Basic DV advice needed

[mike_2008]

I am new to video editing and am trying to learn some best practices before I embark on transferring 30 mini dv tapes (home movies) to my computer. I figure doing some initial research might save me pain before I go down the wrong path. Below is what I think I learned and was hoping to get some feedback.

Step 1- "Transfer the Video from the digital camera"- I do have a fire wire connection and was able to transfer the video from the camera into Movie Maker. I believe it was a type 1 AVI file which I believe should transfer the video exactly as recorded without any loss in quality.

Questions
Is there any benefit to a type 2 AVI file which I believe separates the audio and video into two separate streams?
Are all AVI files created equally or is there a particular benefit to using specific software?

Step 2- "Editing the DV"- I do not see myself doing a lot of initial editing at this point, but would like to cut out some of obvious junk on the imported files and create scenes so that clips can be easily located. I believe I could do the basic editing in Movie Maker and export the modified video to a AVI file. I know that AVI files are large, but I want to keep the source in AVI just in case I wanted to edit the video further in the future.

Questions
- Would exporting the edited video to avi format in Movie Maker preserve the original quality of the dv file?
- Could I benefit from using Avisynth to clean up the video? If so, what are the typical things I could do to improve the video quality?
- I assume since the source is 4:3 aspect at 480x720 resolution that I should not try to change to 16:9 format. Is this correct?
- Could I benefit from using VirtualMod to edit the video? What are the typical benefits?

Step 3- "Delete original imported AVI and backup newly created AVI files in step 2"- I would probably just backup the newly created files to DVD-R. I would also keep the original dv tapes.
Questions
- Any reason to keep the original imported AVI file?
- Any tips on backing up AVI files to DVD-R?
- How long do the DV mini tapes last?


Step 4- "Being able to play the AVI file on a TV"- I am thinking of using PS3 as a media extender to play the AVI files directly.
Questions
- Can this be done?
- Since disk space is cheap, I do not see any real benefit to compressing the video at this point. Do you agree?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[MrVideo]

I'll try and add 2 cents to some questions. I do not know the answers to others.

Step 1- "Transfer the Video from the digital camera"- I do have a fire wire connection and was able to transfer the video from the camera into Movie Maker. I believe it was a type 1 AVI file which I believe should transfer the video exactly as recorded without any loss in quality.

As long as a DV codec was used and not allowed to convert to another format. That said, the AVI file should have DV content as there is no way to convert on the fly :D So yes, what was on tape is now in the AVI file. FYI, DV uses intraframe compression at about 7:1.

Step 2- "Editing the DV"- I do not see myself doing a lot of initial editing at this point, but would like to cut out some of obvious junk on the imported files and create scenes so that clips can be easily located. I believe I could do the basic editing in Movie Maker and export the modified video to a AVI file. I know that AVI files are large, but I want to keep the source in AVI just in case I wanted to edit the video further in the future.

AVI is a wrapper, it has nothing to do with the video content's codec. The size of the file is because of the video codec.

I do not know Movie Maker. But any editor worth its weight, like Premiere, will copy the video from the source to the edited output. If you only do cuts, you'll be fine. But, if you do any fades, wipes, text overlays, anything other than a straight copy of the video, recoding has to take place during the period where the effect is applied. DV holds up extremely well if doing an effect on top of video that was previously recoded due to an effect. If you plan on doing any effects, plan them out so that everything can be done in a single pass.

- Would exporting the edited video to avi format in Movie Maker preserve the original quality of the dv file?

See above.

- Could I benefit from using Avisynth to clean up the video? If so, what are the typical things I could do to improve the video quality?

Not necessarily. At most you'll end up causing other issues because you are recoding all of the video. You'll have wasted a generation for nothing.

- I assume since the source is 4:3 aspect at 480x720 resolution that I should not try to change to 16:9 format. Is this correct?

720x480 (width x height). What is there to change. The source is 4:3. There is no 16:9 content.

Step 3- "Delete original imported AVI and backup newly created AVI files in step 2"- I would probably just backup the newly created files to DVD-R. I would also keep the original dv tapes.

Due to the size of DV, you'll only get about 18 minutes onto a DVD-ROM. Burning to BD-ROM would get you more time. And yes, do not get rid of your source tapes.

- Any reason to keep the original imported AVI file?

Yes and no. Depends on if you plan on revisiting the material to revise the work. As long as you have the source tapes and the means to play them, then not really.

- Any tips on backing up AVI files to DVD-R?

Like I said, BD-ROM probably better. No, they are just data files. Burn as data files.

- How long do the DV mini tapes last?

Good question. I have hundreds of DVCAM tapes (pro version of consumer DV). I'm more worried about the decks failing.

