UltraViolet: the next frontier?

[diogen]

Breaking out from the Cinavia discussion...
The best chance to implement an unbreakable DRM system is leaving the option open to update it daily.
And that means no hardware players or media. Hence - streaming with Win/OSX/Android/iOS/etc. software players.

And we are getting there...Indeed.
Big content hopes to get a lock (pun intended) on locking content from pirates...
http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/10/ultraviolet-digital-locker-opens-for-business-lets-you-buy-on/

Diogen.

[Chetwood]

And they will fail like all the times before.

[minaust]

Breaking out from the Cinavia discussion...
Big content hopes to get a lock (pun intended) on locking content from pirates...

Diogen.

You bet, but I don't think Ultra-Violet is the final answer. What big content is going for is the elimination of any and all physical content delivery. Sometimes I think the studios wish to return to the old days of "to see a movie, buy a ticket". They can't of course - the genie is out of the bottle. Now there are additional release venues and additional sources of revenue. Now those catalog titles can make money instead of collecting dust in the vault.

I remember all to well, way back when, a lawsuit filed by the MPAA, MCA/Universal, Disney, and whoever else that contained provisions to "ban the BetaMax" and included provisions to confiscate all "BetaMaxes" already sold. Personally, I think they were just aiming high - to get the suit negotiated down, to their true position, which I think was to cripple the format so badly as to kill it, much as the RIAA crippled the DAT recorder to death. One attempt was to have a tax imposed on the sales of blank video tapes, the proceeds of which would (theoretically anyway) go to the studios.

I think Big Content dreams about streaming all content, encrypted, all the time. From iPod to home theater, to actual brick & mortar theatres; stream it. No more portability. We'll see.

Minaust

[diogen]

I think Big Content dreams about streaming all content, encrypted, all the time.No doubts.
No more portability.I believe in the exact opposite.
As long as your player - BD, PC, PCH, TV itself, smartphone, tablet, etc. - is attached to the internet, it will play it.

And considering how ubiquitous the internet has become and the "cloud" is going to become,
I think they have a good chance to make this work...

Diogen.

[diogen]

I don't think much interest will be left in this service after people see the price
...$20 for HD quality movies, and $13 for SD versions.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/25/paramount-movies-lets-you-stream-ultraviolet-films-from-the-clou/

Henry.

[Ghitulescu]

And considering how ubiquitous the internet has become and the "cloud" is going to become,
I think they have a good chance to make this work...

The idea of cloud does not mean anything else than to give the key from your house to your neighbour and to ask him every time for a permission to enter in your house to use your own bed. And you pay him, of course, flat-rate or per use.

One uploads something he has to a storage beyond his control, hoping he'll get it back.

[CruNcher]

though this is bringing many research and companies that have formed over the past years together in 1 goal under 1 company (Rovi), but still stability is a issue and not even every of the Browser is ready for it yet in terms of stability (Chrome being the most suited for it) :)

Ultraviolet + Cinavia as part of the DIGITAL ENTERTAINMENT CONTENT ECOSYSTEM (DECE) aren't to underestimate because they create the lawful ground to "circumvent" (update) fair use as in the eyes of the industry they give you the copy and you don't need to make anyone anymore, as a side effect it creates a new buisness providing those copies and the infrastructure for it ;)

And now since more and more people realize Cinavia it needs to be fast established to prove stable in any fair use attack :)

That in the end the End consumer will pay for all it's costs of establishment you will see being justified with things like "If they wouldn't have stolen our content from us we wouldn't need it now we have no other chance, and those who have will pay back this way" That they hit everyone (legit costumer) is collateral damage ;)

[diogen]

From whatever I read, it doesn't look like a service to built a permanent library of films.
And even if it were, I can't imagine a sober soul shelling out $20 for a
HD movie with all the authorization/authentication crap in place...

But if they manage to do this for $2-$5, it might work.

Diogen.

[CruNcher]

Prices will obviously fall over time but yes sure the goal is a protected library of their content first round was initiating the business model and hardware grounds for it 2. was the infrastructure and we are in the test phase now :)

Though the biggest win and impact will be if it holds fair use attacks stand, because then their is a moral split braking it and everyone who does will be very clearly a bad boy no if and whens anymore and exactly that is the reason for it ;)

Read this carefully: "Physicall media copy option is not applicable when innitial purchase is an Ultraviolet-enabled Blu-Ray Disc or DVD"


though this is also setting standards on delivery methods so the most common denominator is used for Stream and Download delivery if your device for example supports High Profile efficiently you wont be able to watch (with this last bit of quality,on a HDMI output for example Bigger Screen then mobile) because Main Profile is more common (but those are technical stuff avg consumers will never see or know hopefully) so Media Converters in the long run will become useless finally, the whole all in one converter industry is more or less going to collapse ;)

[Dark Shikari]

The ability to update a system daily doesn't make DRM any harder to break at all. There are so many reasons that this approach is completely doomed from a copy-protection standpoint.

