24p in CCE-SP3

[neil wilkes]

Would I be right in thinking that to correctly encode 24p video in CCE-SP3 I need to select the right option on importing the source file?
IE, do "not" select "NTSC DVD-Video" but instead select one of the 2 pull options...but which one - Pulldown or Pulldown detection?

Thanks in advance.

[mp3dom]

The options during assets import are only presets. You can change it however you want via GUI.
BTW: Pulldown detection are for sources that are already at 29.97 fps (with parts of hard-pulldown) that you want to encode as 23.98+3:2 pulldown (meaning, physical encode of 24p and software pulldown via RFF flags or 29.98 when pulldown is not detected and 24p+3:2 soft-pulldown when detected)
Pulldown are for sources that are at 23.98p and you want to encode it for dvds (meaning that the encoder will apply soft 3:2 pulldown via RFF automatically)

[neil wilkes]

Interesting.
I have had terrible difficulty with CCE-SP3 and 24p encoding - as in it does not seem to work properly.
I simply could not get the best to work properly, although at the time I was using DVD-Lab Pro and not Scenarist.
I ended up using MainConcept's encoder to output the 24p and that worked, so it might have just been something in the CCE file header that DLP did not like.
I even sent the XML file to CCE support, and they could not see any issues or reasons for the problem (it looked like a seriously bad field order issue and played waaay too fast)

Now I know this is only a template, I will try again with Scenarist - just to see - as I really want to use 24p in a forthcoming project.

Many thanks for the help - it is greatly appreciated.

[mp3dom]

24p btw is not a supported framerate for dvd. You can have, at best, a 24p encoded file with soft 3:2 pulldown applied. This means optimal encode (the encoder works in progressive mode, on a lower framerate (24fps) so the bitrate is spent on less frames and this means higher quality) but the final framerate needs to be always 29.98fps.

[neil wilkes]

24p btw is not a supported framerate for dvd. You can have, at best, a 24p encoded file with soft 3:2 pulldown applied. This means optimal encode (the encoder works in progressive mode, on a lower framerate (24fps) so the bitrate is spent on less frames and this means higher quality) but the final framerate needs to be always 29.98fps.

This I understand.
But with the prevalence of not only updscaling players, but players like the Oppo BDP-83Se and BDP-95 supporting 24p playback on DVD's that have this encoding on them (and there are a fair number these days, for example the Stargate Atlantis NTSC editions are all 24p) and add to this the source files we are getting on the project in question are all 24p HD (23.976, but the player says 24p) it's easier to scale to 720x480 anamorphic than to change the frame rate as well, and the players that do not output the 24p source all pull anyway as long as the flags are set......why not!

I have no idea how this would work in a PAL player though, or even if it would work in a PAL environment - thoughts?

[kolak]

Interesting.
I have had terrible difficulty with CCE-SP3 and 24p encoding - as in it does not seem to work properly.
I simply could not get the best to work properly, although at the time I was using DVD-Lab Pro and not Scenarist.
I ended up using MainConcept's encoder to output the 24p and that worked, so it might have just been something in the CCE file header that DLP did not like.
I even sent the XML file to CCE support, and they could not see any issues or reasons for the problem (it looked like a seriously bad field order issue and played waaay too fast)

Now I know this is only a template, I will try again with Scenarist - just to see - as I really want to use 24p in a forthcoming project.

Many thanks for the help - it is greatly appreciated.

SP3 has no problems to encode from 23.976p. It's one of the only few encoders, which will do it properly. I've used it on 100s of titles already. If you had problems it will be down to DVDLAb- SP3 streams are strictly DVD compliant and work like a charm in Scenarist.

You can't use pure 24p as a source (you can if you know what you're doing)- it has to be 23.976p. 24p+pulldown=30fps which is not valid DVD fps. If you set in SP3 23.976p (for 24p source) it will do it properly-just remember to adjust audio duration.

Use proper preset- eg. GOP has to be <13 fps, not 15 or 18 as it can be for real NTSC. You can also set all parameters manually regardless of preset- READ manual! (even if it's not that great)

SP3 (also SP/SP2) have also the best inverse telecine ability- there is no other encoder, with such a good automatic cadence detection and such a rich possibility for manual check and correction of IVTC. All other encoders work fine if you have clear cadence- with sources with mixed cadence Cinemacraft encoders are unmatched. There is also very good epxlanation in SP manual, how to do it manually- also how to properly set chapter points, so they don't break applied 3:2 pulldown patern.

Who did you buy SP3 from- Ray? Contact him if you have problems- he should be first line support.
Are you based in London?- I can help if you need one.

DVDs with either 23.976p+pulldown or with 29.97 with IVTC (than added soft pulldown) are played at real 23.976p on most new players/TVs. This is the whole idea of it- to get original 23.976p footage on TVs, which supports it.

[neil wilkes]

Thanks, Kolak - this is all much appreciated.
I bought my SP3 from a company called ROMdata in the UK who are essentially resellers.
My usual first line of support is CinemaCraft via their email support, and the responses are slow. Often it takes 5 working days, and even then it's not always much help.
For example, I asked exactly the same question of them & did not get close to such a good reply as I just got from you.

I am indeed based in West London.

[kolak]

Thanks, Kolak - this is all much appreciated.
I bought my SP3 from a company called ROMdata in the UK who are essentially resellers.
My usual first line of support is CinemaCraft via their email support, and the responses are slow. Often it takes 5 working days, and even then it's not always much help.
For example, I asked exactly the same question of them & did not get close to such a good reply as I just got from you.

I am indeed based in West London.

I know ROMDATA- Steve quite well :)
I can provide training for Cinemcraft products.

[neil wilkes]

Steve's a good man. I bought both Scenarist & CCE-SP3 from him (at great prices too)

PM incoming....

[Lyris]

Would I be right in thinking that to correctly encode 24p video in CCE-SP3 I need to select the right option on importing the source file?
IE, do "not" select "NTSC DVD-Video" but instead select one of the 2 pull options...but which one - Pulldown or Pulldown detection?

Thanks in advance.

You've probably already solved this now, but if you have a 23.976fps file that you want to encode in the best possible way to NTSC DVD, bring it in to SP3 as a new item and use the "NTSC DVD film (pulldown)" template.

As other people have covered, the "Pulldown Detection" mode is an entirely different feature which analyses a 60i-centric input and converts it to 23.976fps for reasons of compression efficiency. Since your source is already 23.976fps (correct?) you don't need this.

And, you're right, modern DVD / BD players can output real 24p to the TV from DVDs produced in this way. Some of them simply ignore the repeat field flags at the MPEG decoding stage to produce 24p output (Panasonic), others decode at 60i and have a secondary chip try to detect the repeated frames (Oppo) with varying degrees of success, I might add.

As for your question, what happens in PAL countries - nothing. Playing an NTSC "24p" DVD in one of these players will output 24p to the display, just as it would in the US. Or, did you mean, what happens with PAL DVD? In which case, the answer is still nothing, since with PAL the frame rate is always 25.