Do UK bluray players apply telecine ?

[sneaker_ger]

Well, I am re-encoding the backup anyway to x264 so may as well re-encode the audio while I am at. Its trivial enough. And it means I can play it back by simply pressing play, not having to play with reclock or ffdshow.

It's not like you'd have to setup ReClock more than once. I suppose your laptop display doesn't use a multiple of 25 Hz, so it would be juddery as well. I just don't see the point in investing more time (reencoding every audio track in comparison to setting up ReClock once), when sometime in the future you might get a working 24 Hz setup. What are you gonna do then? Redo all your backups or setup ReClock to slowdown, degrading the sound quality even further (speedup->encode->slowdown) and having to do what you originally wanted to avoid?
But I guess I've made my point and will just be repeating myself from now on. Either way, it's your choice - do whatever you're fine with. I just wanted to show you a different route, that I think makes more sense.

[hello_hello]

How come your motion was jittery but not with no judder ?

Well I guess if you described "judder" as the effect of NTSC "3:2 pulldown" (24fps @ 60Hz etc) then the effect of 25fps @ 50Hz would be something you could describe as "jitter", I guess. Motion doesn't have the same "judder", but it's still not completely fluent.

[Ghitulescu]

Ahh, I'll check my mixer. I think kmixer is for linux no ? I'll check my windows audio mixer. Never thought of that !

The very first page in google after searching for kmixer:

KMixer is the Kernel Audio Mixer driver, a part of WDM Audio in various versions of Microsoft Windows which handles the mixing of....

[madhatter300871]

Ghitulescu ... yes, I should have googled it ! I work with Linux based VTS surveillance systems and use the KDE environment, Kmixer is the name of the audio mixer. Sometimes everything moulds into one and confusion sets in in my brain ! .... Thanks for the link.

Sneaker_ger ... I am thankfull for your points on Reclock, in fact I am coming round to your way of thinking. Just need to sort out my audio chain and see if the mixer is whats screwing up my levels.

Hello_Hello .... I play my 25fps material on a 50Hz display and it's very fluid indeed. I've never seen any "jitter" but I'll be looking out for it now ;)

[AnonCrow]

for 20 years or more all the monitors are multisynch
I find that over the past 20 years, true[1] multisync monitors[2] have gotten more and more rare.


[1] continuous scan range from 15,xxx Khz upto ~40/65/83KHz,
instead of fixed 15.xxx (and 24Khz), then 31.5Khz and up.

[2] Such TVs and especially projectors have become more common

[hello_hello]

Hello_Hello .... I play my 25fps material on a 50Hz display and it's very fluid indeed. I've never seen any "jitter" but I'll be looking out for it now ;)

Maybe the type of display being used makes a difference?
Using my Plasma I don't see judder (or jitter) all that often, but if the motion's at just the right speed across the screen then when I do see it, it's either one or the other (depending on the frame rate).
At one stage I took a "juddery" section of 23.976fps video and remuxed it at 25fps just to see how different it'd look. It still appeared to move in "steps" rather than being completely fluid, but without the judder.

[madhatter300871]

Yes, maybe it does. I've never owned a Plasma, my PJ and TV are both LCD. So far, with the PJ which is what I use for for movies, I have had no jitter or judder playing back content at 25fps.

Instead of remuxing it to 25fps, have you also tried using reclock to speed it up to 25fps at playback ? I have been guided towards reclock from this forum and , while I am still checking out some audio issues, I must say that the speedup to 25fps seems flawless.

[hello_hello]

I can't use reclock to speed everything up to 25fps yet as I can only connect the PC to the TV at 60Hz (even though I'm in PAL land).
Currently though I'm using the VGA connector. I haven't tried HDMI yet. It's possible the TV only supports 60Hz from a PC. The manual isn't exactly overly informative. Actually thinking about it, I'm not sure if I have the slightest clue whether my video card supports 50Hz using a VGA/DVI connector. Maybe I need to look into that.....
At the moment I use reclock to play everything at 24fps at it's the closest match to my 60Hz refresh rate, so I'm mostly reclocking in the opposite direction to you.

When I get a chance I'll upload a little section of video for you to try. It's actually just credits rolling past but on my TV they either look juddery at 24fps or jittery at 25/30fps. The only way they look fluid to me is scrolling past at 50/60fps (depending on the refresh rate).