1. Breaking the DRM still means someone can immediately pirate every single thing they can stream -- and they won't know the DRM is broken until it's all on the Pirate Bay the next day. All this means is that the pirates won't publish their cracks, so the developers will have no idea how to "fix" their system, because they don't know where the hole is.

2. Making DRM is harder than breaking it, and the pirates have more resources, talent, and time than those developing the DRM.

3. Any system based on streaming from a server is subject to a man-in-the-middle attack. While hardware can be made extremely difficult to take apart and analyze (e.g. cable smartcards), software cannot. Even if "unbreakable DRM" was possible in the client, you could then proceed to simply make your own client (or modify theirs) which performed the same communication with the server, but saved the stream instead. This is impossible to prevent.

There's one chance for this system to defeat piracy though: make it cheap and convenient, and people won't want to go to the bother of torrenting.

[CruNcher]

Sure thing the "Scene" is going to brake Cinavia no doubt in that and sure thing we will still see copies floating around the industry tries more to polish their west saying: "See here we fully accept fair use also in this age but we want to set the marks for it here is what we offer, you won't need any additional software anymore (or braking anything) to consume we will provide ways for you to make it a nice Ecosystem with our content for you in every possible use case"

The major thing they hope for in it (device independence, fair use, fair prices over time if it gets accepted) and then in the end nobody can misuse fair use for copyright infringement anymore acceptance in the public over time is going to decrease for copyright infringement and increase for fair use compliant drm and everyone becomes happy *sniff* ;)

Though if you read further into it you are granted fair use rights (fair seeing license) for a digital copy only 1 year after that it becomes a Service and you need to pay for further interaction with it though its dependent on the Ultraviolet retailer also for which price.

So H.264 and Server costs are calculated per user for 1 year per copy based on the purchase price so you basically get a 1 year purchased system flatrate ;)

So you buy a Ultraviolet enabled Blu-Ray (20$) DVD (13$) and get granted @ least 1 year system usage (6 persons) of your fair use right (fair seeing license) so you have the right (fair seeing license) to watch your purchased content 1 year everywhere if you want to continue this right (fair seeing license) you have to repay a (unknown price) most probably subscription for another year (renewal of fair seeing license) or granted a per view license (Pay Per View content becomes VOD) ;)

It cant be any better Sony and the rest gets x times the money for Blu-Ray, H.264, Content, and additionally to give us the right (fair seeing license) to keep fair seeing it after 1 year on their Smartphone,TVs,PCs,Tablets :D

Ahh yeahh some propa ;)


Today’s consumer of audio and video media has, over many decades, grown used to a simple yet
effective method of acquiring content that ultimately results in the purchase of some form of physical
media such as CDs, DVDs and now Blu-ray Disks. Consumers have come to expect convenience and
flexibility with the CD and DVD purchase and usage experience. In particular, consumers can choose
among several retailers and make the decision on where to make their purchase based on price, choice,
convenience, affinity, and the like. Competition creates a robust ecosystem that is beneficial to the
consumer, retailer, distributor, rights holder, and device manufacturers. Furthermore consumers know
that content purchased at any retailer will play on any CD or DVD player. The consumer knows that the
content they purchased is theirs and they are free to take it with them and enjoy it wherever they like.
This is based on the trust consumers have placed in the DVD and CD brands, the underlying technologies
and the industry’s success at educating consumers that “it will just work”.

With the wide spread availability and penetration of high-speed broadband, and the movement towards
devices with direct IP connectivity, that physical media in general, and optical media specifically, may
soon be outdated. As we move from a world of DVDs and CDs to a world where content can be
purchased and enjoyed directly from the comfort of your living room or personal media player follows
that consumers will continue to expect the flexibility and convenience of the DVD experience as
described above. They will expect the usage model they have grown accustomed to in the physical world
will work for content they will purchase in the digital world.

