VHS Tape to 60 FPS: Who Has Done This?

[VirtualDubFan]

I've been trying unsuccessfully to convert some VHS tapes to 60 FPS. I'm aware of the difference between theatrical telecine conversions and straight video.

My theory is that NTSC VHS tape gets its maximum and most efficient quality conversion by capturing at 384 x 480 at 29.97 FPS and deinterlacing to (double that, about) 60 FPS. By doing this I propose that one can extract digital video from a VHS tape that is superior to what the viewer would see watching the tape as originally intended on an old-style CRT television.

I believe this is possible, but despite multiple searches on the dominant web search engine, I haven't found comments by anyone who's done it. It seems like something that somebody would have done, but I haven't found that it my searches.

What I'm saying is that use of an intelligent deinterlace filter on the upper set and then the lower set of the interlace line pairs should be able to yield super-smooth 60 FPS video that is very good and basically genuine.

I use a Brooktree 878 PCI card and a 933 MHz Pentium 3 with 512 megs of RAM. Windows 2000.

[Asmodian]

This is just bob deinterlacing isn't it? I like nnedi3 or QTGMC in avisynth but there are a lot of good options. I use an i7 920 @ 3.2 Ghz, these might be too slow for you on a p3 933.

I currently capture from a SVHS VCR 720x480@29.97 and bob deinterlace to 720x480@59.94 then resize to ~656x480 (needed cropping can change the final resolution). Motion is noticeably smoother using bob deinterlacing.

Edit: It is called "bob" deinterlacing because simply separating the fields and resizing to the original resolution makes the video appear to bob up and down due to the 1 line offset, the newer bob deinterlacers compensate for this. Nvidia's CUVID hardware bob deinterlacing (I use DGDecodeNV to access it) is pretty good too.

[VirtualDubFan]

I currently capture from a SVHS VCR 720x480@29.97 and bob deinterlace to 720x480@59.94 then resize to ~656x480 (needed cropping can change the final resolution). Motion is noticeably smoother using bob deinterlacing.


When you frame-by-frame advance your conversions you see individual frames, each of unique motion, at 59.94?

[Asmodian]

Yes, the original video was recorded as interlaced (camcorder).

[Ghitulescu]

VHS is just a storage format (interlaced). Everything that has been said about deinterlacing equally applies to VHS.
When it may contain progressive material (movies), it would make more sense to restore the film cadence rather than deinterlace it at twice the fps.
Camcorder recordings are (pure) interlaced, so in this case, depending on the "motion speed" (landscape vs. sport), one method or the other might be more appropriate, in particular when the fps must be kept, for standard compatibility.

[Asmodian]

For this project my content is modern dance with every field at a different time. The final format is H.264 for computer viewing only so bob deinterlacing is much preferred.

I agree, a native 24 fps film should not be bobbed whatever it has been recorded on.

[cord-factor]

I was doing similar. In my case it was PAL. I've captured it via S-Video on TvTuner (saa7134) in 768x576@50i Huffyuv (square pixels). Next, deinterlace with yadif=1 (bob, x2fps), crop as needed, and resize (all of this I was doing in Avidemux, thanks to developers ;) ).
The final video was 384x288@50p x264.

[VirtualDubFan]

Thanks for responding, Cord-Factor and all. I've tried a lot of different deinterlace options and filters, and they get me to 60 FPS, but it's still never frames of individually progressive motion. They double up, appearing in some of my efforts to have different dithering amongst each pair of frames, but never can I seem to get unique motion frames.

I've always been, as my nick states, a VirtualDub fan, but I'm now also working with Avidemux, and that is great too. Wow.

Cord-Factor, which Avidemux deinterlace filter specifically did you use? There's a bunch of them in there. (I'm using Windows version 2.5.3/2.5.5.) I read what you wrote carefully and tried to find a filter that precisely matched what you were saying, but no luck.

Anyone else who's successfully done this, I'd like to hear your specific method. And if you point me to a sample of your conversion that would be even better. I would esp. like to see VHS conversion to 60 FPS (or if PAL, 50 FPS) but if you originally captured it "live" from interlaced TV or whatever that's fine too.

[poisondeathray]

I've tried a lot of different deinterlace options and filters, and they get me to 60 FPS, but it's still never frames of individually progressive motion. They double up, appearing in some of my efforts to have different dithering amongst each pair of frames, but never can I seem to get unique motion frames.


Is it possible that you have hardware issues ? Perhaps you are getting dropped and/or duplicate frames because your hardware cannot keep up ?


I use a Brooktree 878 PCI card and a 933 MHz Pentium 3 with 512 megs of RAM. Windows 2000.

