Question - Rip PAL DVD and burn to NTSC DVD-R - HOW HARD??

[skunkwerx]

How easily can it be done?
Are there any guides out there for this specifically ?

Goal: I acquired a PAL DVD (I am in a NTSC region) I have a multiregion player, however I want to give it a shot and see if it can be done for sake of learning.

The disc is under 4.7gb. I want to rip the disc and burn it back with menus and content intact however in NTSC format. 1:1 copy but PAL>NTSC.

I am assuming it will require the re-encoding of VOBs to NTSC format... is this all?? Or am I waaaay off???

I am an novice DVD ripper HOWEVER I am not asking for someone to spoon feed me complete instructions. But if someone is willing to spoon feed... please go ahead. :o)

Just point me in a direction... like use the "xxxxx" guide and insert this step.

ie:
Use Smart ripper
Use "xxxxx" Set "xxxx"
Re-Encode with "xxxxxx"
Ifoedit....blah blah.
I'll spend the time fiddling.....

Just PLEASE point me in a general direction.

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

[Doom9]

well.. there's no guides and it's pretty complicated so I wouldn't waste my time on it.. you have the reencode the video and change the framerate, then apply pulldown to it, then decode the audio, change the pitch, reencode to AC3 and everything just mentioned goes for every video and audio stream on the disc, then you have to re-author..

[asifanwar]

I had the same problem - a couple of Region2 PAL discs. I got my new DVD-RW drive and thought to convert them over to NTSC DVD-Rs so I could sell my Raite multiregion DVD player.

I tried it many different ways with CCE and TMPGenc but kept getting weird jerky playback.

I finally manged to get AVIsynth to frameserve into CCE and created a script that takes the PAL stream, and converts it over to an acceptable NTSC stream which is smooth. I frameserved that into CCE and encoded it so it looked exactly the same as the original.

Then the audio. I decoded the AC3 (2 channel so easily went to a WAVE). Used CoolEdit to timestretch it out, and re-encoded it back to 2 channel AC3.

Put the whole thing together into SPruceUp having ripped the orignal menus and it looks GREAT!

Hope this helps a bit. Let me know if you need the nitty-gritty details (or my AVIsynth script)

AA

[sheddm]

Hi,
I posted a similar question in the nubie section, but it looks like you guys are tackling it here.
I have a bunch of PAL DVD's that I got while living in Europe, and would like to convert to NTSC DVD's so I can watch them. I would love to know the details if you've already written them down, and scripts would certainly save a lot of time. I'm like the firsty poster, novice DVD ripper, but not begging for spoon feeding (but if you have it, spoon away!).
You don't know how glad I am just to hear that it IS possible (if not a little work), since I hate to see 25 PAL DVD's go un-used.

Thanks for any follow up. I'm at sheddm@yahoo.com if you want to send any details or scripts.

M.

[asifanwar]

OK. Here is how I convert from PAL to NTSC. I am not claiming to be an expert, and freely admit that I gleaned this info from other sites.


=====VIDEO FIRST===========
1. rip the DVD using SmartRipper

2. use DVD2AVI with the video setting at NONE. No clipping or resizing either (we will use AVIsynth to change from PAL to NTSC resolutions)

3. Load AVIsynth. make sure the ReverseFields.vdf filter is in the same folder as the AVIsynth script below so it can find it

4. create my AVIsynth converting script based on the details below:

LoadPlugin("<pathname>\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("<pathname>\palsource.d2v")
ReSampleAudio(44100)
function ReverseFields(clip clip, int "ShiftDown")
{
LoadVirtualdubPlugin("ReverseFields.vdf", "_ReverseFields")
return clip._ReverseFields(default(ShiftDown,1))
}
ComplementParity
SeparateFields
Weave
ConvertToRGB32.ReverseFields
BicubicResize(720,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976)

5. save the AVIscript as something sensible (eg PAL2NTSC.avs)

6. drag and drop that into CinemaCraft Encoder 2.50 (HAS to be 2.5 not higher)

7. I then simply follow the excellent Robshot guide for 2-pass CCE encoding.
Please note that it takes notably longer than doing a native NTSC file cos it is doing all the voodoo to get it over to an NTSC compatible file

8. when CCE is finally done, use Pulldown.exe to 'fix' the file so it can be imported into the DVD authoring program
=====END OF VIDEO========