The reality is that to date this has not been the case. Existing digital content solutions are closed
ecosystems, resulting in a market of numerous non-interoperable silos. Each silo has a different set of
usage rules enforced by a single Digital Rights Management (DRM) solution and each is linked to a single
retail portal selling a limited set of content. Content licensing in these silos is usually bound to a single or
very limited set of devices, as defined by the specific usage rules for each silo, limiting how and when
consumers can enjoy the content they have purchased. These “siloed” ecosystems are neither flexible
nor convenient and fall short when it comes to the expectations of consumers. Ultimately, this results in
a fragmented market that gives little incentive for consumers to shift to purchasing content online.
In one scenario consumers will simply fail to adopt online content acquisition in sufficient quantity to be
fiscally viable, and continue to purchase content on physical media. In the worst case, consumers may
use of illegal file sharing networks to gain access to the content they want on any or all devices they
own.

Apple has achieved a degree of success with its iPod + iTunes, but this has primarily been for music
not video. Aside from Apple, the increasing trend is to deliver music DRM-free in MP3 format. For music,
the unprotected MP3 format provides the flexibility and convenience associated with traditional CDs.
However, the music industry’s delay in defining a convenient legal electronic ecosystem has contributed
to widespread piracy and financial disaster for the industry. The task at hand is to define and implement
a convenient, flexible ecosystem for digital content, particularly high-value studio film content that
meets consumer expectations for convenience and choice, and presents a better experience than
today’s physical delivery systems or piracy.


Some stuff here is really contradicting the Ultraviolet Rights :P

At least we only get yet another (mov iso based) File Format ;)


This new Ecosystem must benefit all participants.
• The consumer - The Ecosystem must allow consumers to seamlessly experience any digital
content from any retailer across many devices.
• The retailer - The Ecosystem must not constrain the ability of retailers to compete in the market
place.
• The device manufacturer – The device manufacturer must be able to easily implement and
innovate on a range of competitive devices that can compete in the marketplace
• The content owner – The Ecosystem must ensure the security of the content owner’s
intellectual property.
It may seem like a daunting set of requirements, however, frameworks and technologies do exist today
that can be used to create an ecosystem that can address them. At a minimum, the solution must
address several important areas.
• There must exist a single well branded Ecosystem and associated usage model that is shared and
enforced across all Ecosystem participants.
• It must leverage a single universal media format, playable on a large class of devices.
• It must allow for the use of multiple Digital Rights Management (DRM) technologies that are
able to enforce the usage model. This will ensure that content can be rendered on a wide range
of systems and devices.
• Media formats and DRM systems should be generally invisible to the consumer: a consumer
should only be concerned with the title and the quality level (profile) of his purchase but should
be unaware of the technical details of media formats and protection systems.
• A record of consumer purchases is maintained in the cloud by the Ecosystem, easing consumer
management and availability.
• In order to ensure true interoperability, a single architectural framework must exist that will
enable consumers to easily purchase and access content they own from a diverse set of content
retailers on a wide-ranging set of devices, while still allowing competition and innovation in the
marketplace.

hehe i would be damned if not someone of DivX Certification crew wrote this ;)


PS: Lets wait for Ultraviolet amandment F1.3. "Expiring of the Blu-ray seeing license, and resubscription" ;)

[diogen]

The ability to update a system daily doesn't make DRM any harder to break at all.I think it does.
DRM, like any other *enterprise*, is about return on investment.
RIAA/MPAA were just trying to get away for cheap...:p

The times of brute force (e.g. deCSS) or classic key revokation (AACS) are over.
Look for example at jailbreaking the iPhone. It takes months to get there (v.5 of iOS)...

Certifying a Windows PC as a UltraViolet playback device is risky. Especially with delayed (nonstreaming) playback.
But I believe Netflix like service has the best chance to offer reasonable ROI.

I agree that the odds are not on the labels side.
But hiding the exploits will be hard. And if you can find the compromised *player* (like they did
with the Hollywood types that distribute award copies), there is a good chance the damage could be limited.

I think pricing will make or break it.
Although it is hard to simplify torrenting, but the legal aspect will never go away...

Diogen.

[Dark Shikari]

I think it does.
DRM, like any other *enterprise*, is about return on investment.
RIAA/MPAA were just trying to get away for cheap...:p

The times of brute force (e.g. deCSS) or classic key revokation (AACS) are over.
Look for example at jailbreaking the iPhone. It takes months to get there (v.5 of iOS)...That's because the hardware is locked down. An iPhone is not a software player.