--When I said I tried remuxing 24fps video to 25fps earlier and it was "jittery" I was actually using the Bluray player to test that video as it'll connect to the TV at 50Hz. The PC won't, so to use it for the same tests I've got to change the frame rate from 24fps to 30fps (at 60Hz). Either way though, motion can still be "jittery" instead of "juddery".
That's kind of why I lost interest in worrying about the judder, when motion still doesn't always look "fluid" even without it. It's something I only see every now and then anyway. It's not like the entire video is a constant judder distraction. For me the only real "fix" to make everything perfectly fluid would be a 50/60fps frame rate.

[hello_hello]

madhatter300871,
Thinking about it, does the original sample (http://www.spirton.com/uploads/InterFrame/20110618-Sample-Original.mkv) from this page (http://www.spirton.com/convert-videos-to-60fps/) look smooth/fluent to you if you convert it to 25fps? The first few seconds where the camera is panning still doesn't look smooth/fluent to me even at 30fps and 60Hz. There's no judder so it definitely looks better than it does at 24fps, but it's still a little "jittery".
At 60fps the camera panning is perfectly fluid, although 60fps is naturally too much of a speed increase.

[madhatter300871]

Hello_Hello

I'm away from home for a few weeks but I do want to continue this when I get back. I have downloaded the clip and played it on my laptop (I know its beating the object of this) and I do think I know what you mean during that panning scene.

I'll speed it up to 25fps when I get home and have another look and then I'll post you an answer.

[madhatter300871]

Back home from a business trip and have had a fresh look at this. I have now successfully used reclock to speed up my video to 25fps and resample the audio accordingly. There is off course a small increase in pitch but it has no impact on listening/viewing pleasure.

The volume problem I was having was indeed a mixer problem, , as Ghitulescu pointed out. My mixer had to be set to enable 'Dolby Live mode', not very intuitive but this enabled Dolby audio to be connected to my external amp via the optical spdif and all 5.1 channels burst back into life.

So I won't be re-encoding everything at 25fps and resampling the audio accordingly, reclock works a treat now I have figured out how to use it properly !

Hello_Hello : I downloaded the sample you linked to but could not speed it up to 25fps with reclock because it is video only - it doesn't have an audio stream. When played back as-is it judders if my projector is in either 50hz or 60hz mode, 50hz is worst. I then used avisynth to speed it up to 25fps and with my projector set at 50hz it played smooth, no judder what-so-ever. I think you might have better results if you connect your PC to your TV via HDMI, it may well be the case that you then don't need reclock at all as the TV will support 24p, if not then you could use reclock to play at 25fps with the TV at 50Hz ?

All of my troubles have been caused by the movie frame rate not being a multiple of the screen refresh rate. My projector is old, doesn't support 24p and there is no way I am replacing it yet, took me ages building my bespoke screen so reclock it is :)

[Ghitulescu]

To support both 24 and 24/1.001 you may use the VGA input and set the screen resolutions accordingly, ie 1024x768 and 800x600, respectively.
For DVDs and HD-DVDs you may activate the "Film" mode, which IVTC the regular 3:2 and 2:2 modes.
You may buy another projector, or, for the same amount of money, buy a "video optimiser" like DVDO Edge Green which has the possibility to adapt 24p to 50/60i (HDMI to HDMI).

[hello_hello]

Hello_Hello : I downloaded the sample you linked to but could not speed it up to 25fps with reclock because it is video only - it doesn't have an audio stream. When played back as-is it judders if my projector is in either 50hz or 60hz mode, 50hz is worst. I then used avisynth to speed it up to 25fps and with my projector set at 50hz it played smooth, no judder what-so-ever.

Sorry I forgot reclock wouldn't speed it up. I remuxed it at different frame rates while I was testing.
Yeah the judder disappears when the refresh rate is an exact multiple of the frame rate but on my TV at least the panning is still not smooth. The motion still appears to happen in "even steps", but without juddering. Experimenting with my CRT monitor gave me the same results.
Maybe due to the way it displays the video a projector tends to smooth stuff out more than a TV?
Ultimately I'd like to be able to use an AVISynth script to simply convert everything to 50 or 60 fps in real time (on playback). It looks really good on my TV but so far I've only been able to get it to work in real time for standard definition video. I didn't really spend a lot of time on it when I initially tried the script but I will sometime in the future. If using the mutlithreaded version of AVISynth can take all the workload off a single core it should work fine.

