of my movies using interframe and simply mux the original soundtrack back in, I'm sure that will still be in sync. I can't really make a move to doing this in the future because then I am limited to playing movies back on a PC (aren't I ?)

I'm pretty sure most devices will play 50/60fps video. I only tried a 480p sample using my Bluray player but it was fine. Even my startphone happily played it.
If I'm reading the table here correctly, High Profile Level 4.1 only officially supports higher frame rates up to 720p. For higher resolutions you probably should use Level 4.2. I don't think many players check the level though. If anything they'd probably just check reference frames and decide whether or not they can play the video from there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels

[madhatter300871]

I never thought of checking the specs , doh ! Yes, looks like setting the level is all I need to do, I'll give it a whirl. I still havn't played with SVP yet, I might give it a go at some point, for now I am still preferring the AVIsynth route.

I now have 2 avisynth dll's, the original 2.5.8. version and the new 2.6 MT version, and I can just swap them around as I see fit, which is pretty easy.

Have you had a look at Madvr, the link is here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228

I think it might interest you, it's the renderer I have been using for quite a while now and I have no tearing in full screen at all. You just place the files in a directory of your choice and click a .bat file to register it and, when you want, a .bat file to unregister it. MPC-HC then sees it as a renderer. If my understanding is correct, the video is treated like a game and hence is rendered differently, MADSHIs doom9 page will give you the low down. I have an Nvidia 8400GS, not exactly cutting edge hey !, and it works just fine.

[hello_hello]

Yeah, MadVR was one of the renderers I tried as I have it installed, but it actually made the tearing worse. That may be just due to my GPU (8600GT) as MadVR works it fairly hard, but I didn't go as far as messing with MadVR's settings. I think the only reason I stopped using it in the first place was because I couldn't find a way to get ReClock to adjust the frame rate correctly when I moved a video from one monitor to another while MadVR was doing the rendering (different refresh rates). It always worked if I opened a video and played it on the same monitor, but given much of the time I open a video file from within Explorer on the PC monitor then move MPC-HC over to the TV.....Also MPC-HC's pixel shaders don't work with MadVR and I use them a fair bit.

I downloaded GPU-Z tonight, and playing a 1280x720 video using DXVA, GPU usage sat on about 16%. Using MadVR instead it was sitting on 60%, and that's without SVP thrown into the equation (I'd uninstalled it by that stage), so I think I'll upgrade by video card soon. It plays encoded video fine at 50/60fps, it's only when SVP is using it too and the video is running fullscreen that the tearing starts.

[madhatter300871]

Yes, MADvr does give my GPU a workout too, Im sure thats why I couldn't use interframe real time aswell. Regarding moving MPCHC between monitors, reclock re-adjusts just fine on my system, changes the refresh rate depending on which screen I'm on.

I have set MPCHC to use screen 2 when going to full screen, so when I double click it it automatically goes onto the TV.

I don't use MPCHC pixel shaders, but yes I can see why you don't use madvr. I have to say though, when the up sampling is set to Spline 4 tap the image is so good, much better than any of the other renderers I have tried.

I was looking at the MPCHC command line switches earlier today, did you know you can specify which monitor to open MPCHC on with the switch /monitor N, maybe that will help you out. You can put the "/monitor 2" switch in the command line used when opening file type "AVI" (or whichever).

EDIT : I lied ! Reclock doesn't re-adjust when I move a video between monitors, I was looking at the refresh rate not the playback rate. Never noticed this before as my movies always open up on the TV.
EDIT 2 : Think it's about time I upgraded my video card too, nothing too expensive as a newer one can only be better than the 8400GS, and that's served me really well so far.

[hello_hello]

I normally just use WMR9 as I'm on XP. While I was messing around the other day I did compare it to MadVR while resizing a 720p up to 1080p and MadVR was definitely a little better but there wasn't a lot in it. Nothing I could see unless I stopped the video on identical frames and switched between them. I can't remember which resizer in MPC-HC it was similar to (probably Bicubic) but I do mean to try again while resizing an average quality 480p video as that's where it starts to get ugly for me using a sharp resizer with MPC-HC, so the difference might be more noticeable.