[CruNcher]

Also about the Price this is a Ecosystem Ultraviolet is the first try it will be interesting how it can compete vs Apple and how long it will take to reach comparable price regions overall not enough competition is their on the Online Retailer side and even the Rights in Ultraviolet are still not 100% defined im confident that prices could reach a very acceptable level in the future as soon as this big test is over and more devices and software certified, though im still a little skeptical on the devices side and many interoperability questions also this whole specific device cloud binding and especially online privacy. This already hit me too Online Shop hacked my private data sold and spammed the first weeks via telephone and e-mails with my real name :P (though it seems spammers lost interest in me now ;) )

[Ghitulescu]

Ultraviolet + Cinavia as part of the DIGITAL ENTERTAINMENT CONTENT ECOSYSTEM (DECE) aren't to underestimate because they create the lawful ground to "circumvent" (update) fair use as in the eyes of the industry they give you the copy and you don't need to make anyone anymore, as a side effect it creates a new buisness providing those copies and the infrastructure for it ;)

Indeed.

[diogen]

An interesting article from a person that is no stranger to the audio/video encoding community...:)
http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/FutureHomeVideoDistribution.html

Not exactly an UltraViolet article but has a good - profit analysis based - explanation
why streaming services run by the studios solve many of their problems...

Diogen.

[CruNcher]

Ohh Amir is no more with the Media Division didn't knew though why the heck he left Microsoft doing system integrations for the high society now ?


Let’s hope the merits of download model are realized and we get to experience superlative video quality at home with all the conveniences of Internet distribution!

This is what Ultraviolet as first part of DECE also aims for the same that the Adult Industry (chaotically) already does for years it's not so new, so in those regards it was just a matter of time Hollywood would adapt (though in a more ordered way and lot of pre preparation on all grounds, seeing DivX ending up being one of those @ the front is also not that surprising).

[diogen]

He left shortly before HD DVD lost the battle with BD.
His boss R.Bach left few years later (http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/25/microsofts-robbie-bach-j-allard-leaving-as-part-of-broader-sha/).

But he's as active online as he ever was...:)
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?240-Scott-Borduin-and-Amir-Majidimehr-On-Software-and-Hardware

Diogen.

[setarip_old]

My interpretation of what I've read, here and elsewhere, is that the "Ultraviolet" concept converts "purchases" (with stronger individuals' rights) to apparently higher-priced long term rentals (with no individuals' rights). As such, I'd suggest that a major portion of present day "purchasers" would very likely turn to lower-priced short term rentals - and many of those short term rentals may very well be on disc. I base this on my belief that a demographic analysis would show that most present day "purchasers" of disc based products are of an age group comprised of OTHER THAN technological enthusiasts interested in overcoming protection schemes - rather, they'd like to believe that they can make a ONE TIME purchase of a tangible product (a disc) and do with it as they please.

If an unstated part of the "Ultraviolet" game plan is to also eliminate traditional rental via brick and mortar and/or central warehouse distribution of disc-based products, the studios may find that they've made a major error about their ability to gain and RETAIN absolute control over the products they distribute (I've intentionally avoided the word "sell") and instead, may alienate yet another portion of their customer base.

I find it remarkable that such tumult can exist and continue to propagate reagrding something that is merely "entertainment". But then again, when I was a kid, $50,000 a year was a huge salary for superstar athletes in their entertainment venue...

[Ghitulescu]

My interpretation of what I've read, here and elsewhere, is that the "Ultraviolet" concept converts "purchases" (with stronger individuals' rights) to apparently higher-priced long term rentals (with no individuals' rights). As such, I'd suggest that a major portion of present day "purchasers" would very likely turn to lower-priced short term rentals - and many of those short term rentals may very well be on disc. I base this on my belief that a demographic analysis would show that most present day "purchasers" of disc based products are of an age group comprised of OTHER THAN technological enthusiasts interested in overcoming protection schemes - rather, they'd like to believe that they can make a ONE TIME purchase of a tangible product (a disc) and do with it as they please.

If an unstated part of the "Ultraviolet" game plan is to also eliminate traditional rental via brick and mortar and/or central warehouse distribution of disc-based products, the studios may find that they've made a major error about their ability to gain and RETAIN absolute control over the products they distribute (I've intentionally avoided the word "sell") and instead, may alienate yet another portion of their customer base.

I find it remarkable that such tumult can exist and continue to propagate reagrding something that is merely "entertainment". But then again, when I was a kid, $50,000 a year was a huge salary for superstar athletes in their entertainment venue...

I agree on all counts.
They try to revert the situation back to the origins, when someone willing to see twice a movie had to go twice in a theatre. Just like then, the availability of a certain movie was not granted.