I think you might have better results if you connect your PC to your TV via HDMI, it may well be the case that you then don't need reclock at all as the TV will support 24p, if not then you could use reclock to play at 25fps with the TV at 50Hz ?

Yeah, reclock speeding everything up to 25fps is my current plan, I'll just have to get motivated to buy a DVI/HDMI adaptor sometime soon.
It's weird though that the judder which bothers you a fair bit doesn't really worry me that much (it's not like I see it all the time) while the jitter I see when the judder's gone is almost as bad as the judder was to me, while to you it looks smooth.
Different types of display? Different way we perceive things? Who knows....

[madhatter300871]

Hello_Hello : My projector isn't smoothing anything out, in fact I have turned off all of the "enhancments" anyway. Even so, they where only black stretch, noise reduction, that kind of thing.

I see NTSC judder all of the time, I can't miss it, but your right ... it's funny what annoys some people doesn't annoy others.

When I say "judder" I mean that every second there is a very definite stutter in slow moving panning scenes. This is a known and well documented phenomenon due to 23.976 not being a multiple of 25. I am still not exactly sure what you mean by "jitter" so I don't really know if I am seeing it in the downloaded sample, could you try to explain exactly what is is ?

Ghitulescu : Not buying a projector just yet .... the finance committee has blocked this motion for the time being :( Of all the things I've tried I now use reclock with good results.

[Ghitulescu]

Ghitulescu : Not buying a projector just yet .... the finance committee has blocked this motion for the time being :( Of all the things I've tried I now use reclock with good results.
But have you tried the other three solutions? :)

[hello_hello]

When I say "judder" I mean that every second there is a very definite stutter in slow moving panning scenes. This is a known and well documented phenomenon due to 23.976 not being a multiple of 25. I am still not exactly sure what you mean by "jitter" so I don't really know if I am seeing it in the downloaded sample, could you try to explain exactly what is is ?

Maybe jitter is the wrong word but I guess I use it to describe a lack of fluid motion. Maybe stutter would be another word to use.
In the video in question I can only see it at the start when the camera is panning, but even at 30fps/60hz the motion of the camera pan doesn't look fluid on my TV. It's like the camera pan happens in quick, but distinguishable "steps". Unlike judder though they're even steps.

That's why some newer TVs have a function to add "interpolated" frames to make motion more fluid. It may not be something you can see using a projector. If you can't I'm not sure why as I don't know much about projectors.

[Richard1485]

In the video in question I can only see it at the start when the camera is panning, but even at 30fps/60hz the motion of the camera pan doesn't look fluid on my TV. It's like the camera pan happens in quick, but distinguishable "steps". Unlike judder though they're even steps.

I know exactly what you're describing. Even when my Blu-ray player is outputting "1080p24" to my 24fps capable set, I often see this kind of motion during camera pans. At first I thought that it was because film is inherently jerky, even with a 3:3 or 5:5 pulldown applied, but recently I've been wondering if part of it is how televisions process 23.976fps HD signals.

[hello_hello]

I think film is inherently jerky. A Higher frame rate probably wouldn't hurt. I mentioned earlier in the thread, when I was experimenting with frame rates a while back, the only frame rate which gave me perfectly fluid motion was 60fps (at 60hz).

Is the same effect during motion something you can see when watching a movie at the cinema? I wouldn't know. I've probably been to the cinema twice in the last five or six years.

[Richard1485]

Is the same effect during motion something you can see when watching a movie at the cinema? I wouldn't know. I've probably been to the cinema twice in the last five or six years.

That's about as often as I go too, but I've made a mental note to check next time. I certainly don't recall the effect, so I wonder if US 120Hz sets experience it, or if it's related to how European TVs handle 23.976fps content.

[hello_hello]

I'd be surprised if it's unique to European TVs. Maybe because I just wasn't looking for it, or maybe because the screen size is smaller, I'd not noticed it in the past when playing video on my CRT monitor. I can see it now though.

[sneaker_ger]

Since the advent of HDTV European sets don't really differ from the US TVs with the exception of universal support for 50 Hz input. When playing 24p Blu-Rays Europeans for the first time got the same judder the US viewers were already used to, i.e. 24 Hz played at 60 Hz. Maybe 24p mode got a bit more marketing in Europe because it was a new problem there, but that's about it.

