How is this done, please?

[neil wilkes]

I've been trying to work this one out for ages now and for the life of me I cannot seem to do so.

On DVD-A/V titles, it is very common for the Video_TS content to consist of LPCM stereo & DTS (or AC3 & DTS) with the accompanying "video" file being comprised of what seems to be a single still image with navigational options. The Nav is easy - I know how to do that. What I cannot work out os how to encode the video file so that what reads as a 30fps (probably 29.97) NTSC M2V file that runs for (to use an example from a disc I have here) 46 minutes, yet the "video" file is vanishingly small.

My usual method is to make a low bitrate movie from TIFF images, using a rate of around 2500kbps - but this is giving me a file size that is simply too large. Is there any way to reduce the size?

[manono]

Is there any way to reduce the size?
One way is Muxman. Load a DVD compliant 720x480/576 BMP for the video, load the 2 audio files, give it a destination and 'Start'.

[neil wilkes]

One way is Muxman. Load a DVD compliant 720x480/576 BMP for the video, load the 2 audio files, give it a destination and 'Start'.

Thank you - I will definitely give this a try.
What will it spit out at the other end please? (I need an M2V)

[manono]

It'll give you a DVD. The M2V can be demuxed afterwards (PGCDemux, DGIndex, etc.).

You can also encode a DVD compliant BMP directly to M2V/MPV in any MPEG-2 encoder via an AviSynth script. I often use the 'M2V-Maker' of the free authoring program DVDAuthorGUI to make one or two-frame M2Vs. I later use them as menus, but there's nothing to prevent you from just taking the M2V it makes (it gives you the choice of how many frames you want) and then closing the program. I just tested making one from a 720x480 BMP. The resulting 2-frame M2V was 62 KB in size. Small enough? :)

[neil wilkes]

So what sort of file size would the resulting M2V files be?
I have discovered that demuxing these can give large sizes - which is what I am trying to avoid.
The idea is to get a single image for an entire song duration.......
I do not know how to use AviSynth....
Tools available at this point are Scenarist SD (3.4.3), CinemaCraft CCE-SP3.

[manono]

So what sort of file size would the resulting M2V files be?
At some point you'll have to do this for yourself and test. I told you I created a 2-frame M2V from a BMP using DVDAuthorGUI that was 62 KB. Just now I muxed a 720x480 BMP with an AC3 track about 3.5 minutes long using Muxman. I then demuxed the M2V using PGCDemux and it was 144 KB. After that I took the same 720x480 BMP, this time authoring it for DVD using Muxman with an AC3 audio track over two and a half hours long. I demuxed the M2V using PGCDemux and it was the same 144 KB in size.
I do not know how to use AviSynth....
DVDAuthorGUI will do this for you and you don't have to know anything. It's in Menus->Create M2V Still:

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/DVDAuthorgui

[mp3dom]

Uhmm, why don't you do this directly into Scenarist? Scenarist can import BMP/TIFF (maybe jpeg) and encode it as 1 I-frame M2V. You can use it then as a still menu or as slide-show (with music) which is what you need.

[neil wilkes]

Uhmm, why don't you do this directly into Scenarist? Scenarist can import BMP/TIFF (maybe jpeg) and encode it as 1 I-frame M2V. You can use it then as a still menu or as slide-show (with music) which is what you need.

'Cos this will not work - there is a limitation of 1Gb for all menus.

Also in Scenarist, I cannot create a slideshow with segues - it puts the breaks in the wrong place, and they cannot be seamless slideshows with Chapter (song) markers. The only way to do this is with a low bitrate MPEG-2 file in Scenarist - another problem is that the resulting Video_TS is to be imported into DAC for an Audio_TS, and this prevents me taking a stack of slideshows (each with 2 audio streams, one 24-bit stereo & one DTS) and setting POST of one to the PRE of the next - all VTS titles must be set for sequential playback, and "joining the dots" throws a spec error on importing into DAC. :(

The list of restrictions is quite severe.......

[neil wilkes]

At some point you'll have to do this for yourself and test. I told you I created a 2-frame M2V from a BMP using DVDAuthorGUI that was 62 KB. Just now I muxed a 720x480 BMP with an AC3 track about 3.5 minutes long using Muxman. I then demuxed the M2V using PGCDemux and it was 144 KB. After that I took the same 720x480 BMP, this time authoring it for DVD using Muxman with an AC3 audio track over two and a half hours long. I demuxed the M2V using PGCDemux and it was the same 144 KB in size.