Then there's the pixel shader problem. I use MPC-HC's BT.601 -> BT.709 shader quite a bit to convert the colors for SD video which was encoded from a HD source without converting them correctly. MadVR is clever enough to read the colorimetry info in the video stream and do it automatically for h264 video, but it can't do the same for AVIs.

MPC-BE seems to allow you to pick more ways to resize a video than MPC-HC (using the Internal filter's options). I haven't played with that yet but I probably will later.

I generally open video by double clicking on a file in Xplorer2 (http://www.zabkat.com/x2lite.htm), but maybe I could use a second instance of MPC-HC and set one to always open on the TV. That'd work..... at least when the TV's switched on. I'm not sure if you can do that in MPC-HC's options but I'll play around. Thinking about it, I could stick a few different shortcuts for MPC-HC in the Explorer SendTo right click menu which use different command line switches. It'd only take a second longer to open a video than double clicking. And I could probably even keep a few copies of MPC-HC installed which use different renderers or resizers or pixel shaders etc and open the appropriate one according to the SendTo shortcut I select. I've already got it installed more than once anyway (if you select "save settings to ini file" in MPC-HCs options it lets you have completely different setting for each copy you have installed). I'll probably play around with that idea a bit later when I'm not half asleep.

If only you could just double click on "any" video file and know it'll display "just right"........

[madhatter300871]

I also use XP, refuse to change it until it crumbles to dust !

I think you should see a noticeable improvement in 480p sources using madVR if you set the up scaling algorithms to Spline 4 tap, that was the thing that clinched it for me.

I set up handling of different videos with MPCHC in a different way. In explorer - folder options - file types I have selected which filetype opens with which application and then went into the advanced settings and added command line switches to the instance of MPCHC that I want to use.

So for AVI, for example, I set the file type to open with MPCHC using the command line <path to mpchc> /monitor 2 /play /fullscreen /close. Perhaps you could try this out aswell, then you can double click a file and not have to use send to.

On a side note, you could always write a small app that uses mediainfo to check the file and then, depending on the results, pass the file to your preferred MPCHC instance. Then, set that app as the default app to open your AVI's, MKV's or whatever. I wrote a similar app to pass video files from XBMC to MPCHC so that I got the behavior I wanted.

Do you use a remote control or do you sit at the keyboard. I suppose if your sat at the keyboard it doesn't really matter as much, it's nothing to click a few buttons is it. It's just nice to have it working exactly as you want it, I think.

[SamKook]

You'll only get rid of the tearing with madvr if you activate fullscreen exclusive mode which will obviously only work when the video is in full screen. There's also the overlay mode when not in fullscreen but that's only for win7(or vista, don't remember)+.

Activating Vsync(Vertical synchronization) in windows under your graphic card options should mostly get rid of the tearing for all renderers.

[madhatter300871]

I agree,I do use full screen exclusive mode.

I have been looking at the madvr settings today and there are keyboard shortcuts for toggling the colour primaries. Maybe you can have a play with them to see if that eliminates needing to use mpchc pixel shader.

[hello_hello]

I didn't try fullscreen exclusive mode this time because I recall hating it for some reason. I'll try again though.

I looked through my video card's control panel and couldn't find any Vsync options but maybe I'm missing the obvious. I did happen to wonder past the HDCP section though and noticed according to Nvidia my TV doesn't support it. The TV's only a year or so old. Did everyone stop bothering with HDCP or would my video card just be getting it wrong? I've never actually tried to play a Bluray disc using the PC, I don't think. I'm pretty sure I've always ripped/converted first, played second. Should I be able to and watch it on the TV in HD? Or have I found yet another reason not to upgrade XP? I've really got no idea how that HDCP crap works. I haven't thought about it for years.... until now.

[madhatter300871]

The vsync options are in reclock, in the advanced section. I disable all vsync options and use fullscreen exclusive mode in madvr. I really do get excellent results.