[Richard1485]

When playing 24p Blu-Rays Europeans for the first time got the same judder the US viewers were already used to

I believe I had already experienced that judder when playing NTSC imports, unless European equipment does something different from a 2:3 pulldown when playing back NTSC.

I'm still interested to know exactly how playback of 23.976fps material and playback of true 24p material differ. There must be some explanation for the effect during motion that hello_hello described.

[hello_hello]

I'm still interested to know exactly how playback of 23.976fps material and playback of true 24p material differ. There must be some explanation for the effect during motion that hello_hello described.

I think it's just a matter of whether the TV supports 24p. ie if it can use a refresh rate which is an even multiple of the frame rate. I think 120hz is fairly common but I've been doing a little more research and it seems 24hz is also used. I guess it was the 24p refresh rate used before manufacturers started bumping it up so they could claim it was better when marketing TVs. I think 23.976 can still be played in 24p mode (I assume the player just plays it as 24fps) otherwise it's 60hz with judder. From what I understand at the moment a PC needs Vista or higher to be able to use a refresh rate of 24hz (I'm still on XP) but I'll have to do some more googling/reading.

Thanks to this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1547864#post1547864) I discovered when using the PC I can use different refresh rates with my TV if I'm willing to sacrifice a little resolution (which is no big deal as 99.9% of the video I play is 720p), which will allow me to use a 70hz or 72hz refresh rate to fix the judder (my TV doesn't support 24p). I haven't had time to experiment with it much yet but while I doubt it'll effect the "jitter" hopefully it'll get rid of the judder.
Eventually I might stick Win7 on this PC just to see what refresh rates I can use and how much difference it makes. I've got the PC connected via VGA at the moment so I'll have to try to pick up a DVI adapter soon to see if the refresh rates the TV supports using HDMI are any different. Unfortunately the manual tells me nothing.

[Richard1485]

I think it's just a matter of whether the TV supports 24p. ie if it can use a refresh rate which is an even multiple of the frame rate.

That's just it though. 24 is an even multiple of 120, but 23.976 isn't, so there must be some difference in how those frame rates are handled, even if it's simply that 199.88Hz is also supported.

I think 120hz is fairly common but I've been doing a little more research and it seems 24hz is also used.

Surely film material can't be displayed at 24Hz though because the judder would be awful. The TV has to apply a 5:5 pulldown or some such.

[sneaker_ger]

I believe I had already experienced that judder when playing NTSC imports, unless European equipment does something different from a 2:3 pulldown when playing back NTSC.

I should have written "average European viewer". The average person does not import NTSC titles.

[smok3]

the film fps is certainly bothering some people in the industry as well, like Peter Jackson with his gnome saga:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/49234

slightly offtopic:
as for the LCD & plasma stuff, this days i'am playing with kona3g connected with some JVC LCD display and its pure pain so far, to look at SD resolution for example, it does switch from 50i to 60i easily thought, but thats really not an issue if all the material is 25p or 50i..., not to mention the wonderfull drivers that aja did with cooperation with adobe (crash after crash, loosing embeded SDI audio all the time, ect..., and thats on 12 core machine btw - and all that was supposed to be used for pros). Whats interesting is that it can for example play HD tga sequence with alpha in real-time on premiere timeline, but who cares really.

Basically an LCD can't be any reference for say PAL people still using crt displays, so my first job after new year will be to find a small crt display to put it onto 2nd aja output.

To conclude: I love crt't.

[hello_hello]

That's just it though. 24 is an even multiple of 120, but 23.976 isn't, so there must be some difference in how those frame rates are handled, even if it's simply that 199.88Hz is also supported.

I was looking at a TV manual (not one I own) while discussing this subject in another thread, and I'm pretty sure it's refresh rates in "film mode" were either 23.976hz or 24hz.
Chances are (although I don't know for sure) some players/TVs may simply speed 23.976 video up to 24fps to match a refresh rate such as 120hz. I doubt anyone would complain.

Surely film material can't be displayed at 24Hz though because the judder would be awful. The TV has to apply a 5:5 pulldown or some such.

Why? The whole cause of judder is the refresh rate not being an exact multiple of the frame rate. You can't get a closer frame/refresh rate match than them being exactly the same so there'd be no pulldown required.
I think higher refresh rates (72hz or 120hz) are used because it sells TVs (especially LCDs) and because having the same refresh rate and frame rate can cause "flicker". Plus higher refresh rates are supposed to increase an LC's response time. Not that I'm an expert on it but I think the flicker problem is a Plasma one, not an LCD one. I do recall reading somewhere that Plasma TVs which support 24p use higher refresh rates these days to fix the flicker problem.

