23.976 fps movie on LCD 60 Hz

[Didée]

This myth about peak and hold being a problem is also humorous.
The humorous part is you. Well, to me at least.

Peak&Hold / Sample&Hold being a problem (with film rates) is not a myth, but a technological/bio-sensual necessity. (If each one picture stays still for 40ms, but in the same 40ms the eye is moving on because it is actually tracking inter-frame motion, whaddoyou think is going to happen?)

But there's probably no point to extend on this, because you

don't like to argue, I just don't give a crap about anyone else's point of view, and am not going to change mine.

[ramicio]

It doesn't matter because the source is already motion blurred at those frame rates at the source. Try again.

[Didée]

Nope. Motion Blur does play a certain role, sure. But when it comes to effects of interaction between {sample&hold displays} and {human visualisation system}, then it's a much more minor role than usually assumed.

There is {something} on the screen. No matter if motion-blurred or not. This {something} is displayed static for a frame's time slot, and in the same time slot, the eye is moving.

The necessary consequence is: during the integration time of one frame, what actually happens on the eye's retina is that the motion is running backwards, I repeat: backwards in space, during the time slot of each one frame.

And that's the reason why things like interframe-creation actually make sense on modern TVs.

[hello_hello]

It's still humorous to see people thinking judder is simply because of low frame rates instead of the 3:2 pulldown stuff.

Who said they could see judder because of low frame rates? If you're referring to the effect I've referred to as "jitter", which I think is the same thing referred to as 24p strobe, then they're two completely different things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#Disadvantages_of_24p

I don't think anyone even remotely suggested going to 48p would solve judder problems if your still refreshing at 60hz.

Your reference to using ReClock to up the frame rate seems to forget ReClock can time stretch the audio to maintain pitch.

Flickering problems with Plasmas running at 48hz is probably the reason why most Plasmas use 96Hz instead these days.

I don't know much about the Peak & Hold phenomenon but I'd suspect it's more of a problem at speeds lower than those at which motion blur becomes a factor in perceiving motion. At least that's how "jitter" seems to be effected on my TV.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you seem to be able to discuss a subject rationally without needing to invite someone to kill you, threatening to kill others, or using labels such as idiot or retard for anyone you even think mightn't agree with you 100%.
Where you find a connection between having an open mind and wanting to be controlled or treated like cattle I don't know, but obviously it's untrue to the point of being ridiculous. I don't see anyone here having bent to your viewpoint simply because they're too open minded to form their own opinions. We all have our own viewpoints based on our own experiences, so as much at it might shock you, having an opinion on a subject based on yours simply makes you just like everyone else here.
Well.... except for an apparent paranoia. ;)

[ramicio]

Nope. Motion Blur does play a certain role, sure. But when it comes to effects of interaction between {sample&hold displays} and {human visualisation system}, then it's a much more minor role than usually assumed.

There is {something} on the screen. No matter if motion-blurred or not. This {something} is displayed static for a frame's time slot, and in the same time slot, the eye is moving.

The necessary consequence is: during the integration time of one frame, what actually happens on the eye's retina is that the motion is running backwards, I repeat: backwards in space, during the time slot of each one frame.

And that's the reason why things like interframe-creation actually make sense on modern TVs.

And things happen different on a screen where the image is flashed how? The eye is still tracking motion. The motion interpolation comment just proves you have your head up in the clouds/your ass.

[Didée]

@ramicio:

Erh, no. Point is that I am talking about technical (and bio-sensual) imperatives.

You are talking strong four-letter-words, but seemingly you don't fully understand the technical imperatives.


If you insist on the motion-blur thingy - here's the same sequence again (http://www.mediafire.com/?9ymxtxhhscs3jfg), this time with "film20_MB.av", wich provides a full motionblur (360° shutter).

- It still wobbles.

- the presence of motionblur does not solve the issue.

- The explanation why it doesn't solve was already given.

- If you don't understand, I can't help.

[ramicio]

Still can't interpolate frames from something with massive motion blur applied. It might work for something with a pretty open shutter, but those films are rare. It still doesn't change the fact that jackasses are now wanting to make movies that still don't divide evenly into refresh rates, or that there is no known way to transport these frame rates over a wire in the consumer market. I didn't know "ass" consisted of four letters.

That example is quite stupid. Of course something 20 FPS is going to be choppy. It's not going to be smooth on any kind of display. Of course 60 FPS looks smoother. It will be smooth on any display. Seriously, focus on one non-moving point with the lower frame rates, and it still judders. It's not because of motion tracking on a peak-and-hold display. Keep trying.