=======AUDIO NOW============
1. get the audio off DVD2AVI in the usual manner
2. convert the file into a WAVE (using SoftEncode, or SoundForge or WinAmp or any other method you like)
3. Open the WAVE file in CoolEdit2000. Remember the original film ran at 25fps and it will now run at 23.97 fps. SO you want the audio to be SLIGHTLY longer. You actually want the file to be 104.297% the length of the original. To do this, go to TRANSFORM....TIME/PITCH...STRETCH. Do a constant stretch, not gliding (stretch mode is TIME STRETCH, PRESERVE PITCH. Pitch & Time settings can be default; use high precision. In the ratio bit type in 95.90394. This will make the tempo slower JUST the right amount
4. once it is done, I would advise re-encoding it back to whatever it came as (AC3 or MPA or whatever, so you can save space and get the highest video bitrate (as per RobShots page)
=====END OF AUDIO===========

Now throw both the NEW NTSC compliant and the NEW longer AUDIO into SpruceUp (or whatever) and make your chapters based on the original. I use ChapterXtractor to get the original chapter points, but bear in mind that your video is now slightly longer so your points will progressively get further along. But you can get a fairly obvious idea of where the chapter is supposed to be by looking at the actual movie at that point or shortly thereafter (not usually more than about 90 seconds further along)

Note that I do NOT look at the length of the NEW NTSC video and use THAT to get my audio lengTH. Although this does seem to make sense, it never worked for me. Applying the SAME ratio ALWAYS works for me.

Hope this helps somebody out there.

[Falken]

Hi...

Can anybody tell me from where I can find the ReverseFields.vdf
as mentioned above....


Thanks

[asifanwar]

Hi,

Am I allowed to post this file as an attachment? I could change it to a JPG extension if needed. Just wanted to ask to make sure I dont break any rules. (the file is 40K)

If, not, then if the poster will leave his email address, I will email it to him.

Thanks

[Falken]

Salam Asif...

Thank you very much..

Please send me the file at this address...

f_a_l_k_e_n@hotmail.com

[Falken]

Hello...

Please post the file or send it to my above email...

I am waiting for your response...


Thanks...

[asifanwar]

I already did! I will do it again.

[Falken]

Hi...


Here is the ReverseFiled VirtualDub Plugins...

Thanks Asifanwar for giving it to me....

Regards

[utahman3431]

Can't you use IFOedit and just change the setting in the .ifo files to say ntsc rather than pal? I've done it a number of times, and it works every time!

[Ajax_Undone]

Can't you use IFOedit and just change the setting in the .ifo files to say ntsc rather than pal? I've done it a number of times, and it works every time!

Well the frame rate wouldnt change...

because the frame rate that is in the Mpeg2 file is still 30fps PAL rather then 29.976fps NTSC

[setarip_old]

@utahman3431

Hi!

What you've suggested is PART of a very simple conversion method that I've used successfully. Click on the following link, read the post and then click on the link in that post and read that entire thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=898860&postcount=13

[maksa]

Ladies and gents,
I had converted many PAL 2 NTSC DVDs. Basicaly I don't bother much with reversing fields and all that.

Use DGIndex to get m2v file. Than in AviSynth make simple resizing from 720x525 to 720x480.
I do not use AsumeFPS but rather ConvertFPS(29.97) - my authoring toll wouldn't take 23.976. If one use ConvertFPS, no stretching of the audio required. I process audio separately with BeSweet, just upconversion to 48000 AC3.
CCE should work fine with AviSynth script if you remove sound.

I did many progressive and interlaced material, didn't bother with deinterlacing, pulldown etc. Just process in AviSynth as is with very good results, no jerking or stutter...
Just make sure to recognize in DGIndex if material is PROG or INT and check in CCE appropriate field order and/or progressive tab.

People make complicted scripts that take forewer to encode and improvement is invisible to bare eye.

Just my 2c...

[Guest]

ChangeFPS() operates by duplicating frames, so if your material is interlaced, it will become a jerky mess. For interlaced material, you need to use this process (described in the Avisynth user manual):

AVISource("PAL_clip.avi") # Get clip
Bob(height=480) # Separate fields and interpolate them to full height.
BicubicResize(640,480) # Resize to NTSC square-pixel frame size.
ChangeFPS(60000, 1001) # Convert field rate to NTSC, by duplicating fields.
SeparateFields.SelectEvery(4,0,3) # Undo Bob, TFF. Use SelectEvery(4,1,2) for BFF.
Weave This process pulls down fields instead of pulling down frames, and it can be used on progressive video also. There will be much less judder in pans, etc.

Also, your use of DGIndex's progressive/interlaced encoding indication is not a proper, reliable way to determine whether the source material is interlaced. This has been discussed so many times that I'm not going to do it again here.

We're a high end forum. We care about getting as much quality as we can!