[hello_hello]

I should have written "average European viewer". The average person does not import NTSC titles.

They don't seem to have to. Yesterday my sister hired a few DVDs (I'm in Australia) and one of them was NTSC. That's not an especially unusual occurrence. I don't know exactly why the local shop hires out NTSC DVDs at times (they're a big video chain). Maybe it's something to do with the availability of a PAL version.... I'm not sure.

[Richard1485]

That's not an especially unusual occurrence.

I've experienced the same thing, especially with rentals.

[hello_hello]

I guess it shows how universally playback of NTSC discs is supported by PAL players because the fact you're hiring an NTSC disc isn't something the video shop ever feels the need to point out, and most people hiring DVDs probably wouldn't even notice whether a disc is PAL or NTSC.

[madhatter300871]

The projector doesn't do anything inherently different from a TV, be it LCB or plasma. The only difference would be the supported refresh rates/resolutions and built-in enhancements (which I turn off anyway).

Motion judder (NTSC judder if you like) is without a doubt caused by the refresh rate not being a multiple of the movie frame rate. I overcome this completely by using a PC and speeding up to 25fps, the change in audio pitch isn't noticeable.

I use windows XP and I can set my Nvidia card to output at 24Hz no problem by defining a custom resolution. My projector, however, doesn't like it so I stick with 50Hz and 25fps playback. It's smooth and flawless.

I don't think I'll ever have a standalone player now, the PC is much more flexible and once set up correctly gives excellent performance. I also wont move to Vista or 7 until I am absolutely forced to, XP is performing excellently as a platform for media playback. OK, later operating systems offer supposedly better renderers etc but really, my whole movie experience is quite superb.

What model of TV do you have ? You might want to try connecting via the HDMI connection, maybe the VGA and HDMI handle refresh rates differently, I really don't know. It's a long shot but ....

[hello_hello]

The projector doesn't do anything inherently different from a TV, be it LCB or plasma. The only difference would be the supported refresh rates/resolutions and built-in enhancements (which I turn off anyway).

I'm not so sure, but I know nothing about projectors. However someone else in this thread (I think) said they can see the "jitter" I described, however maybe how much of it you can see is display related in some way I don't understand.
I'm pretty sure what I'm referring to is what's described here as 24p "strobe". It is something different to "judder".
Disadvantages of 24p (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#Disadvantages_of_24p)
As I said I can only see it during camera pans or motion at particular speeds (like the beginning of that sample). At higher speeds it's at least far less noticeable, maybe because motion blur kicks in and the brain starts to piece the frames together differently. I'm not too sure. I guess in that respect it has similarities to judder which I can generally only see at certain speeds too. If motion is fairly slow or really quick the judder effect seems to disappear. I guess that's why originally I said for me if I eliminate the judder I'm still left with the jitter where the judder used to be. :)

I use windows XP and I can set my Nvidia card to output at 24Hz no problem by defining a custom resolution. My projector, however, doesn't like it so I stick with 50Hz and 25fps playback. It's smooth and flawless.

So far, it still looks like I can only choose between 60hz, 70hz, 72hz and 75hz. I actually managed to find a list of supported refresh rates for my TV (buried in the back of the manual I somehow missed it the first time). According to the manual, refresh rates either via VGA or HDMI are exactly the same (the TV has a PC dedicated, HDMI input) although I'm not sure I'll take that as gospel as it doesn't list some resolutions as being supported (1280x720 for example) which work fine.
Using the Nvidia control panel, now I've finally discovered how to customize resolutions properly, I can't customize any different combinations than I can get via Windows Display Properties. At least none which seem to work.

To get 72hz I'm going to have to drop the resolution but I'll have to play around to see if it makes a perceivable difference to the sharpness of video. Given it certainly does to text (at 1080p text is nice and sharp whereas at lower resolutions text has that horrible LCD "blurred" look).
I'm just not sure whether I'll be able to determine the effect of changing resolution on video all that accurately though. By the time I look at video, change the screen resolution and then look at it again.... well unless the difference is so great it leaps out at me the time it takes between resolution changes is way too long for a valid A/B test.