[Ghitulescu]

The ones that use stuff like 48 Hz and 96 Hz are the multi-thousand-dollar Pioneer types. Any plasma you can from a chain store is going to be the 600 Hz subfield type, with their panel running at 60 Hz.
It happens that I own such Pioneers (in fact, apart from the SAT receiver all the others are equally Pio). The panel is driven not at 48 neither at 96 but at 72, 75 and 100 (it's the European version, as the US one seems to have replaced 72 with 60).
I can't even comprehend what you're try to get at in your second paragraph. TVs and monitors are the same anymore. It sounds like you're referring to CRT stuff. As I recall people could force CRTs to run whatever they wanted outside of what the monitor listed as officially supported, as long as the H and V numbers made sense.
They are not the same. The monitors have a specific target - gamers and professionals (A/V/P, office and programmers). The gamers need the minimum minimorum at latency times, the A/V/P want a perfect colour calibration, the office need a higher refresh rate. And I never heard of a plasma monitor for PC. Where does your TV fit? ;)

Pioneer exited (http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2009/gb20090212_424440.htm)the plasma business in 2009. You probably meant Panasonic.
Panasonic bought both the technology and some facilities from Pioneer :)

[ramicio]

I haven't seen any current lines of plasma accept a 72 Hz signal. They all have a refresh rate of 60 Hz, anymore. I haven't seen any recently even accept anything other than HDMI and other cinema-oriented inputs. Even when I look at the manuals of any TVs that do happen to have a VGA input, you only have the options of 60/1.001 or 60 Hz. Why does office need a high refresh rate? I would think for general office, people simply don't care. If anything for high refresh rate, that should also be attributed to gamers. Monitors are not targeted towards anyone but consumers. Gamers fall into that area. Professionals who do photo or A/V have their own lines of monitors, and don't go to stores like Best Buy to get a monitor, or any other piece of internal hardware.

[Ghitulescu]

I don't know how is in the US, but in Europe there are health regulations, mostly derived from Swedish norms. One of them require a certain minimum fps, IIRC 75Hz, not to generate eyes fatigue.
The distribution is as I said, gamers and regular consumers, and professionals (office, AVP and programmers). And yes I know the market is split, also that a regular consumer generally can't afford buying one pro monitor should it be allowed (in Europe) to get access to a pro supplier. ;) If one is to judge from eBay, there are far more US individuals that sell pro gear than EU ones ...
Anyway, the high refresh rates of LCDs (as they share both the A/V and PC market) make them not really suitable for TV (the panel manufacturers are not that happy to hold several different lines), so they "marketed" the 200Hz, 300Hz, 400Hz, 600Hz "balloons" - which actually aggravated the judder and forced them to find patch-solutions to patch-solutions, namely the Intelligent Frame Creation, Motion Interpolation and other StarTrek fantasies ....

[ramicio]

Gamers are regular consumers who simply buy more than a single video card, and ricey (as in rice burner) peripherals. Offices use consumer-grade stuff for workers, bought from companies like Dell, HP who just put an enterprise price tag on everything to rob companies. It's just so egregious to see you spewing the same old crap. TV makers didn't use numbers like 120, 240, 480 because of problems. It's all marketing. I don't care what continent you are on. The average idiot thinks more is better, always. I don't see how high refresh rates of an LCD doesn't work for TV. Maybe you worded something wrong. Having a higher refresh rate like 240 Hz for a 24 Hz does NOTHING. The image is held there. It is not flashed 10 times. The problems simply don't arise in the theater, and theaters don't use film anymore. They use DLP, and the image is held there. But since it costs tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for one of those projectors, they only need to play back one frame rate (24/1.001) and they can display the movie just fine. I suggest you actually research products in the US, and even spend some time over here and consume our products before you people from Europe start shooting off at the mouth about how stuff works in Europe.

[Didée]

That example is quite stupid. Of course something 20 FPS is going to be choppy.
No, not stupid at all. You americans have been trained from birth till grownup with 3:2 pulldown, wich is "repeat: 2times-3times-2times-3times". When playing 20fps on a 60Hz display, the pattern is "repeat: 3times-3times-3times-3times". That's not too far away from what you guys are "used to see". Yes, of course 20fps overall appears more choppy than 24fps. But it perfectly shows the basic issue (reverse motion blur build-up on the retina), and without any fps/refresh-uneven-division getting in the way.

As already said: it shows exactly the issue. Just a little more pronounced, (but not utterly much).

And, for the sake of heaven, really .... I have the same sequence at 24fps, with and without motion blur. And when playing on either my PC (monitor at 48Hz), or on my HD-TV with motion-flow deactivated, then it wobbles exactly the same way as the 20fps sequence does. And this doesn't come as a surprise. it is exactly what is to be expected.

Technical necessities, you know, or don't.