[maksa]

ChangeFPS will do bad with interlaced material, and it is hard to recognize int and prog, but in practice if we assume that whole movie is done one way even in VDUB if you move slider slowly could see if there are int fields (not 100%...).
ConvertFPS is better than change because it is trying to smooth things out even for interlaced material. I have tried both ways, separating fields, resizing, weaving and differences were minimal, at least for me.

Check this link:

http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/index.html

That is also guide for conversions "on the cheap side", which I am obviously using.

Otherwise, Neuron's script is right way to do it, just my machine is slow and I can not wait for 2 hour movie to go through 4 hour conversion.

[manono]

ConvertFPS is better than change because it is trying to smooth things out even for interlaced material
Nonsense. Using ConvertFPS on either interlaced or on progressive material is the worst possible thing you can do. It creates a blurry, blended mess. If converting interlaced material from PAL to NTSC, you use the script neuron2 outlined (although I prefer to use a better quality bob filter). If you're converting progressive material, you either resize it for NTSC and encode for 25fps, followed by applying DGPulldown for 25->29.97fps, or you slow the video (and the audio) to 23.976fps followed by a standard 23.976->29.97fps pulldown. That allows for more encoder efficiency, as you're encoding at 23.976fps or 25fps depending on the method used, rather than for a full 29.97fps. It also results in clean unblended frames and a much higher quality conversion. Nor should it take any longer to encode than the much inferior ConvertFPS method.

[maksa]

Neuron's script is right way to do it
U didn't understand.
What I am saying is that considering technical aspect one could try to do his/hers best, but as with many things, human eye is imperfect organ and visual experience is very individual.
Like buying pair of speakers or TV, people ask me what is the best brand. My answer is always: "Go there, listen(watch) many brands and buy one that pleases you the most, don't mind the price or brand." If you like HiFi, remember the story about tube amplifiers and vinyl records. They are clearly inferior by technical standards to new VMOS PA or CD, but people still prefer MCIntosh to Sony, although on Sony's output IC is impossible to measure distortion with conventional methods. Or CD, clearly no Gauss noise, dynamic range of 90 dB (vs 70 on vynil). Still afficionados bying old stuf, simply, their ears primed for that.
I had 28" CRT before and couldn't notice difference for any of the methods, but now with 42" HDTV plasma I DO AGREE with Neuron. And I might buy faster machine and re-convert all my PAL's again.

But stating that Nor should it take any longer to encode than the much inferior ConvertFPS method. is arbitrary, I could clearly see on CCE 1.6 V.S. 0.74 in the speed field (not to mention hours that I have waited).


Once, I said that for my taste, result from ConvertFPS are satisfactory, not right way!

[manono]

What part of....
Neuron's script is right way to do it
U didn't understand.
I question whether or not you know an interlaced source when you see one, since you said you rely on DGIndex to tell you. If you do rely on it and your source is a movie, then the chances are very good that you did it wrong, and it could have been done not only just as fast, but faster, by resizing and encoding for 25fps, without that ConvertFPS rubbish. There just isn't that much truly interlaced PAL material on DVD.

In addition, you seem to think there's something wrong with changing the framerate to 23.976 because your authoring app doesn't accept it. Of course it doesn't accept it. It's not DVD compliant since you didn't apply pulldown to have it output 29.97fps. And if you just leave it at 25fps (if progressive), followed by applying pulldown, no stretching of the audio is required, either.
People make complicted scripts that take forewer to encode and improvement is invisible to bare eye.
People make complicated scripts because they want the best possible results, and don't worry if it takes a little extra time. No one cares how you do it for yourself, but you shouldn't be promoting inferior methods at a site which cares about quality.

[Guest]

manono has got it right. You need the ChangeFPS() approach only when the source is interlaced. And it is true that DGIndex's progressive/interlaced indication does not tell you if the source is interlaced. It sounds paradoxical, I know, but it's well described in the DGIndex users manual.

[maksa]

2c are still 2 cents, at least here, and it means cheap, take it if you need it.

Mu discussion was on the understanding of the quality and that quality is very individual and can not be described with the ultimate technical specs. I clearly stated that I was satisfied with it, by the way, I do not watch action flicks, so pans and blurr are no issue to me, mostly static material.

On the technical side, 23.976 is DVD compliant as many (most) NTSC DVDs have it. 29.97 is actually very rare and resrved mostly for TV material transfered (interlaced, most likely). EncoreDVD does not accept 23.976 as it is made for home movies from DV source.

Now, we have 25 frames (lets say progressive). We want to change it to 23.976, not so bad... drop some or use AssumeFPS, do the pulldown, already solved. Interlaced, little more complicated, but quality stays the same.