On the other hand, very few of the movies produced today may enjoy the "cult" status. They are generally distributed as "watch-once-and-forget", lots of 3D effects to compensate for the lack of a script. So renting such a blockbuster at a fee just smaller than the price for a DVD/BD might appeal a customer that doesn't want to pay a premium price to see that movie just once. Not to mention, that once the rental houses will go broke, they have the full control over the material they distribute - we experience for more than one year here in Germany the HD+ system that doesn't allow the customer to FWD the commercial breaks (actually everything since the system cannot distinguish the ads from the movie). How many actually kept those stupid horror movies of the 80ies (drive-in movies)? How many actually saw them (from those that paid the ticket) ;) :)?

[diogen]

If an unstated part of the "Ultraviolet" game plan is to also eliminate traditional rental via brick and mortar and/or central warehouse distribution of disc-based products...I think they want more than that.
If Amir's interpretation of the dynamic is correct, the final goal is to eliminate "hard" storage altogether.
If there are no discs, there is no first sale doctrine, hence - no RedBox.
Also, Netflix will be having a tougher time to negotiate streaming licenses.
This might be the reason both Netflix (http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/04/netflix-queues-s1-of-its-original-production-lilyhammer-for-st/) and Amazon (http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/10/2790770/amazon-creative-executives-original-series-programming) are investing in original programming...
...the studios may find that they've made a major error about their ability to gain and RETAIN absolute control over the products they distribute (I've intentionally avoided the word "sell") and instead, may alienate yet another portion of their customer base.Alienating their customers isn't something new for the RIAA/MPAA gang...:)

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

If Amir's interpretation of the dynamic is correct, the final goal is to eliminate "hard" storage altogether.

Does the notion of CLOUD say something to you? :)

[CruNcher]

yep unavoidable though we are pretty good @ adapting to changes i guess we gonna survive that change too and i wouldn't see it that black as their still will be a lot of rivalsand competition that want to differentiate from each other so , its still a big test phase how people gonna accept it and further market research will decide further reactions from the studios.
Also getting rid of all these old structures has many benefits for the environment if we can save to create reproduction facilities (energy consumption,waste,toxic materials) why shouldn't we do it we just have to care about Power Consumption and replacing Memory or Hard Drives recycling ect :)
And the studios themselves agreed creating a market around it so the chain of distributors and rentals will still be keeped (and they decide the prices) no direct manufacture customer chain so still real competition based (only difference everything is centralized on the studios network), so just lets wait how the prices develop what special offers gonna be created around it and so on it's still to early to judge it absolute bad except the fact that you giving up your material fair use right :)

[diogen]

I believe any dramatic changes in ways customers "consume" movies will take at least a decade to play out.
Apple can make their flock go by with a one-button mouse, no cursor keyboards, without a floppy
and soon without an optical drive. The remaining 90%+ (for better or worse) stick to more
traditional ways of doing things. I don't see MPAA being the next Apple.

And it isn't only that cartel or monopolistic behavior legislation can be tried against them.
The variety of ways video is consumed today will inevitably lead MPAA to find friends in the streaming business.

Also, in 10 years Hollywood's lock on the entertainment industry can be weakened to the point that they will lose their ability to call the shots.

In other words, look what happened to Microsoft since the turn of the century.
I think the same can happen to the MPAA...

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

Apple can make their flock go by with a one-button mouse, no cursor keyboards, without a floppy
and soon without an optical drive.

And never got over 9-10%. The problem is that sometimes, as my colleagues told me, even the most hardened "appleists" have to change sides for being annoyed by some "inventions" of Apple. Not because they liked MS more, but because they started slowly to hate Apple.

I would expect at least 33% success rate for a successful concept. Like iPhone.

[diogen]

Walmart is getting into the UltraViolet game
http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/02/28/customers.will.be.able.to.access.digital.content/

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,2112746,00.html
;)

[diogen]

Walmart is getting into the UltraViolet gameWalmart must have been paid handsomely to support this stillborn dud...:)

Here is an interesting interview that sheds some light on the UV DRM.
http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/29/neustar-ultraviolet/

It is nothing new! Old DRM in new packaging!!
Ultraviolet's not really a new DRM, it's a new way of hadling existing DRMs so they actually talk together...
Considering every relevant DVD/BD DRM system is broken, what does this say about UltraViolet?

Well, you can't actually expect DRM breakthroughs from companies like Neustar (http://www.neustar.biz/) who's services
cover everything from domain registration, to marketing to mobile intelligence.

