What do you convert HD DVD audio to ? (E-ac3)

[Destructabomb]

After finally figuring out how to convert Blu Ray to MKV Ive tried to do the same to some of my HD DVD collection. Video works fine but i was wondering what you guys tend to convert the audio to. Most videos contain the Dolby Digital plus audio and Ive tried to convert to Ac3 but it doesn't sound as good as the original which is disappointing. I have also tried FLAC although this sounds much better on the PC the audio will not work on any of my players. I was wondering if there was some compromise. For reference im using MakeMKV to copy the film to the HDD. I use ripbot for the video encoding (but separate the audio using TSmuxer beforehand to keep original when copying blu rays).

Any help would be great

Thanks

[Blue_MiSfit]

That's quite surprising to me. AC3 at 640kbps is pretty damned good... Are you sure it's not just the placebo effect?

You could probably just preserve the E-AC3 audio. It's allowed in BluRay and will probably work on your standalone players.

Oh... moved to the Audio Encoding forum, as this thread has nothing to do with MPEG-4 AVC / H.264 encoding.

[mp3dom]

E-AC3 on bluray is an optional codec, and allowed only for a 6.1/7.1 configuration, where the E-AC3 extension is for replacement of the rear channels only. Basically it works in a similar way to TrueHD or dts-HD. There's the AC3 5.1 core at 640Kbps (for players that doesn't support it) + the E-AC3 extension for rear channels. Total sum of bitrate is up to 3 Mbps. At those data-rates a TrueHD or dts-HD is a better solution. This also explain why there are no DD+ 5.1 on blurays.

[Ghitulescu]

... it doesn't sound as good as the original which is disappointing...

What kind of videos have an audio so sensible to this reencoding?
There are people outthere that cannot distinguish an MP3 from a WAV it originates, so I assume there's an issue with the converter.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Just to let you know...

If you ever intend to upgrade to a network connected media player or "Smart TV" I can confirm that all my HD-DVD back-ups that contain Dolby Digital Plus audio (in .MKV) work perfectly. I'm also able to pass the Dolby Digital Plus bit-stream to an external surround sound amplifier via HDMI ;)

[Destructabomb]

Thanks for the help everyone. Just to inform ive tried another video "Hot Fuzz" with a 5.1 E-Ac3 soundtrack on my players. The video works no problem but the audio is not. How would i go about extracting the AC3 "Core" from this soundtrack. The hot fuzz track is "Dolby Digital Plus 5.1ex". I have the audio and video separated so only need to put back together using mkvmerge. In response to Ghitulescu i once tried the audio with these using vidcoder (this was before i started to separate the audio and video files as i now do) using the AC3 FFMPEG option. I could tell a lack of quality was happening due to the fact that during the main action scenes the gun effects sounded completely different. I compared the original to the new one i had done and it was instantly noticeable. If there was a way for myself to extract the core from the Dolby Digital plus im assuming there wouldnt be this lack in quality ?

Thanks

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks for the help everyone. Just to inform ive tried another video "Hot Fuzz" with a 5.1 E-Ac3 soundtrack on my players. The video works no problem but the audio is not.
What are your players?

By the way. Dolby Digital Plus is encoded/stored differently on HD-DVD to Blu-ray. On HD-DVD it does not have a "core"...

[Destructabomb]

What are your players?

I have tried on a Sony S380 (Blu Ray Player) " High Definition audio codecs - Supports Dolby® TrueHD and Dolby® Digital Plus, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, and DTS-HD Master Audio codecs"

Marantz UD5005 - Decoder: Dolby Digital Plus / Dolby TrueHD / DTS HD Yes / Yes / Yes

My entire process is this (incase you have any suggestions of how i can get it to work)

1.HD DVD to mkv using MakeMKV
2. Separate the audio and video of this mkv using TSmuxer.
3. "Shrink" the video using Ripbot to a certain file size (video files work no problem)
4. Put the newly encoded video and original audio back together using MKVmerge.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I actually used DVDFab Passkey to rip my HD-DVD's to .EVO files. And EVOdemux to de-mux the .EVO files to elementary streams.

The required elementary streams were then dragged and dropped into MKVmerge GUI. I also visited the "Extra Options" tab and under the "Compression" option I selected "None" for each stream.

I did not bother to "shrink" the video...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that it's also possible to drag and drop full .EVO files into MKVmerge GUI and remove any unwanted audio streams.