DVDAuthorGUI will do this for you and you don't have to know anything. It's in Menus->Create M2V Still:

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/DVDAuthorgui

This looks promising.
One more picky little question (if you don't mind?)
Will the demuxed M2V allow me to stick this - along with the stereo & DTS - into a track, and set Chapter markers (scene markers) for each song? If it will - we could be onto a winner here!!

[mp3dom]

Probably I've not understand you very well, but you can put the slideshow in the VTS (you're not forced to have it as VMG). In that case you can put as much songs as you want until you reach the disc fullness. If you have 1 still for each song you should be able to put chapters with smooth transition as long as you don't use cell commands (which prevents the seamless).

[neil wilkes]

Probably I've not understand you very well, but you can put the slideshow in the VTS (you're not forced to have it as VMG). In that case you can put as much songs as you want until you reach the disc fullness. If you have 1 still for each song you should be able to put chapters with smooth transition as long as you don't use cell commands (which prevents the seamless).

Yes, but I cannot make it seamless - Scenarist will not do this.
Slideshows cannot have multi-chapter access either. This is direct from Sonic Support - they tell me there is no way to either
A - Have a single contiguous stream, with multiple songs & chapter marker access, or
B - Set up several individual slideshows (one per song) and have it behave seamlessly as Scenarist does not do this at the cell level but at the VOBU level instead - it is one too high.
I can do it by butting things up, but this fails on 2 counts:
1 - Still not seamless, so some players will empty the buffers at this point & cause a glitch in audio playback if the transition between the 2 songs is a segue and not silence, and
2 - The spec limitation for DVD-A import says all titles shall be set for sequential playback. Having one linking to 2 and so on throws compliance errors.

It's a bugger, it really is. Sonic's DVD Creator allows this to work, but not Scenarist.

[neil wilkes]

Here's the restrictions I am needing to comply with.

It comes down to how Scenarist DVD creates slideshows, as there are two methods available. One is putting each slide in a separate VOBU, and the other is using separate Cells. Scenarist SD uses the former, and unfortunately chapter points are only possible when using the latter.

[mp3dom]

I can't see the attachment yet, but according to the restrictions you mention, the old Spruce DVDMaestro should do the job (and it also do the BMP->1 frame M2V conversion by itself)

[neil wilkes]

I think the attachment is still awaiting approval - that's what it seems to say here anyway....
Spruce Maestro is a great idea - it should indeed do this - but I cannot buy it any more these days so not really an option, sadly.
DVDSP is no use either - it's mac OS, and we are decidely PC here, plus it's an abstraction layer jobbie......definitely a no-no.

[manono]

Will the demuxed M2V allow me to stick this - along with the stereo & DTS - into a track, and set Chapter markers (scene markers) for each song?
Yes. Muxman uses frame numbers for chapter markers and you create the Celltimes.txt (as it's called) yourself and load it into Muxman with File->Import Chapter. And the frame numbers are 29.97fps frame numbers and have to be set on I-Frames (as you know). The free version of Muxman doesn't make menus, but only authors. The paid version ($35.00, I think) also allows for menus:

http://stnsoft.com/Muxman/versions.shtml

But there's nothing to prevent you from making your menus somewhere else and later replacing the 'dummy DVD' you created with the Muxman created one. I do that all the time using VobBlanker or PGCEdit.

[neil wilkes]

This is definitely looking promising.
Here's the thing I still cannot fathom though.
How can I create a 14-image single frame M2V fileset that has a single image per song, and only has one frame per image?
DVDAuthorGUI will not let me add multiple single frame M2V files (I do *not*, under any circumstances, want this to be a menu - it has to be a proper track/timeline).
It would appear from the description above I need to initially create every 1-frame M2V file first, then load these into MuxMan?
What do I do next - how do I make every track get a different image and still use a single contiguous stream please?

In addition, when I compiled in DVDAuthorGUI, I get an M2V file and nothing else. This looks promising, but how do I stretch this across a whole song, and more to the point, how do I get all 14 images into one very small file?

[manono]

In addition, when I compiled in DVDAuthorGUI, I get an M2V file and nothing else.
Which is what you asked for. Now you're changing the requirements.