But after Amazon joined (http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/10/2697997/amazon-ultraviolet-retail-partner-samsung-disc-to-digital) the UV gang and now Walmart offered its stores to push the new format,
there is hardly any doubt that studious still hope to make this work...

Diogen.

[Bloax]

Gonna be fun to watch their profits once it's out. :)

[CruNcher]

For me it sounds more like Neustar being the PR company for UV ;)

[Ghitulescu]

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,2112746,00.html

Walmart must have been paid handsomely to support this stillborn dud...:)

The reason I posted this link was somewhere in the middle of the article - Walmart did not understand what the customers wanted - which is typical for a company that is used to "teach the customers" what they (the customers) want .... :) I still do not expect today Walmart to understand the US customers more than it did in the past :) ...

PS: UV is maybe stillborn (ahead of its time) but the next generations will be more or less like UV (in the sense that is the BD today in comparison to the DVD).

[diogen]

For me it sounds more like Neustar being the PR company for UV ;)It most likely is.
And as long as they still offer "hard" copies, it would be interesting to hear an expert opinion of what that "packaging" is really all about...

There is one issue I don't quite understand: around the time the first hidef movie on optical disc - Terminator 2 in
WMV-HD - the DRM experts claimed that disc-DRM and streaming-DRM are completely different unrelated animals.

If true, how can UltraViolet cover both bases without adding anything new?

Diogen.

[diogen]

Another DRM/UV development
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/fox-and-warner-bros-form-new-high-def-drm-content-group/
Project Phenix aims to provide easy-to-manage high-quality versions of digital content stored on users local devices—viewable without an Internet connection—with cloud-based services like UltraViolet backing it up for mobile devices and other uses.

It seems to slowly becoming a habit for studious - dropping a vowel to convert a generic word into trademark-able:
Blue becomes Blu(-ray), Phoenix transforms into Phenix.

Or is it simply high-school curriculum deficiencies...:p

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

Another DRM/UV development
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/fox-and-warner-bros-form-new-high-def-drm-content-group/


It seems to slowly becoming a habit for studious - dropping a vowel to convert a generic word into trademark-able:
Blue becomes Blu(-ray), Phoenix transforms into Phenix.

Or is it simply high-school curriculum deficiencies...:p
One cannot use a common name as a trademark, the same is for numbers (which BTW forced Intel to rename its 586 to Pentium :)).
PS: UV is maybe stillborn (ahead of its time) but the next generations will be more or less like UV (in the sense that is the BD today in comparison to the DVD).
I mentioned one year ago another stillborn technique - CopyCode from CBS. Yet the exact technique, now in a better formula, began be used largely in BD-movies, and soon in anything else (internet, computers, SAT-receivers etc.). Cinavia.

Ultraviolet is another testing thing. It will fail (or not), another one will replace it, more perverse, more difficult to remove. Since the copyright lasts longer than the customers' life, they have the time, the customers don't (they cannot wait for a work to become PD).

Because the studios are not different from any other industry - all of them use now the "dog flea" strategy - namely, parasite the customer (sell eg a printer for 20€, charge however 40€ for cartridges, which of course cannot be obtained from after-market sources; sell a car but prevent independent workshops repair it or after-market parts etc etc etc). And like a dog, if the fleas are too "thirsty" the dog will die and those fleas will die too unless they'll find another host. This happened to SACD, MD and to a lesser extent to DVD-A. And that's why they have the 10% "copy" acceptance.

[diogen]

The Walmart & UV topic made it to Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203833004577249652072048154-lMyQjAxMTAyMDIwNzEyNDcyWj.html
[UV] was announced in January 2011, but so far has only about one million users in the country.
...
The Wal-Mart service is expected to include several thousand movies, drawn from every major studio except Walt Disney Co., which isn't a member of the coalition behind UltraViolet.
...
The consortium also is talking with Best Buy Co., a member of the UltraViolet group, about introducing a similar service at the electronics retailer's stores.
...
One of UltraViolet's initial stumbling blocks was a limited selection of titles. Just two movies, "Horrible Bosses" and "Green Lantern," were available the first week of release. Since then, fewer than 100 new titles have been made available.
...
The UltraViolet consortium has previously said it is working with Samsung Electronics and other hardware makers to develop Blu-ray players that prompt consumer to create UltraViolet accounts when registered titles are played.


Nothing really new, studious still hoping to make this work...

Diogen.