2nd case, we want to go from 25 to 29.97 frames (still progressive). We need to invent missing frames (duplicate or blend). Simply changing frame rate will slow down the movie (barely noticable), but duplicating or blending will keep the length and add artifacts (extra frames), also barely noticable.

Key phrase here is "barely noticable", whole movie industry works on that phrase. Human eye can not distinguish (except in extreme cases - side vision, reduced light) anything faster than 16 fps.
So, 25, 23.976 or 29.97 are well above that and we have two choices, to slow down or speed up (depending on conversion) or to add artifacts. I never liked Charlie Chaplin movies going fast (sped up from 16 to 25) as they were not funny for that, but other things. And I made my choice to keep the length same and live with artifacts.
I hope that this forum is about quality but also about free opinion and one of the forum rules is that nobody states: This is best and this is not...or something like that.

"Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!"



We are all here to openly dicuss and share opinions, offer choice and various views.
When I did my first conversion, I have followed Neuron's and Manono's path, but experimented, tried other things to dicover what suits me fine... It is only fair to offer others same options, it doesn't cost much to experiment, only CPU time, but it pays a lot by learning "hands on" on different methods "pricey" and "cheap" and finding your own flavour.
I am sorry that I picked "The Wrong" one...:o

[manono]

Opinion is one thing, but when opinion flies in the face of facts it becomes just a bunch of useless words cluttering up a page.
On the technical side, 23.976 is DVD compliant...
No it's not.
29.97 is actually very rare and resrved mostly for TV material transfered (interlaced, most likely).
Not rare at all. In fact, every NTSC DVD ever made outputs interlaced 29.97fps (actually 59.94 fields per second). DVD is an interlaced medium.
EncoreDVD does not accept 23.976 as it is made for home movies from DV source.
Nice try but wrong again. It won't accept it because you didn't run the progressive 23.976fps encode through pulldown.
2nd case, we want to go from 25 to 29.97 frames (still progressive). We need to invent missing frames (duplicate or blend).
Neither ChangeFPS nor ConvertFPS is the way to go here. You do not have to add frames (blended or duped) and encode for 29.97fps. As I said before, encode for 25fps and apply pulldown afterwards. No blending. Smoother playback. Fewer frames being encoded and therefore better quality for the same filesize. Faster encoding than your ConvertFPS method. The video stays the same length so the original audio can be used.

I'll ignore those comments about human eye perception as they're not really relevant to the issue at hand. Neither the patch method or setarip_old's variation on it, nor anything involving duplicating or blending frames is the proper way to convert from PAL to NTSC, interlaced or progressive. You say that blending is good enough for you. Fine. Some of us prefer to do it right.

Please feel free to have the last word, as I'll retire from this thread.

[maksa]

In fact, every NTSC DVD ever made outputs interlaced 29.97fps (actually 59.94 fields per second). DVD is an interlaced medium.

Manono, DVD is digital medium, deals with MPEG files and only flag tells player if it is field or frame based. Output of the DVD only depends on the player and how it reads the info in the MPEG stream. Play any movie in Vdub player and check what is the frame rate, probably 23.967.

It won't accept it because you didn't run the progressive 23.976fps encode through pulldown.

What do U think pulldown does? Inserts fields to make up for missing ones. There is interesting read just on this site "Telecine Explained". Than U wouldn't try to explain DVD output, we all know it could be PAL or NTSC, or even SECAM (in France) interlaced or progressive, depending on the standalone and TV that you have.
Guess what, all PAL standalones could play NTSC Film 23.967 because speedup is only 4% and nobody notices. All cheap standalones could play anything, because they have encoders and video signal genarators for both systems. MPEG is not by itself PAL or NTSC. These two standards came from the early days of TV when coding color into a standard B&W TV signal was chosen to be different in North America and the Europe. There are few more standards (SECAM, PAL-M, SECAM-S etc.) that I won't bother explaining.
So PAL or NTSC output doesn't just mean frame rate, it means how the standalone generates output from pure digital format as MPEG. If U play DVD in your software player, it won't be PAL or NTSC, it will go directly to VGA card as digital stream and generate refresh rate of whatever U set (70, 80 or 60 Hz, - read, 35, 40 or 30 FPS).