I know how I'd do it, if I had to. I'd make a 'Dummy' DVD with the required number of chapters in DVDAuthorGUI (or your favorite authoring program). Just a short DVD with however many chapters you'll need. Make one of a 3 minute music video or something similar with the chapters spread every 10 secods. The spacing doesn't matter. Make that little 'mini-DVD' and then when all done, open it in VobBlanker and replace each chapter with the 'real' one you created in Muxman, a song you made using Muxman, one for each song.

It would appear from the description above I need to initially create every 1-frame M2V file first, then load these into MuxMan?

That's not at all what I said. I said Muxman takes BMPs. You add in the audio and the DVD you make lasts the length of the audio. It takes M2Vs as well, but BMPs are easier. The only reason I mentioned DVDAuthorGUI was because you were insisting you wanted M2Vs and didn't know any AviSynth or much of anything else, apparently. OK, there's your M2Vs.
What do I do next - how do I make every track get a different image and still use a single contiguous stream please?
That's the first time you've mentioned anything like that. I explained how I'd do it above. I've never used any authoring programs that cost any money, and maybe one of them can do it. Have you done any actual work on this yet, or will you be asking questions ad nauseam?

[neil wilkes]

Pardon me, I'm sure! I thought the whole point of forums was to ask questions when you do not know how to do something.
I've been trying to get this done for weeks now, and getting nowhere.
Scenarist cannot do this - it creates slideshows at the VOBU level instead of the cell level, and it cannot be an abstraction layer tool either. I've just bought MuxMan, and am waiting for a download link to turn up so will give that a try when I can.

Please do not misunderstand - I am certainly not ungrateful for the assistance thus far & furthermore I apologise if I did not mention the entire details at the initial post. I shall post back once I get a download of MuxMan and try it out.

[manono]

One would have thought that by now you'd have at least tried the free version of Muxman by adding a BMP and the two audio tracks to check if it creates the songs the way you want. Nowhere did I recommend buying the commercial version, except to mention that you can create menus using the Pro version. But you may find it's not all that easy to do so. Anyway, nothing I've suggested requires spending a dime. But Muxman is an excellent authoring program and maybe you'll consider it money well spent once you learn your way around it. Maybe it'll even allow you to create each song as a cell, instead of as a separate title as most authoring programs do it. I don't know as I've never used the Pro version.

Sure, questions are welcomed. So is reading and researching, experimenting and trying out the ideas suggested.

[neil wilkes]

Never said you did recommend buying the paid version - but at $35, it is not what you might call pricey in anybody's language, so why not? I could not think of a single reason not to go for it and if it works, then it will be great VFM but if it does not then I have not exactly lost out.
Researching? I have tried everywhere & everyone until I posted here, and to a man I am getting told by one & all that what I want to do cannot be done in Scenarist - period. I am told it can be done in Maestro, but that is impossible to buy nowadays. I am also told it is possible in Sonic's DVD Creator - which is also unavailable these days. DVD-Lab Pro will do what I need, but it is so buggy in other areas that it is utterly, hopelessly inadequate for the project I have in mind. However - thinking out loud - DLP might get me the M2V file I need if I can successfully demux the bugger and keep the small file sizes.........and these can get imported into Scenarist.

I have not posted full details of the project as this would not onlyu take too much time and space, but it is mainly irrelevant. Suffice it to say DLP cannot handle the complexity - despite the claims for it - as it cannot cope with the number of screens required or the number of VTS required or the number of cells in the menus I require. This is the problem with a lot of authoring tools - they work directly with the actual assets and run out of memory very, very quickly. Scenarist works with references to the files and not the actual assets so is more efficient and Sonic's DAC (for the Audio_TS) uses XML files only so is not only rock solid stable but again never runs out of memory. Please, I beg you, never try to say I have not researched these things.

I will reiterate exactly what is needed here - and this needs to be understood in the context of the restrictions I posted above.
1 - I need what is effectively an M2V file but without the M2V file sizes.
2 - I need 2 audio streams.
3 - These must be one single contiguous file, set to seamless playback. Simply setting Post command of song A to the pre command of Song B is not allowed.
4 - I have to live with those picky restrictions posted above
5 - The sole reason I have never got to this before (despite authoring several dozen DVD-A/V titles commercially available) is because this is the first time I have not been able to work around the issues in one way or another along with the additional problem that this disc will be stuffed to the gills with content. Tight is not the word!!

I will post back later when I have tried these ideas as well as a couple I just had myself.
I very much appreciate the suggestions so far though - very much indeed.