I don't think I'll ever have a standalone player now, the PC is much more flexible and once set up correctly gives excellent performance. I also wont move to Vista or 7 until I am absolutely forced to, XP is performing excellently as a platform for media playback. OK, later operating systems offer supposedly better renderers etc but really, my whole movie experience is quite superb.

I couldn't agree more. I've used the PC exclusively for quite a while but it wasn't until recently when I bought a Bluray player I could compare the two (I was only pausing the video on identical frames and switching TV inputs or doing the same with the video playing) but even so the difference in picture quality was significant enough to reveal the PC produces a better picture. It actually surprised me a little because to be honest I hadn't expected that.
When it comes to upscaling I don't even need to A/B them to see a difference. No matter what noise reduction settings I use (or not) on the TV there's no way I can duplicate the way video is upscaled using the PC. With the PC even a decent standard definition AVI looks quite good (at least at normal viewing distance). Using the Bluray player all the compression artifacts etc are way more pronounced.
Plus if I'm going to be able to eliminate the judder, the PC is my only hope.

What model of TV do you have ? You might want to try connecting via the HDMI connection, maybe the VGA and HDMI handle refresh rates differently, I really don't know. It's a long shot but ....

Samsung PS51D450 Plasma (edit: I posted the wrong model number originally. It's the 450, not the 550).
At least I know it's not the PC causing the "jitter" or "strobe" effect. I've already tried remuxing different sections of video at 25fps and 30fps and playing them on the Bluray player and the result is the same as when using the PC. I'll continue to experiment.....

[hello_hello]

Well that didn't take long.....
I found a resolution which worked happily at 72hz (1360x768) and ignored the oddness of the TV telling me it was displaying at 1024x768 because the aspect ratio of video still looked normal. A quick comparison of a fairly sharp 720p video didn't seem to produce a noticeable drop in clarity over using the native 1920x1080p resolution, and it did seem to fix the judder, only to me the 24p "strobe" effect where the judder used to be isn't all that less annoying so I just went back to 1080p.

Looks like a script to increase the frame rate to 60fps will be my last hope, but I'm going to have to leave experimenting with that until another day.

[madhatter300871]

I'm finding it hard to believe that you are going to have to use a script to generate 60fps video, something doesn't seem quite right here, I'm sure we must have missed something.

I had a look at the manual for your TV, have you tried playing a video using the "Allshare" application ? Is it any better (judder/jitter wise only).

The manual indicates that the correct frequency to be selected when connected to a PC is 60Hz, so I am thinking that when connected via HDMI you should be able to set 50Hz. I haven't read this in the manual, I am making a presumption. If so, you can use reclock to speed up to 25fps. This is what I do (and alot of other from what I have read here) and the results are great. I mean, we have been watching US movies sped up to 25fps for years haven't we. Can you connect via HDMI to check ?

[hello_hello]

No, I've never run the "Allshare" application.

I'm yet to buy a DVI to HDMI adapter so I can connect via HDMI. The manual seems to indicate the refresh rates for the dedicated PC/HDMI input and VGA are exactly the same, however the TV operates at 50hz when playing PAL video via the Bluray player so there's possibly a chance I could use a standard HDMI input with the PC and connect it at 50hz. If that works I probably will use ReClock and just watch everything at 25fps although I still think I'll simply be replacing the judder with 25p "strobe".

I did try connecting the PC at 50hz via VGA but even once I overcame my initial dumbness and worked out how to create custom video profiles properly, setting the refresh rate to 50hz wouldn't work. Every time I saved the custom setup it'd automatically change back to 60hz as I saved it. I'll buy a HDMI adaptor soon.

I actually don't mind using a script to generate 60fps video if I can get it to work and it does a good job of interpolating frames as it'll get rid of the 24p "strobe" effect. Mind you neither the strobe or judder really annoy me all that much, it's just that I don't find one to be particularly more annoying than the other. It's only something I see now and then, although if I can make the video look perfectly smooth then I guess, why not? I wonder if for some reason the 24p strobe effect is more pronounced using a Plasma than it is when using another type of display? There is an LCD in this house which supports 1080p/24 so later today I might remux some juddery sections of video into little test files at 24fps and 25fps to see how they display on that TV. Mind you even if they're perfectly smooth I don't think I could see myself giving up my Plasma for an LCD, but it'll be interesting to see if there's much difference.

[madhatter300871]

I doubt the VGA input will accept 50Hz, I know the HDMI will. Thinking about this more I think you might be experiencing the following :-

Judder, caused by playing 23.976 or 24 fps video at a non-multiple refresh rate, jitter being caused by 23.976/24 material being telecined to play at 60Hz. Does this sound feasible ?