[diogen]

Nothing directly to do with UltraViolet, but a clear sign of things to come, I believe: next generation game consoles will be disc-less (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/rumor-microsoft-to-eliminate-disc-drives-for-xbox-720-slated-for-2013-launch/) (most likely)
If these rumors hold true, coupled with a purported disc-less PS4, the novelty of owning cases and its manuals will be a fading reality. On the other hand, with the onset of this trend, the third-party gaming retail shops, particularly Gamestop and UK’s GAME, will be forced to pivot their strategy or face an alarming wake-up call due to rapidly declining sales.
And unless this has some severe "side effects", it will be implemented in the movie distribution business as well. And RedBox and other rental/resale outlets will suffer the same consequences...

Diogen.

[diogen]

Here is how Warner is planning to play the UV game
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/10/2859139/warner-bros-ultraviolet-dvd-disc-to-digital-rip
...take a stack of DVDs to an undisclosed location, pay someone an undisclosed amount of money, wait an undisclosed amount of time, and like magic, you've got DRM-laced digital copies of your movies ready for streaming.
....
The company plans to eventually allow users to upload their own digital copies from home, as well as automatically add a UV copy to a digital locker as soon as physical media is purchased.The DVD market is the primary target for UV-ing.

And squeezing out the middleman (rental/resale outlets) seems to be the primary reason studios are doing this.
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/digital-copy/kevin-tsujihara-discs-key-driving-ultraviolet-adoption-26560

Bottom line:
The UV idea in Warner interpretation isn't a pure streaming service like Netflix (but owned by studios).
It is a "movie ownership" service where the discs are replaced by the digital copies.
In other words, what doom9 readers do for at least 10 years (but replacing local storage with the cloud)...:)

Diogen.

[diogen]

Most likely an orchestrated leak to see the reaction
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/12/2865786/walmart-disc-to-digital-ultraviolet-pricing-rumor
Walmart will charge two to four dollars to take your old DVD and add a digital copy to your own personal UltraViolet collection; the pricing will vary depending on whether or not consumers want to upgrade their movies to high-definition or not.
....
DVDs will be stamped at the store so they can't be redeemed more than once.

Diogen.

[CruNcher]

So to speak by purchasing the DVD you got a SD license to upgrade to a HD license you pay +4$ im not sure if most stuff is worth it to be watched in HD againif you allready watched it 10000 times in SD it wont change the Film then i would rather prefer a HD 3D license upgrade ;)

[diogen]

I think paying $4 to upgrade your (favorite) movie from SD to HD is tempting.
But playing the result only over the internet (streaming), on limited devices DRM-ed to the hilt - is not...

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

I've seen BD discs at 5€ apiece - most not-that-new movies on blu-rays seems to float around 10€. A reasonable price, given the fact that you can watch them several times (if it's worth to be seen so many times ;) ), whenever you like, without avoiding network "rush hours" (when everyone streams HD content - it's hardly the situation today, but it may be in the future if UV catches), and on relatively free devices.

[diogen]

But if they manage to do this for $2-$5, it might work.And that's exactly what they are going to charge...:)
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/13/2867843/walmart-ultraviolet-disc-to-digital-official

Details are still sketchy what you actually get for that...

Diogen.

[xenex]

I have read a bit about this lately and frankly, it sounds ridiculous. So, people will physically bring in their DVDs to the WalMart photo center, have them "scanned" -- whatever that means -- and then have them added to the UltraViolet "cloud" for later digital download or streaming in what is assumed to be some DRM format. And then they "stamp" the disc so it can't be lent to others and brought in again?? LOL.

What about the loss prevention people? Folks bringing in DVDs into WalMart and taking them back out? How will that work? Bring in disc(s), have them stickered by the WalMart "greeter," take them back to the UltraViolet kiosk to have them "scanned and stamped" and then take them back out with you whilst proving you didn't just steal them? How will this ever work?

[diogen]

How will this ever work?For example, make the UV booth entry before you meet the "greeter"...Those are technicalities.

I think the very idea of UV speaks volumes about the studios smartening up. Or finally listening to smart people.
The optical disc business is going down. Not fast enough to be just killed, but more than enough to start thinking what's next.

And that next step is streaming. Or at least this is their conclusion.
Netflix has done a decent job in making streaming an option not just for geeks. But not for Main Street.

Teaming up with Walmart - the de-facto Main Street shopping place and seller of about 40% of all DVDs sold - is a rational next step.

Ideally, the process should look similar to the iTunes Cloud service.
All the movies (start with BDs, then move to DVDs) are in the cloud. You specify what movie you have (or are buying) and you get access to the digital copy.
For a fee you can upgrade from SD to HD. Or Theatrical to Director's Cut.