[ramicio]

Yes, it very far off from what "we" are used to seeing. 3:2 is not 3:3. Frames judder in panning scenes in movies, even on non-peak-and-hold displays because each frame is not on the screen for an even duration. As I said, you should put your money where your mouth is actually live in the US instead of insinuate you even begin to know what you're talking about based on theory. WTF monitor are you running that can take a 48 Hz signal?

[Ghitulescu]

Gamers are regular consumers who simply buy more than a single video card, and ricey (as in rice burner) peripherals. Offices use consumer-grade stuff for workers, bought from companies like Dell, HP who just put an enterprise price tag on everything to rob companies. It's just so egregious to see you spewing the same old crap.

That is the common "myth" shared among those not having access to pro gear.
I own pro gear and I can tell you - my pro headphones beat hands down any Monster Dr Beat 500€ (now, this is robbery, like any Monster cable of 15.000$ pro linear meter), all Panasonic VCRs suffer from power supply issues, the pro ones don't (at least I haven't seen a single one in 30 years), consumer Sony TVs fail from the same PSU issue while the studio monitors may run non-stop for weeks, my pro DVD player based on Philips runs non-stop for days in a loop while it's civil brothers die after a few summed days (yes, the civil versions of optical pickup from Philips are prone to fatal defects within 2 years, and this includes High End gear that all use Philips optics) and I can go on and on ... The price tag is set so high to prevent the regular Joe to have access to them, but between a Mark Levinson of 10.000$ and a Tascam of only 1500$ I'll take eyes closed the Tascam. The same against a 500$ Denon.

But enough with this off-topic subject.

I still am convinced that an LCD supports natively 24/1001 only if specially designed so, not due to some smart tricks in the driver of the graphic card, and this is mainly a matter of [bad] luck. So, on-the-fly resampling (speed up/down) remains actually the only viable solution. We, here in PAL land, like the OP, are accustomed to 4% speed-up, so what's 0.1% speed down I may ask? ;)

[ramicio]

There is a difference between overhyped trash and regular consumer gear that is priced appropriately. Offices use consumer-grade computers priced at enterprise levels. We're not talking data center and server stuff here, we're talking desktops. There are no laws anywhere that prevents a person from buying pro gear. They are not priced so high so regular people don't buy them. WTF are you smoking? Enterprise/pro stuff is priced high because money is no object to businesses. If they need something they will spend what it costs. Gamers don't buy pro gear. They buy fake pro gear, ricey stuff, like the overhyped Beats you mentioned.

The panels themselves support anything. It's the driving circuitry that is the limiting factor. Again, because of a language barrier, I don't understand the question about about the 0.1% speed down. Why would anyone in their right mind film at an exact 24 just to have to slow it down for disc? I don't see why film itself can't be slowed down that little bit.

[Ghitulescu]

There is a difference between overhyped trash and regular consumer gear that is priced appropriately. Offices use consumer-grade computers priced at enterprise levels. We're not talking data center and server stuff here, we're talking desktops. There are no laws anywhere that prevents a person from buying pro gear. They are not priced so high so regular people don't buy them. WTF are you smoking? Enterprise/pro stuff is priced high because money is no object to businesses. If they need something they will spend what it costs. Gamers don't buy pro gear. They buy fake pro gear, ricey stuff, like the overhyped Beats you mentioned.
Some items you can't buy in Germany as a "civilian" because they are taxed differently and you cannot do it (and the seller cannot fill in the tax forms - it's a bit more complicated).
And pro gear, be it desktops, are never sold as they are - the company that sold us some Dells is required to solve ANY incident within 1 hour or they face penalities. Imagine they have to keep several engineers on stand-by for the "case of the cases" - who's gonna pay them and from what money, may I ask? :) Also with the package comes often with service, which is not really cheap, because enterprise desktops are not valuable because they have who-knows-what CPUs or RAM or HDDs, but they contain confidential data - this darling costs a lot (NDA, insurances etc.). A business laptop is light, made of magnesium alloy and has non-glaring screen. It survives harsh conditions. A consumer laptop is "ergonomically" designed, has a low battery std-by and a reflecting display (or they have to add some 100-200€ to get a non-glaring one). I'm not saying the business world is fair, but people are generally missinformed.

[Ghitulescu]

Offices use consumer-grade computers priced at enterprise levels. We're not talking data center and server stuff here, we're talking desktops.

Sorry for this second message, I overlooked this.

I own two pro computers from Siemens, they have been used non-stop for 5 years then replaced (there is a 5-years short business term plan here, it applies everywhere, computers, cars, wives) when I've bought them. They work now as my internet PCs (one is this one I am writing right now at). Unlike other Siemens PCs I had, they do not care about this at all (I'm still using them 24/7 for 4 years now). I please ask you to use a consumer HDD for 9 years almost non-stop :), most of them do not reach the 5th year in office conditions (8hours/day, 5days/week). The fan is silent and is better regulated as in consumer types. The air flow is superb designed, the PSU is special - the only negative thing is that they can't be so easily upgraded.