You dont need to buy an adapter, go to cableuniverse.com (or similar) and just buy a DVI to HDMI cable, I have a 7m one, works a treat.

I am quietly confident switching to 50Hz and speeding up to 25fps will give you the best results.

[hello_hello]

Judder, caused by playing 23.976 or 24 fps video at a non-multiple refresh rate, jitter being caused by 23.976/24 material being telecined to play at 60Hz. Does this sound feasible ?

Not really to be honest. I can't tests for jitter at 24fps because I get judder at that frame rate. While testing for jitter I have to remux the video at either 25 or 30fps (depending on the refresh rate). Or use reclock to change the frame rate if I'm testing with the PC.

I am quietly confident switching to 50Hz and speeding up to 25fps will give you the best results.

Hopefully. I'll buy a DVI-HDMI lead this week.

I almost wish I'd bought the model which supports 24p (I posted the model number of the TV which does in my earlier post but I've edited the post to change it to the model number of the TV I actually own). Mind you I don't know if it works all that well or how it works because as far as I know the PS51D550 still refreshes at 60hz, although that could be wrong. I haven't checked. The 550 has a cinema smooth mode (or whatever they call it) which the 450 doesn't have.

[madhatter300871]

When film is telecined for NTSC frame rate there will off course be a frame made of alternating fields every second, could this be what your seeing ?

I'm going to have to hold my hands up and just admit I really don't know the difference between 'judder' and 'jitter'. For me at least, if I play back video at anything other than an even multiple of refresh rate I get what I believe to be termed 'judder', most noticeable on slow horizontal panning scenes. I have never experience 'jitter' and still don't really know what you mean.

Sorry for my ignorance, I know it's not been helpful. I'll be interested to know if you have smooth playback at 25fps when connected via HDMI.

[hello_hello]

No, the jitter or "24p strobe", is just something I can see when the refresh rate is multiple of the frame rate (25fps and 50hz etc in my case). I can see the difference more clearly when slowing the frame rate with ReClock. At 12fps (60hz), I can see judder a lot more frequently. Likewise at 15fps the judder disappears but the strobe effect is a lot more prominent.

My TV does have a film mode (not the same as cinema mode) but it's not available when using the VGA input. If it reduces the strobe effect (which I guess it's designed to do) I'll find out when I switch to HDMI. Thinking about it, later I'll try a few video samples using the Bluray player and enable it to see what the result is like. You never know, it might reduce how noticeable the judder is too. The manual says it's supposed to "smooth" video, but doesn't offer anything more descriptive.

[madhatter300871]

I'll stay tuned.

[madhatter300871]

Hello_Hello : how did you get on, did you try your HDMI connection ? Just curioyus :)

[hello_hello]

Nope. Not yet. I'm being slack I know......

I came very close to testing it out the TV's "film" mode using the Bluray player last night, but got involved in a discussion in another thread regarding some encoding problems and didn't get there. I'm curious to see if it's something which will help reduce the "jitter" effect (as opposed to the judder).

As soon as I've bought the DVI to HDMI cable, which I'm going to make an effort to do next week, I'll post back with the results.

[hello_hello]

Well I did discover one thing today. The Sony Bluray player is too retarded to switch to 50hz when playing 25fps video via USB. Works perfectly playing a disc. I haven't tested the Samsung player yet, but the Samsung TV does seem to switch to 50hz. I'm not 100% sure because unlike when I'm playing an external source the TV doesn't display the refresh rate when I press the info button, but at the moment if I remux a 24fps video at 25fps I'm fairly sure the motion is smoother. It's still jittery, but the judder seems to disappear. I'll have to test it with some different videos, but I guess I could always convert everything to 25fps then get the TV to play it via USB..... sigh.

Film mode also does nothing. I still can't find a definitive explanation of what it does but the description says one mode optimizes for video, the other for text in video (or something like that) and it's only available in 1080i mode anyway so I guess maybe it's a deinterlacing thing?

Looks like it will have to be the PC to the rescue again. I'll definitely pick up a DVI cable in the next few days.

[hello_hello]

I bought a DVI to HDMI lead today.... finally. Now if only the PC would boot while it's connected. There's always something......