My nvidia control panel also says that my TV doesn't have HDCP, but I know that it does. I have connected a standalone bluray player a few times and it works fine.

On my projector, using the exact same model of video card, the nvidia control panel says hdcp is supported and active. If your TV has a hdmi input then I would bet money on it being hdcp compatible. I'm no expert, but from what I understand its an encrypted code between the player and the display so that nothing can be put in between for ripping purposes. Off course we just do that in software now anyway.

I have had monitors in work where the hdcp connection has failed to establish. The soulition is to turn off the pc, turn off the monitor, turn on the monitor, select the hdmi input, wait a moment, then turn on the PC. Maybe you can try it.

[madhatter300871]

I've just watched a 1 hour long program in fullscreen windowed mode, as opposed to fullscreen exclusive mode. Not one dropped frame, no tearing at all. Was perfect. Don't know if that helps you at all, just thought I should post.

[hello_hello]

Well before I start my rant on how I'm never going to upgrade or change software again, I started having audio sync problems when using InterFrame which seems to happen once I go over a certain input resolution (even though I'm resizing HD video down first to use it) so I tried a few things to fix it. It seems playing a video from the start it's in sync but it loses sync when you seek. The simplest solution (I assume you're decoding via directshow) seems to be to simply tell directshow to convert the original frame rate to the same frame rate. ie if the video is 23.976fps, this seems to do the trick:

DirectShowSource("E:\movie.mkv", fps=23.976, convertfps=true)

If you just want to use the same refresh rate all the time the following seems to work quite well for effectively converting 23.976fps to 50fps and it doesn't seem to mess with the audio sync. It does increase the pitch of the audio though, but if that bothers you telling ReClock not to time stretch when slowing down and using the PAL speeddown option under sound adaptation will fix it.

DirectShowSource("E:\movie.mkv", fps=23.976, convertfps=true)
AssumeFPS(25, 1, true)

I thought I'd also mention AVISynthesizer (http://tangentsoft.net/video/asynther/) if you don't know about it. It's a little utility for creating AVISynth scripts from the right click menu. You can create any script templates you want, so you could make one for 25fps video and another for 23.976fps etc. I use it all the time as a starting point when creating a script manually, but it'd be handy if you're using InterFame to watch video regularly via a script. There's sample templates in the installation folder and you can just open them with notepad.
So for me (single threaded) an AVISynthesizer template to open a 23.976fps video and watch it at 50fps might look like this:

#ASYNTHER Interframe - 23.976fps -> 50fps
[DirectShowSource("%f", fps=23.976, convertfps=true)]
AssumeFPS(25, 1, true)
InterFrame(Cores=1)

[madhatter300871]

Thanks for that info, I've added it to my "things to know about video playback" list.

[hello_hello]

I wasted hours trying to fix minor problems today so I think I'll be using the same OS, player, renderer etc for the rest of my life now......

Uninstalling SVP proved an adventure. Once I did, MPC-HC seemed to loose it's ability to decode h.264 with it's internal decoder, DXVA was no longer working and when opening mpeg2 video it'd crash. I didn't know it was possible for MPC-HC to not use it's internal decoders if they're enabled. In the end uninstalling both MPC-HC and ffdshow, re-installing them and rebooting fixed it, but I wasted a bit of time trying to work out why before I got there.
Then once that was done I discovered my most used MPC-HC pixel shader no longer worked. Well it did, but I spent a good half an hour trying to work out why it wasn't working before discovering it was..... sometimes. At some stage the pixel shader was re-written so it'll only work when playing HD video. Why, I have no idea, as to my way of thinking that's when you're least likely to need it, but until my uninstalling/re-installing effort of today I'd been using the same ini file for MPC-HC's settings each time I upgraded it, which obviously loaded the old version of the pixel shader rather than the new one. Silly me reset MPC-HC today, so then the old pixel shader was gone. So after learning how to edit pixel shaders and loading a copy of the original one from an old version of MPC-HC I could finally convert the colors when playing SD video again.