[ramicio]

So it's because of the EU and not specifically Germany? It sounds like VAT-related stuff. The US should be under that kind of tyranny soon enough. Here, Dell doesn't do anything for support, even for server stuff. We had a server not accept either of two of THEIR brand NICs without flipping out and crashing, they didn't do anything. When components in our work desktops die, we find it easiest to put aftermarket stuff in there. Even with warranties, the consumer can get the same level of service the businesses get. Say you're doing a hard drive RMA. Businesses get the service quick because they put credit up in case the warranty isn't covered, and they send out a hard drive before they receive it. A consumer can get the same level of service simply by providing a credit card number. Enterprise stuff is entirely overpriced, and it's simply because it can be.

And an enterprise hard drive is no different than a consumer one. There is no NASA technology involved. The only differences usually are firmware, to better work with RAID cards. Other than that you have the faster spinning and SAS. None of that makes them technologically superior to last any bit longer. There are plenty of consumers with old hard drives. Most people just have higher demands and upgrade hard drives as a need for space.

[Didée]

Yes, it very far off from what "we" are used to seeing. 3:2 is not 3:3. Frames judder in panning scenes in movies, even on non-peak-and-hold displays because each frame is not on the screen for an even duration. As I said, you should put your money where your mouth is actually live in the US instead of insinuate you even begin to know what you're talking about based on theory. WTF monitor are you running that can take a 48 Hz signal?
The middle sentence is too long/confusing, I don't fully get it. Why should I live in the US? To get experience with the limited/crippled hardware you (seem to) have over there?

I run a WTF fuggin' Eizo Foris, capable of fuggin' 24Hz, fuggin' 25Hz, fuggin' 30hz, fuggin' 48Hz, fuggin' 50Hz, and 60Hz.
And that's not only "accepted signal" - when set, the panel actually refreshs at those rates. No judder, no internal pulldown tricks.

Similar my TV-set (a Samsung eLED LCD) uses a panel that operates at 100/120 Hz physical refresh rate, automatically switching acc. to input signal. Feed it with anything - 24p, 25i/p, 30i/p, 50p, 60p - no uneven pulldown, no pulldown-related judder.

Well, regardless whether-or-not "I don't even begin to understand what I'm talking about"....
....you, at least, seem to live where nothing except fixed 60Hz seems to exist? Dunno behind which moon that is, but it can't be Luna. It must be much farther away.

[Guest]

Gents, let's please keep it nonpersonal and avoid rule 4 vocabulary. Thanks!

[ramicio]

Exactly. We have crippled hardware, and I hate it, and it's mostly people chiming in from other places who have no idea how bad it is here in regards to even niche markets disappearing (pretty sure the whole global economy is turning into this, slowly, though). Our panels stay at their refresh rates, they do not change refresh rates based in input video signal. It sucks. The only thing I miss about CRTs is the huge variety of resolutions and refresh rates you could run. I don't miss the eye strain, however.

[Didée]

@neuron2: I would prefer so, definetly. (Though on my part, I'm not seriously cursing, but only joking.)
But then, it's not easy when you "theorize" about the impossibility of squaring a circle, and are then faced with "you don't know what you're talking about" and "come to the US where everything is different".


On a more constructive note, and strictly related to the original 24/60 problem:

When one is going to play some 24fps FILM and one is stuck with a fixed 60Hz display, one could use motion interpolation to at least lessen the judder from 3:2 pulldown:
instead of "A-A-B-B-B", construct "A-A-I-B-B", with "I" being the motion-interpolation between A and B.

With Avisynth's MVTools, this would basically go like

clip_at_24fps
[create vectors & superclip]
MFlowFPS(last,super,vector_bckwrd,vector_frwrd,num=0) # double the fps ...
Selectevery(4,0,0,1,2,2) # ... and select as needed

This should be an acceptable compromise between reducing the 3:2 judder, and not creating the soap-opera look.
As usual, the interpolations may contain some artifacts here'n there, but in this configuration they are hardly noticeable (only 16ms frame time, and only 1 out of 5 frames).

[ramicio]

It doesn't work, I don't care to alter my video, and I don't want an AVS script for every media file I have. I don't mind the soap opera look, it's just that there's no way to interpolate smoothly to any display I own, and even so, I don't want added fake frames with artifacts (alluding to the TVs creating 4 fake frames, not your script which creates one.)

I actually tried the 48 Hz mode on my TV. It does work, but it introduces very horrible flicker. I don't know if it's just my eyes, but I really can't watch it. I could watch a bland, lifeless movie on it with no brights, though.