Step 4- "Being able to play the AVI file on a TV"- I am thinking of using PS3 as a media extender to play the AVI files directly.
Questions
- Can this be done?
- Since disk space is cheap, I do not see any real benefit to compressing the video at this point. Do you agree?

While you'll find lots of devices that will play AVI files, the problem is that I don't think you'll find any device that will handle the DV codec. MPEG-2 and H.264, but not DV.

That means you'll have to take your edited files and recode to H.264 480i29.97 and put them into a MKV wrapper. (I prefer MKV wrapped files over AVI wrapped files).

BTW, your videos are already compressed. :D Recompressing your DV edited files into H.264, at a decent bitrate, will yield results such that you'll have a hard time telling the difference between the source and the recode.

[johnmeyer]

Questions
- Would exporting the edited video to avi format in Movie Maker preserve the original quality of the dv file?
- Could I benefit from using Avisynth to clean up the video? If so, what are the typical things I could do to improve the video quality?
- I assume since the source is 4:3 aspect at 480x720 resolution that I should not try to change to 16:9 format. Is this correct?
- Could I benefit from using VirtualMod to edit the video? What are the typical benefits?You can easily use VirtualDub to cut "head/tail" junk, and also do basic cuts in the middle of each clip. Make sure to select "Direct Stream Copy" in VirtualDub. If you do, the resulting cut video will be bit-for-bit identical to each frame of the original, with no loss (i.e., no re-encoding).

Do not make any changes to your source footage (i.e., do NOT use any codec to re-encode to make it smaller, and do not try to improve it in any way).

Do not change it to 16:9.

Then, buy a nice big hard drive (unfortunately, because of the floods in Thailand, hard drives have gotten a lot more expensive) and copy all the files to this drive. I don't know how long hard drives last, but I have a 1987 laptop that runs 24/7 logging phone calls and the hard drive on that is still working. You can also back up on Blu-Ray discs, using them not as a Blu-Ray video storage medium, but simply as a data medium. You can copy several hours of DV AVI to one disc. You can also use DVD discs, but you'll have to cut the AVI files into 4.7 GB chuncks (approximately) in order to fit them on the discs, and it will take three discs for every hour of DV. You can use VirtualDub in the Direct Stream mode to accomplish these cuts (and merges, if necessary).

[Ghitulescu]

There are several issues with DV movies: DAR/PAR (active line), colour subsampling, TFF/BFF, and Type 1/2.
Windows Movie Maker is more like a toy (in XP what I use), it doesn't preserve the main feature of DV: editability, it converts/reencodes it into something different (WMV IIRC).
Try to find an editor that takes into account the BFF aspect (thus you won't have any issues with the transitions, if you plan to use them) and still outputs DV AVI (smart rendering, ie it reencodes only the affected parts - maximum of quality). Such an editor is Adobe Premiere. Once you have the edited DV AVI, you can use whatever encoder you want in the format you like. I use (still) MPEG-2 as it is compatible with DVD and with BD (but probably not with the next generation). You can use the H.264/AC3/MKV solution, too - but this will require to save it somewhere as a data format (HDD, DVD, BD, USB-stick, SDHC-card etc).

[2Bdecided]

create scenes so that clips can be easily locatedIf you capture using WinDV, you can have each scene saved to a separate file completely automatically. No point doing it yourself manually. You can still cut out any junk from these files easily and losslessly using VirtualDub, selecting Direct Stream Copy to avoid re-encoding.

As MrVideo said, no media streamer, TV, gamebox etc plays DV-AVI files. You'll need to convert them to watch them on such devices. That's a whole other thread (and there are some - there's a DV forum you know?). Keep the originals though - for easy editing, and access to the best quality source you have if you want to re-encode for something else.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

Windows Movie Maker is more like a toy (in XP what I use), it doesn't preserve the main feature of DV: editability, it converts/reencodes it into something different (WMV IIRC).There's a drop down box to select the codec. One codec is DV (i.e. lossless).

Try to find an editor that takes into account the BFF aspect (thus you won't have any issues with the transitions, if you plan to use them) and still outputs DV AVI (smart rendering, ie it reencodes only the affected parts - maximum of quality). Such an editor is Adobe Premiere.All the half-decent NLEs know the field order of DV, and allow smart rendering. This has existed for over a decade, originally to save speed as well as quality.

Cheers,
David.

[smok3]

You can take traditional tape-workflow approach, where you would basically store the logs (the EDL) and final (edited) file on disk (just mark your tapes with some unique numbers, like 00001,00002, or tape01, tape02),

Then just do the needed encodes from that final file. Captured files can than be deleted, but you can always recapture using your edl.