[hello_hello]

Well I'm finally connected..... I'm only at the preliminary testing stage with some bugs to iron out, but the upshot of it all it I can now connect the PC at 50hz, use ReClock to play everything at 25fps, and I seem to have "PAL FILM mode". It still jitters or strobes though.... just without judder.

Something I don't quite understand..... when I connected the video card and went into it's properties I had some new refresh rates to play with.
24Hz interlaced, 25Hz interlaced, 30Hz interlaced and of course 50Hz and 60Hz. I'm just not sure I fully understand the interlaced reference yet..... well except for the fact the TV still seems to be refreshing at either 50Hz or 60Hz even when I use 24, 25 and 30. I assume the "interlaced" refresh rates expect interlaced video so the refresh rate is actually twice what the video card is saying it is (it's either 50 or 60Hz).

Which takes me back to the 24hz refresh rate. I'll confess when I saw it I allowed myself to get a little excited, but I'm fairly sure when running in 24hz, interlaced mode, the Screen is really refreshing at 60Hz. I'll have to look at some more video, but I'm fairly sure there's still judder when using the 24Hz refresh rate.

So..... aside from the fact I can't get MPC-HC's refresh rate changing function to work properly yet (it crashes whenever it tries changing to 25hz or 50hz), all is well. I guess I don't need to worry about using the refresh rate changing function anyway as I imagine I'll just leave the card running at 50Hz and use ReClock.

[Ghitulescu]

It appears that the more you read and learn here in this forum, the more you realise what a complicate thing is to set a PC to correctly play an original movie (ripped or not), the same way a standalone does. :) Good luck!

[hello_hello]

Well.... I'm sure you know the saying.... make something even an idiot can use and only an idiot will use it. ;)

But seriously? Over two weeks after the last post in this thread you suddenly need to throw in a "standalone players are better" post? Sigh.....

[Ghitulescu]

It appears that the more you read and learn here in this forum, the more you realise what a complicate thing is to set a PC to correctly play an original movie (ripped or not), the same way a standalone does. :)
Well.... I'm sure you know the saying.... make something even an idiot can use and only an idiot will use it. ;)

That is a good argument, indeed. A person preferring a standalone is an idiot. And people having two players are named how, ehm ehm?
My Sony BDP-S480 will happily read the entire contents of a 2TB NTFS, USB hard drive. It pleasantly surprised me when I first tried it. The Samsung Bluray player in this house will tooLast week I bought a Samsung BD-D5500 player and tested them both more thoroughly....Anyway, I exchanged the Samsung player for a Sony BDP-S480.

The point was actually that you argued for the sake of argument (read contradict), without any viable knowledge, just sophisms. It took you about 1 year to notice that could not synch perfectly to your monitor, that the black levels were false, and God knows what else is wrong, maybe something with HD audio. Meanwhile two standalones entered your house.

[hello_hello]

That is a good argument, indeed. A person preferring a standalone is an idiot. And people having two players are named how, ehm ehm?

Wow.... so while there's an opportunity for rational discussion awaiting you in the Cinavia thread, which it appears you'll ignore as you typically do when it's become obvious you're full of it, you're instead posting in old threads and hunting for out of context quotes in order to pick an argument. You really do need to grow up a bit.

Do you understand the distinction between "use" and "own", "preferring" and "having", or does even that simple concept need to be explained to you?


So, you're not happy with the PC playback of multimedia files, to resort to a standalone you criticised so strongly and factually not too long time ago? Is it something a standalone player might bring that a PC doesn't already have?

Yes, I'm perfectly happy with the PC as a media player. So happy, I've probably used the Bluray player in my room a handful of times, and then it was only while I was testing things. I'm yet to put a disc in it.

The point was actually that you argued for the sake of argument.... blah.... blah.... blah....

No, the point is you posted in a thread two weeks after the conversation ended because I've bruised your fragile man-child ego and you feel the need to try to score a point, but unfortunately you're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish.

I'll leave you to reply with whatever new waffle-fest you manage to come up with. You're not even amusing enough to retain my interest now.

[madhatter300871]

I wonder, do you think there might be a problem with the television ?

Using the DVI-HDMI cable, you now play smoothly at 50Hz, using reclock to speed up the video to 25fps (which is exactly what I do). My projector natively runs at 50Hz and i have to say playback is smooth and fluid, no judder (nor jitter).

Could you try your PC on a different TV (or projector)? You might not be able to, but I still think something is not quite right here.