For Ancore, please read its own manual, it clerly says that it doesn't accept 23.97 fps material. If I run pulldown, that is inserting frames (artifacts).
Any conversion deals with two options, adding frames or changing speed. Choice is ours.
ConvertFPS has two modes (zones) and it can blend frames or switch frames. Either choice has its pros and cons. It works best for frame based (progressive) material, but it can work for field based as well. Just to mention one fact, professional converting machines used by broadcast stations use type of blend, with motion compensation, but they used to work with analog signals digitalized (non MPEG)..:)

I'll ignore those comments about human eye perception as they're not really relevant to the issue at hand. Neither the patch method or setarip_old's variation on it, nor anything involving duplicating or blending frames is the proper way to convert from PAL to NTSC, interlaced or progressive. You say that blending is good enough for you. Fine. Some of us prefer to do it right.

This is basic misunderstanding of what is going on here! It is ALL about tricking eye into thinking that we have motion picture from the bunch of lines and pixels. In "your" method U are adding frames, U just don't know it...:p
And BOB filter does add artifact as it interpolates (read: invents) lines that are not there from two adjacent lines. So, this discussion is older than U and me, and any approach that makes U happy is good for me...
I will not retire from the thread as I see it as a means to exchange experience and knowledge to mutual advantage.
Regards...

P.S. Interesting read with comparisons: http://www.100fps.com/

[candela]

On a somewhat related matter, is it possible to create a 23.976fps dvd even if it isn't standards compliant. My tv does not support 30fps/60Hz but it can play 24fps (XviD avi, I guess the dvd player converts it into 25fps/50Hz) so I would like to try with a dvd without reencoding. I found the program on Doom9 that removes the pulldown flags from the elementary video stream but afterwards I can't remux it with muxman since it expects 30 fps.

[maksa]

[QUOTE][On a somewhat related matter, is it possible to create a 23.976fps dvd even if it isn't standards compliant./QUOTE]
DVD standard is 23.976 frames as all MPEG2 files are stored for only 24 frames (25 for pal) as this save memory (file size).
Flags in MPEG file determine what will be the actual output rate and what system would be outputed.
I guess U R in Europe and all PAL DVD stand alones can play NTSC that is 23.976 encoded and flagged. Neuron's DG pulldown will do that for U or U can use Sea_trip IfoEdit mode to change flags only if your DVD is flagged for 29.97 operation (check with IfoEdit).

[staul62]

Hi all, I'm a first time poster but a long time lurker and I want to thank everybody for the many tips, tricks and software gems I have gleaned over the years.

As a result of all my lurking, I finally seem to have come up with a method that does a PAL-NTSC conversion just the way I want it.

Essentially, all I have ever wanted is to take a PAL movie DVD, slow it down to correct speed and leave as much else as possible unchanged. I think the following does this but will happily accept people pointing out glaring errors in logic, method or basic understanding on my part!

- Decrypt movie to disc (save as one VOB to simplify later steps)
- Save chapter list from DVD or disk copy using IFOedit
- Demux VOB(s) into m2v and sound files
- Run DVDPatcher on m2v file. Change frame rate from 25 to 23.976, ensuring ALL other parameters match source values
- Run pulldown.exe on patched m2v file
- Resample AC3 audio file(s) from 25 fps to 23.976 fps using BeLight/aften.exe
- Decode, resample and re-encode DTS audio files using BeSweet and SurCode (not tried by me and not free)
- Mux output m2v and audio files using IFOedit
- Burn DVD files to image using Nero
- Mount image using DaemonTools
- Play!

I have tested this and it produces a movie of the predicted length with sound in sync. If I Don't run pulldown.exe, the VOB file will play OK but the IFO created by IFOEdit won't. If I run pulldown.exe, it's all fine. Note that I only plan to use a HTPC software player.

I have made no attempt to resize to NTSC frame size and I don't know if there are pixel aspect ratio considerations I am ignoring (through ignorance). The picture looks normal on the screen but appearances may deceive.

All comments welcome!

[setarip_old]

Hi!

If you live in Australia, why are you converting your files to NTSC format?

[blutach]

Especially since virtually every player here plays multi framerate happily.

And I'm really having trouble seeing what this thread has to do with Decrypting.

Regards

[staul62]

I'm converting purely because I hate the 4% speedup (and yes - I can tell). I'm not really converting anything other than the frame rate.

I've no idea what the thread is doing here but took it as I found it.

[k-c-ksum]

A while back i did Men in Tights PAL (progressive)to NTSC as it wasnt released State side, i used DVDdecrypter to demux the the video and audio.

i then re-encoded the video file (resized to 720x480) but left the frame rate at 25fps. then used the DGpulldown app to fudge the pullpulldown flags. This way the Audio can be muxed back in without any re-encoding.

I then used dvdlab to author the video and audio as a NTSC project. Worked perfectly.