[Destructabomb]

I actually used DVDFab Passkey to rip my HD-DVD's. And EVOdemux to de-mux the elementary streams.

The elementary streams were then dragged and dropped into MKVmerge GUI. I also visited the "Extra Options" tab and under the "Compression" option I selected "None" for each stream.

I did not bother to "shrink" the video...

Ill try that and let you know how it goes. Thanks

[Ghitulescu]

I have tried on a Sony S380 (Blu Ray Player) " High Definition audio codecs - Supports Dolby® TrueHD and Dolby® Digital Plus, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, and DTS-HD Master Audio codecs"

Marantz UD5005 - Decoder: Dolby Digital Plus / Dolby TrueHD / DTS HD Yes / Yes / Yes

My entire process is this (incase you have any suggestions of how i can get it to work)

1.HD DVD to mkv using MakeMKV
2. Separate the audio and video of this mkv using TSmuxer.
3. "Shrink" the video using Ripbot to a certain file size (video files work no problem)
4. Put the newly encoded video and original audio back together using MKVmerge.

As usual, my sugegstion is to try the BDMV format first, a lot of features are not implemented for MKV files, which is no wonder since none of your player is an MKVplayer, just regular BDplayers :)

[pandy]

I use ffmpeg however E-AC3 is not recognized by many containers, this is funny because ffmpeg is able to produce valid (at least recognized as) E-AC3 elementary stream.

[lchiu7]

I ripped all my HD-DVD to AVCHD format and burnt them to DL DVD so I could play them on my Oppo BDP-80 and retire my Toshiba HD-DVD player. They all have either DD+ or TrueHD audio. Then I found I could just take the .m2t files off the discs, put them on a HD and play them fine with my Popcorn Hour.

As a rule I never put my own rips to MKV -I really can't see the point of doing that. I usually just rip and mux back to .m2ts format which as a container can handle all the HD Audio codecs fine.

[Turtleggjp]

As a rule I never put my own rips to MKV -I really can't see the point of doing that. I usually just rip and mux back to .m2ts format which as a container can handle all the HD Audio codecs fine.

Two reasons why I use MKV for my Blu Ray rips:

1. MKVs are significantly smaller than M2TS files (due to the massive container overhead in M2TS, not due to recompression)

2. MKVs can have chapters, while M2TS cannot, at least not by itself (full Blu Ray / AVCHD structure is required for that).

I believe that MKV can also support all the HD audio codecs now, including subtitles. Since I only use players that support MKV (MythTV on an NVIDIA ION system, or Media Player Classic Home Cinema on Windows), I have no issues playing my MKV rips.

Matt

[ramicio]

MKV can pretty much support anything you can throw at it. The shortcomings you see are not the format, but the crappy standalone players that can't deal with certain codecs in certain containers. It's less of a hassle to just build some low-power Atom or AMD APU system.

[shon3i]

Both TrueHD and EAC3 for HDDVD not need AC3 core, and it's not problem to convert TrueHD stream to Blu-Ray compatible, eac3to will do for you, but there is no solution for EAC3 yet. I suppose is same like for TrueHD just need to embed AC3 track to stream.

[ramicio]

DD+ (E-AC-3) is its own codec. It doesn't do anything relating to a core.

[shon3i]

DD+ (E-AC-3) is its own codec. It doesn't do anything relating to a core.
Yes, but for blu-ray compatibility need to have embedded AC3 track (can be called core) which need for compatibility, but yes, that is totally 2 independent streams, 2 lossy streams. Unlike DTS-HD HR also lossy compression but HR part is depended of core DTS like DTS-MA. I think should not be complicate to make eac3to or some other tool that will convert HDDVD eac3 to compatible Blu-Ray eac3 without quality loss, like manipulating with TrueHD.

[ramicio]

It's only ever used to carry the extra channels of a 6.1 or 7.1 track. The OP wants to convert HD-DVD to MKV, not to Blu-ray, so it's irrelevant making a "Blu-ray compatible" E-AC-3 stream. There isn't even such thing, since it can't be used alone on a Blu-ray. It's just a complement to AC-3 to give 6.1 or 7.1. Has this even ever been done? It sounds like such a stupid idea I don't think any self-respecting studio would even bother.