[cord-factor]

VirtualDubFan, what do you not understand? Ok, verbose... :)
1. Capture the analog video from VCR (VHS recoder, etc...).
The feature is that you must save frame fields (interpolating) during capture. No any deinterlace actions at this step!
If you also need sound, I would suggest to use dvsd video codec and PCM audio. It is because you may get out of a-v sync, if use VBR mode in sound. With dvsd+PCM I have never got it, so that is advise.
2. You have AVI file with interlaced video. Open it in Avidemux (I am using 2.5.4 version). Choose the video codec you want to compress video to. Open filter tab, Interlacing -> yadif (Temporal&spatial check and set field order).
That's it.

[VirtualDubFan]

Is it possible that you have hardware issues ? Perhaps you are getting dropped and/or duplicate frames because your hardware cannot keep up ?

No. I capture with VirtualDub and it tells you whether you're getting dropped or inserted frames. I can capture at 29.97 at 352 x 480 in RGB24 without dropped or inserted frames. And looking over the capture after, stepping through it, it's clearly a solid interlaced capture. My hardware can handle it.

[poisondeathray]

No. I capture with VirtualDub and it tells you whether you're getting dropped or inserted frames. I can capture at 29.97 at 352 x 480 in RGB24 without dropped or inserted frames. And looking over the capture after, stepping through it, it's clearly a solid interlaced capture. My hardware can handle it.

If what you say is true, then every field should be a separate moment in time when you examine separate fields. When you bob deinterlace, you will get 60p individual separate frames

That is, assuming it's a 60i source, not from a film source or telecined for example


Maybe posting a sample of the capture will help

[VirtualDubFan]

1. Capture the analog video from VCR (VHS recoder, etc...).
The feature is that you must save frame fields (interpolating) during capture. No any deinterlace actions at this step!
If you also need sound, I would suggest to use dvsd video codec and PCM audio. It is because you may get out of a-v sync, if use VBR mode in sound. With dvsd+PCM I have never got it, so that is advise.
2. You have AVI file with interlaced video. Open it in Avidemux (I am using 2.5.4 version). Choose the video codec you want to compress video to. Open filter tab, Interlacing -> yadif (Temporal&spatial check and set field order).
That's it.

Yah, Cord-Factor, I did this now like you said (except you forgot I think to say include the bob option on Yadif filter). No dice on progressive frames. I can get 60 FPS that way, but never progressive smooth motion. Like results I've got before, yes they are 60 distinct frames, but in motionless pairs that appear dithered differently.

I think when you talk above about capturing "interpolated" that you just mean interlaced. I don't deinterlace anything at capture. I can see clearly that my captured frames are interlaced by the "comb" appearance. I get 29.97 FPS progressive motion interlaced frames when I capture. I step through them in VirtualDub to be sure.

[VirtualDubFan]

Poison, if you pm me an email address where you can receive a file of maybe 800 megs, I will see about sending you a sample of my raw capture. Same to you, Cord.

[cord-factor]

VirtualDubFan, you can use http://multi-up.com/
Yes, it's russian (it's my native, so I don't know any english). However, all things is intuitively simple - 'Choose file' and 'залить' (means 'upload'). There is also 100mb limit per file. Well, you can use RAR/7z to create multivolume archive of 8 x 100mb... or more
Glad to help you.

except you forgot I think to say include the bob option on Yadif filter
No, I didn't say about bob cause it's matter of course (the only mode for yadif in Avidemux).


UPDATE:
but in motionless pairs that appear dithered differently
Seems to be the wrong field order... What did you set? 'upper field first'? - try 'lower field first' or conversely.

[VirtualDubFan]

However, all things is intuitively simple - 'Choose file' and 'залить' (means 'upload'). There is also 100mb limit per file. Well, you can use RAR/7z to create multivolume archive of 8 x 100mb... or more
Glad to help you.


No, I didn't say about bob cause it's matter of course (the only mode for yadif in Avidemux).


UPDATE:

Seems to be the wrong field order... What did you set? 'upper field first'? - try 'lower field first' or conversely.

Yeah I thought about that, and think I have tried it both ways in various attempts, but if that were the problem I think I would be getting jumpy video, not video composed of pairs.

I am uploading like you suggested, just a ZIP file of 85.6 megs, called "VirtualDubFan_sample_capture.zip." I have a slow connection and it might be another 45 minutes. Thank you

[Asmodian]

If you get pairs of frames after a bob deinterlace it is almost sure you do not have real interlaced video but rather something that was progressive but has been converted for display on interlaced devices.

Telecined film is very common, almost ubiquitous in NTSC land with older sources.

A simple Seperatefields().resize(width, height) in avisynth and then looking for motion in every frame is a quick and easy way to check.