Anyway.... after all that, at least my tearing problem seems to be a thing of the past, even when using WMR9 and MPC-HC's Bicubic resizer. No tearing at 50fps even when playing video via an InterFrame script. I did upgrade Reclock to the latest version while I was at it, so maybe that's the reason, but I don't know why it would be. I was using the previous to last version so it should work okay.

I did lots of experimenting with MadVR vs WMR9 and no doubt it's better, but now the tearing isn't an issue I think I'll stick with the WMR9 renderer. Any quality improvement MadVR offered seemed pretty minimal to me, at least not enough to outway a few of it's annoyances. Reclock not changing the speed correctly when I move the video from one monitor to another was the main one but it seemed to do a couple of other slightly annoying things such as right clicking on the video while MPC-HC was running full screen on the TV forced me to minimise all the programs running on the PC monitor before they'd refresh properly a couple of times, and clicking on the video on the TV brought up the right click menu for the program running on the PC monitor once or twice. And there's an oddity with the MadVR icon near the clock.... I think if I opened a video on one monitor, moved the player to the other then opened a different video, the icon would disappear and not return until I closed the player and open it again.

I thought I'd give the EVR renderer a spin but I discovered pretty quickly Microsoft don't seemed to have changed anything since WMR9 in terms of resolution/colorimetry choice. It displays 1280x544 video using R.601 instead of R.709 just like WMR9 does. Sigh.....

I couldn't get Reclock's Vsync correction to work with WMR9 no matter what I did. It works with WMR7 but not WMR9. Well if I open video via an AVISynth script it works with WMR9 but if I open a video directly it won't. I've no idea why. Oh well..... I guess I don't need the Vsync correction now anyway. How do you get MadVR to run a tearing test? ReClock's doesn't work with MadVR, nor does the MPC-HC tearing test and MadVR doesn't seem to have one of it's own, unless I'm missing the obvious. Not that I could see any tearing but I assumed there'd be a way to run a tearing test while using it.

Anyway, I guess all I've got left to do is try a multithreaded version of AVISynth to see if I can use an InterFrame script to watch HD video. Currently a width of 720 seems to be all it'll do without stuttering, so I'm using ffdshow to resize everything down while using Interframe and that seems to work fine. That's where my audio sync problems started though. If I use InterFrame to change the frame rate of a 480p video the audio stays in sync. If I use it to change the frame rate of a 720p video after ffdshow has resized it down to 480p the audio goes out of sync. I've no idea why as none of the CPU cores are hitting 100% that way, but eventually I worked out adding the frame rate conversion stuff to the directshow script fixes it. Computers.....

[madhatter300871]

WOW, quite an adventure. Sorry you had all that trouble, and you only installed SVP because we where chatting about it here.

I must admit, I didn't install SVP because I wanted to take things slowly, and looking at your troubles i don't think I'll bother. Like you, I have my PC working just the way i want it (on the whole) and am reluctant to install things.

I still find that madvR upscales much better than any of the other renderers I have used. My Nvidia 8400GS seems to be happy with upscaling algorithms being set to bicubic, GPU usage is about 60%.

I have tried running the tearing test using madvr, and your right, I can't either.

[hello_hello]

I'll admit I'm not really seeing it. I've compared MadVR's Bicubic resizer to MPC-HC's Bicubic resizer and when they're matched for sharpness I can't tell them apart when upscaling. I've literally paused the same video on identical frames on my Plasma and switched between them. Running fullscreen while sitting a few feet away and I can't see a difference.

The Bicubic resizer's a bit sharp for my taste anyway. I prefer a little softer with less enhancing of the artefacts. Mainly because when resizing SD video there's a big difference between the two, but by the time you're resizing up a decent quality 720p video there's a lot less between them. Each to their own, I guess.....

[madhatter300871]

Each to their own indeed. I think, though, this conversation has tempted me to check out the other common renderers again. It will be fun !

[madhatter300871]

I re-encoded the hunger games, using svp, to make a 50fps video. Re-encoded the audio accordingly. WOW, the result is amazing, I have to say. Everything is so much sharper and, obviously, fluid.

I have some questions but I will post them in a seperate thread as i suppose it is going off my initial question here.