[neil wilkes]

Progress, but I have hit a brick wall.
I can create the VOB files easily enough with MuxMan (great tip - many thanks)
However, when the M2V file is demuxed, the resulting M2V file imports into Scenarist at 14 frames long.........how can I demux it so that it retains the correct length, and can be imported into Scenarist?

[manono]

However, when the M2V file is demuxed, the resulting M2V file imports into Scenarist at 14 frames long.........how can I demux it so that it retains the correct length, and can be imported into Scenarist?
The correct length? Meaning the length of the song? I thought the whole idea was to keep the M2V small, right? If you want it the 'correct length', encode it to be the length of the song. But it won't be 144 KB in size (or whatever you got after demuxing it). You can't have it both ways.

[neil wilkes]

That's the problem - it is not demuxing to the length of the song.
I can create the VOB with the correct duration and the correct markers in MuxMan, but there seems to be no way of getting this into Scenarist. This causes a huge headache, and effectively scraps the entire project if it cannot be done.
My problem is that I need to use non abstraction layer authoring tools to make the Video_TS to spec, and AFAIK only DVD Creator & Maestro - both of which are unavailable - will do the job.

This is why I originally asked how to make a low bitrate MPEG-2 file (not a DVD image or file set) with a single still image per song.
It would seem it is impossible with legally available software these days - that is a bugger.
It used to be feasible, DVD-Lab Pro has the potential but too many bugs & Scenarist will simply not accept a VOB by the look of it.
Is it possible to exchange VOB files in something like PGCEdit, I wonder.......I shall have a look.

Damn.

[setarip_old]

@neil wilkes

Hi!

Read the ENTIRE thread that I've posted a link to here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=777757#post777757

It may provide the answers you are seeking...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Neil...

You placed a very similar request in this previous topic (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=166039)!

[manono]

Is it possible to exchange VOB files in something like PGCEdit, I wonder.......
Now you're on the right track. Although I suggested exactly the same thing in an earlier reply.

The others have suggested different methods, but I've done the same thing you want myself on numerous occasions. Not the single image part, but replacing cells with the cells I really want.

You want to use Scenarist, right? So import anything that's DVD compliant with 2 audio tracks into Scenarist. Use one of your songs but with a full length M2V. You'll be making a 'Dummy' DVD and later replacing the cells with the real songs you want.

Make the DVD however you want in Scenarist. Make your menus. Make sure to create the same number of cells you'll be needing for your final DVD. Also, create a little 'Mini-DVD' for each of your songs using Muxman - a still image BMP and your two audio tracks for each song. These songs will later become the cells for your final DVD. When all done open this 'Dummy' DVD in VobBlanker (not PGCEdit).

Highlight the video so it appears in the bottom screen. Highlight it in the lower screen and hit 'Cells' off to the right and a new screen will pop up showing you all the cells of your 'Dummy DVD'. Highlight each one in turn and hit the 'Replace' button and scroll to the song you want for that cell and double-click on its VTS_01_1.VOB. When you've done that for all the cells hit 'Apply' at the bottom to go back to the main screen. Give it an 'Output Folder', hit 'Process', wait, and test it out.

Maybe the links in the two posts above will give you some clues how to do it differently. This is how I always do it myself but I don't seem to be able to ever get through to you.

[neil wilkes]

Sorry if I am coming across as dense, but the problem I am having is that Sonic are telling me this cannot be done how I need it to be done. I am definitely going to try swapping over the entire title but apparently this will still not allow me to put chapters into the result.
If I am getting confused, let me try & show you why: (this is a reply from Sonic)

I'm sorry to say there's no way to create what you're trying to do. I know the issue you're referring to and there's never been a way to do what you're trying to do within Scenarist.

No matter how you cut it each chapter has to be done with video background. You'd have to composite the whole back ground and bring it in over the audio. Then you can have chapters. I realize it's not as efficient as a slide show but it's the only option that Scenarist allows. I can't say I have ever understood the problem in setting it up with chapters but it's never been implemented. I guess because it's not been very often requested. In any even,t development has stopped on the product.

I do not know of a workaround.



This is why I asked here again.
MuxMan has nicely created the VOB I need for me, and I am going to try swapping this out by creating a VTS in Scenarist with a dummy PGC, but all these workarounds still leave me without a way to actually address the resulting chapters in Scenarist.
I can make things work with no segues in the tracks, but with segued tracks it is frankly a nightmare.
Please bear in mind this is not regular DVD-V, but hybrid DVD-A/V and there are restrictions on what I can do in the Video_TS.