There are quite a few problems:
Bandwidth. You can't stream BD bitrates in more than 0.1% of the world.
Pre-download. Would probably solve the bandwidth issue but won't be implemented until studios are happy with the DRM (never?)
Compression. Even DVDs bitrates are too high for most. How to compress without quality loss. Maybe compress BD sources into DVD specs...

But if the next installment of Bond would be offered in HD for streaming into my home theatre on the day of release, I'd consider paying something like $50 for a service like this...:)

Diogen.

[xenex]

Here is a nice happy shiny promotional video for the WalMart service:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3cnbGeskq7U

I personally remain skeptical. I still think it sounds ridiculous. But according to what I've read, it will be introduced into all WalMart stores with Photo-Centers (about 3500 of them) starting April 16. So I guess we will see.

[Mug Funky]

one thing that mildly amuses me about the DRM fiasco is that in order for "big content" (i kneejerk at "big anything" because of the current libertarian trends in the USA... it's become a tea-partier catchphrase slap "big" in front of nouns) to stay ahead, it needs to basically employ people from this board and places like it.

they'd better keep us happy :) the kind of access to content that you get in the broadcast industry comes with lots of responsibility, but there's plenty of cases where somebody has just leaked a not-yet-released feature onto torrentland because they could.

of course, i'm not saying i'd do anything like that - i value my job and have a family to feed. but it only takes one.

[diogen]

...but there's plenty of cases where somebody has just leaked a not-yet-released feature onto torrentland because they could.Been there, done that.
It's going down, fast.
http://waxy.org/2012/01/

And while cam rips appear in torrentland the day a movie debuts, Blu-ray leaks are very rare by now (not counting a UK BD rip while no release in North America).
And I don't expect this trend to reverse. More care is taken to prevent it and it is getting easier to trace the leak source.

The success of iTunes (even DRM-ed at the beginning) showed that there is more than just price to make a product appealing and sell well. Same will (eventually) happen with movies. It's just that the unit price (movie vs. song) is orders of magnitude more expensive and therefore justifies (at least in the studious' view) more care to protect: Cinavia, UltraViolet, etc.

But the idea is and will stay appealing enough to never die.
Hollywood makes about 600 movies a year. Let's say 1000 movies a year get released on Blu-ray worldwide. With 50GB/movie it's 50TB total. Let's be generous and claim catalog releases double this number: 100TB.
In other words, to store all movies released in a year in a nice storage array will cost less than half of a cheap car.

I believe streaming is here for good.
Just to overcome the growing pains of satisfying all the players...

Diogen.

[CruNcher]

Here is a nice happy shiny promotional video for the WalMart service:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3cnbGeskq7U

I personally remain skeptical. I still think it sounds ridiculous. But according to what I've read, it will be introduced into all WalMart stores with Photo-Centers (about 3500 of them) starting April 16. So I guess we will see.

So VUDU acts as UV (the backbone where VUDU gets the content from) reseller to Walmart and 5$ upgrade for the HD Streaming version so :)
I wonder how these 5$ per conversion now split between all 3 parties and if VUDU is still themselves transcoding the content or just put it through their system now directly to the end user (connection between the UV backbone and vudu) ;)
And if VUDU customers that did the conversion get also automatically a UV account ?

For me this service doesn't look like the clasical UV sheeme as UV mandatories UV Discs and Walmart seems to allow any DVD even those not bought @ Walmart to be converted ? , also there is no information about usage rights and how long the license last nothing in any form in that commercial about these very strange.

[diogen]

For me this service doesn't look like the clasical UV sheeme as UV mandatories UV Discs and Walmart seems to allow any DVD even those not bought @ Walmart to be converted ?Call it "transition period"...
They have to build up a critical mass of users to start phasing out discs.
And that proves to be not so easy. So they hire Walmart to kick-start the conversion.
Since that's the place where most DVDs are sold...

When (if?) this "transition" is over, studious will return to "maximazing shareholder value", i.e. raising prices.
It will be easier since the competition will be mostly dead...

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

Call it "transition period"...
They have to build up a critical mass of users to start phasing out discs.
And that proves to be not so easy. So they hire Walmart to kick-start the conversion.
Since that's the place where most DVDs are sold...

When (if?) this "transition" is over, studious will return to "maximazing shareholder value", i.e. raising prices.
It will be easier since the competition will be mostly dead...

Diogen.

:goodpost:

"We love the competition"