What you need is a real nle (premiere was known to behave well with DV stuff, has a timecode scene detection and edl capabilities - not sure about latest versions).
Another editor worth checking is Lightworks beta (free).

p.s. the scene detection is based on clock type of timecode, so this will only work if the tapes are actually shot with DV cam of some sort.

[mike_2008]

I just want to thank everyone for responding to my post. I thought that I learned a lot from doing a little research, but obviously from the responses I need to learn a lot more. I now understand that the AVI is just a wrapper around the codec and it sounds like the codecs can vary. I did find out that the AVI files I imported via Movie Maker have a codec of “dvsd” and a name of “DVC/DV Video”. This looks like a Panasonic codec and makes sense to me since I have an old Panasonic camera. It sound like a good combination to get the video imported and edited would be WinDV and VirtualDub. I do have a couple of questions:

- When I import the file with WinDV, does the Codec matter?
- Should I import using a Type1 or Type2 AVI file?
- What is the difference between VirtualDub and VirtualDubMod? Which one should I use to edit the DV?

I think I will tackle getting the video imported, edited, and backed up before dealing with Avisynth and encoding (ie HC Enc) as I now understand that I will not be able to watch an AVI (or Mkv) with proper encoding utilizing a PS3.

By the way, I apologize for posting this in Avisynth forum, but when I looked at the DV threads there were no active non sticky threads. Since that seemed odd, I decided to post in this thread.

[2Bdecided]

DVSD, DV, DVC/DV Video etc are all just names for the standard DV format that's recorded to DV tape, and transferred to PC as-is.

You have no choice of codec in WinDV, because it doesn't re-encode. You get a lossless copy of the DV from the tape.

Some editing software prefers Type2. Type2 has wider compatibility, but uses more space: it stores in the file as a separate stream (as well as interleaved with the video), to make it compatible with software (and VideoforWindows) which expects the audio separate. I use Type2.

VirtualDub is still developed, so has more features / less bugs than the most recent (2007?) release of VirtualDubMod (which didn't have any advantages for lossless DV editing anyway). But either would work fine.

Cheers,
David.

[Ghitulescu]

Questions
- Would exporting the edited video to avi format in Movie Maker preserve the original quality of the dv file?
- Could I benefit from using VirtualMod to edit the video? What are the typical benefits?
Questions
- Any reason to keep the original imported AVI file?
- Any tips on backing up AVI files to DVD-R?
- How long do the DV mini tapes last?
Questions
- Can this be done?
- Since disk space is cheap, I do not see any real benefit to compressing the video at this point.

I just want to thank everyone for responding to my post. I thought that I learned a lot from doing a little research, but obviously from the responses I need to learn a lot more. I now understand that the AVI is just a wrapper around the codec and it sounds like the codecs can vary. I did find out that the AVI files I imported via Movie Maker have a codec of “dvsd” and a name of “DVC/DV Video”. This looks like a Panasonic codec and makes sense to me since I have an old Panasonic camera. It sound like a good combination to get the video imported and edited would be WinDV and VirtualDub. I do have a couple of questions:

- When I import the file with WinDV, does the Codec matter?
- Should I import using a Type1 or Type2 AVI file?
- What is the difference between VirtualDub and VirtualDubMod? Which one should I use to edit the DV?

I think I will tackle getting the video imported, edited, and backed up before dealing with Avisynth and encoding (ie HC Enc) as I now understand that I will not be able to watch an AVI (or Mkv) with proper encoding utilizing a PS3.

By the way, I apologize for posting this in Avisynth forum, but when I looked at the DV threads there were no active non sticky threads. Since that seemed odd, I decided to post in this thread.
Yes, that's a wrong decision, as your thread has very very little to do with AviSynth (from your dozen questions only one has something to do with avisynth), and posting it into the right sub-forum allowed your question to "float" a longer time (there are here some 4 or 5 questions per day, yours will "sink" immediately, as people will look at the thread and ignore it).
DV is pretty much dead in terms of technology, like is VHS, there is nothing new under the sun for some time, people in need for an answer find them already there (except for "cleaning" which may change as new algorithms surface).

What if everyone starts asking in the wrong forum? Then the separation will play no role anyway and you'll get the same "structure" as the yahoo or google groups. People that try from netiquette to search first will be discouraged even more.

DV is an editing format, that means that with proper tools you can achieve lossless from tape to tape, should you think the tape as the final product. If you consider the DVD or the BD as a target, you can achieve lossless video (except the transitions and titles etc.) up to the entry in the corresponding encoder, which encoder should be the last stage before authoring (for optical media) or remuxing (for HDD, like AVI, MKV, MP4 etc.).