I'm going to give all these suggestions a try over the weekend and see what happens. If it works, great. Nobody will be happier than me as it will save valuable space on this particular project - normally a low bitrate M2V file is fine, but not in this case. The problem is further compounded by the complexity of the navigation (as designed) as every menu is a multi-celled one which on reflection may give me more issues - what exactly does Cell Stills and VOBU Stills shall not be defined mean?

Again, I apologise if I am coming across as stupid, but I have tried so many of these workarounds & so far they have all thrown spec errors on importing into Sonic/MEI DVD-Audio Creator. If I get a spec error, I can continue with the import of the Video_TS but run a real risk of having the replication plant reject the master even if the resulting disc is actually playable because a spec error means a player built to strict spec might fail to play it.

All that said, I will definitely try these options over the weekend and I really am grateful for the pointers.

[neil wilkes]

Neil...

You placed a very similar request in this previous topic (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=166039)!

Yes, I know, and it got nowhere.
DVD-Lab Pro will do what I need for basic, simple projects but not for seriously complex ones (I know I did not post full project details there but I am under some restrictions as to what I can & cannot do) and it is also very buggy.
As pointed out in that thread, DLP's image encoder is not great (although it will work in SS modes if you feed it 960x540 Square Pixel images a lot better than 720x480 non square), there is the incorrect seamless flag setting (easy fix in PGCEdit though) and there are the terrible problems getting a multi-VTS title to actually compile in the first place. Go past 6 VTS, and it is pot luck, go past 7 and it will usually just not compile but throw a memory error instead. Those problems aside, we have done several dozen DVD-A/V using DLP Pro for the Video_TS but the current job is too complex for DLP to compile so I cannot use it.

Abstraction Layer tools are unusable because they produce spec violations when the Video_TS gets imported into MEI. DLP allows me to turn the AL off (which is great).

I am definitely investigating use of MuxMan with attempting to swap over complete VTS titles in PGCEdit - maybe , just maybe, this will work if I create the VTS title in Scenarist with the low bitrate M2V file already created at 851MB - complete with all chapters - and swap this for a muxman created Slideshow that creates it at the right level I need. Fingers crossed this one works.

[setarip_old]

I'm going to give all these suggestions a try over the weekendDon't overlook the thread I provided a link for...

[GrofLuigi]

Probably I'm missing something, but why can't it be done like this (I tried it and it works):

In Muxman, added two .bmp-s. Set the duration of the first one to 10 seconds.

http://i.imgur.com/h5Q0X.png

Chapter.txt consists of only two lines:
0
250

The audio is one file (you concatenate all your songs). Also, I think Muxman allows concatenated audio tracks or concatenates them for you.

http://i.imgur.com/FLKwx.png

As far as I can see, the resulting DVD plays as intended (or as I understood it's intended to) - no interuption of audio during playback, the image changed at the desired time. And the .Vob is only slightly larger than the .Wav, meaning it didn't waste much bitrate.

GL

[manono]

Good one, GrofLuigi. I never noticed you could set the BMPs to play for the length you want. I'm not sure why not as I've used Muxman a few thousand times and have added 2 or more M2Vs lots of times and done a few muxes with a single BMP. I've just never used multiple BMPs for the video. SeeMoreDigital mentioned it in his link above and I overlooked the implications (as did neil, I think). And that's right, you can add all the audio tracks separately using the 'Add' button as you did with the BMPs and they'll effectively be joined into a single big audio track.

neil wilkes will have to know the exact length of each audio track. I use HeadAC3he for that, but there are other ways, I'm sure. And he'll have to create a Celltimes.txt based on the frame numbers given to him by Muxman. I don't believe you include the '0', though. I don't think yours was accepted because the main screen says 'No chapters'. Or did you just not load it before making that picture?

Then after making his menu in Sonic Scenarist (along with a dummy video to be replaced later on), neil wilkes can replace that video with the DVD made in Muxman using the 'Replace' button in VobBlanker or File->Replace VTST Title in PGCEdit. A very elegant solution, I think.

[GrofLuigi]

I don't believe you include the '0', though. I don't think yours was accepted because the main screen says 'No chapters'. Or did you just not load it before making that picture?

It accepted it, this screenshot was a re-creation because the first time Muxman exited when done.

GL