[shon3i]

Mainly for deliver extra channels, but also better quality, since EAC3 can go up to 1.5mbps, you can use it for 5.1 or other channel configuration, keep better quality, but AC3 substream like on TrueHD must be present for compatibility and metadata which control decoding. Reason why am talking about this is because mainly i heard that receivers will not play EAC3 stream that not contain substream/core, and usually follow Blu-Ray specs, so it's impossible to play EAC3 from HDDVD since is one independent stream. But like OP says, converting will for sure degrade some quality, converting to some lossless also not good option since also not supported by receiver, so only valid should be converting HDDVD EAC3 to BD EAC3 keeping all quality, but there is no tool available to do. There is dolby demo BD disc that contain EAC3 compatible for BD.

Btw better explanation can be found in BD specs on 9.9.2 chapter.

[ramicio]

No, it's not impossible for a receiver to decode E-AC-3 from an HD-DVD. E-AC-3 is out of spec on Blu-ray if it's used for anything but an additional 1 or 2 channels. Again, I don't know why you keep bringing up transferring to Blu-ray when the OP just wants to make MKVs from this HD-DVDs. There is no available tool to do so simply because Blu-ray doesn't support E-AC-3 being used for anything other than an extra 1 or 2 channels alongside an AC-3 track.

[shon3i]

Is not matter of container is matter of stream itself, receiver or player that follow BD specs (many of them) will not able to play that kind of stream, like converting HDDVD TrueHD to BD TrueHD enable normal playback, so why not do same with EAC3. And it's not true that EAC3 is only for additional channels, read BD specs chapter 9.9.2. Also Dolby Demo have Stereo and 5.1 EAC3 streams, they used little higher bitrate to show listener little better fidelity than classic AC3.

[ramicio]

A receiver does not care where an E-AC-3 stream comes from. Wrong again. I can't even find any specs that go up to 9 chapters, anywhere, so you're wrong until you provide me that document. The Dolby demo thing is null and void, too, because you didn't mention anything else about it, like what media it is on.

[shon3i]

Receiver just follow some rules, so if follow BD is normally to play BD compatible stream and not other, it's same for video. BD Specs is confidential document, so i can't help you, and Dolby demo disc you can buy (i think). So you are wrong whole time, or you read wikipedia too much. I maybe can provide one BD compatible EAC3 for testing that all. But i will see if i found way for proper extraction from m2ts.

[ramicio]

So you won't provide documentation. Again, a receiver does not KNOW if a stream is from a blu-ray or an HD-DVD.

[shon3i]

The whole point: it wont play HDDVD eac3, is that hard to understand? Like petrol car will not go on disel, what else you need to know ? I am just have access to specs that all you need to know.

[ramicio]

What are you talking about? What receiver won't play it? The bitstream is the same after it leaves whatever player.

[shon3i]

I am talking about player that will not decode HDDVD EAC3 or bitstreming to reciver directly not matter is MKV or M2TS or anything since EAC3 is not BD compatible, because most of them follow BD specs.

[ramicio]

What player? You keep getting more and more vague. E-AC-3 is E-AC-3 when it hits the receiver. A player won't stream E-AC-3 from M2TS, since it's not compatible on Blu-ray as a standalone codec.

[shon3i]

You are kidding me right? I think i been clear enough. But i wll sum what we have here.

The OP needs convert HDDVD to MKV, that is ok, but since most HDDVD's (98%) came with EAC3 as primary and only audio, that is fine to keep, since will keep quality. That MKV will play on any PC like OP says, but will play without audio on any BD player that can play MKV or other player that follow BD specs, or receiver that get bitstream from HDMI also usually need BD compatible stream, there is probably players that plays fine HDDVD EAC3 but since EAC3 is not mandatory anymore i doubt is some exist, so that sound needs to be converted to something that can be played. Since there is no much choice, because FLAC or other non standard codes, even AAC is not favored in this circles, the only way is make EAC3 to be BD compatible.

As i promise i will post later some EAC3+ 5.1 file that is BD compatible. So is not coded for extra channel.

[Guest]

@ramicio

Knock off the insults and profanity. Thank you. Follow up to PM if you must, don't reply here.

[ramicio]

You are kidding me right?

It doesn't matter if it's a blu-ray player. It's not playing a blu-ray, it's playing a file. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE THE HELL THE E-AC-3 CAME FROM. It's not playing because the player is a piece of crap and has a VERY strict set of rules of what audio is allowed in certain containers. It has nothing to do with the fact that the E-AC-3 came from an HD-DVD and it's a blu-ray player. And again, E-AC-3 is complementary to an AC-3 stream on a blu-ray. Standalone E-AC-3 isn't allowed.

[Guest]

OK, pal, you asked for it.

[ramicio]

Cool story.