Grey instead of black side bars in full screen playback with mpc-hc?

[mrice895]

So I've had a Panasonic bt-200 HTiB for about two years now and the first time I threw in a full screen dvd I was surprised to see that the side bars were grey instead of black.

Unfortunately I've been unable to re-find my sources but I remember at the time reading that Panasonic made this decision based on the claim that the grey side bars create a perceptual trick that makes the rest of the scene appear brighter. It was something like the brain tends to ignore grey and having grey side bars draws attention away from them and toward the scene.

While I can say little about the validity of the above claim I have grown quiet accustomed to them and would like to have grey side bars when playing full screen dvd's using mpc-hc on my laptop.

I searched through the options and didn't see one for this but there is a lot in there and I could have missed it. Anyways can someone instruct me on how to go about doing this?

[mark0077]

I know that if you use ffdshow resize functionality, you can actually set the color of the bars / borders in one part of the ffdshow resize gui. You could probably use this to achieve what you want if you're familiar with ffdshow.

[mrice895]

Hmm, well I have never messed with ffdshow configuration and this is all a little over my head but I went into ffdshow video decoder configuration, checked the resize & aspect box and went in to the borders sub-settings. I don't see any options to change the color but I cranked up the brightness just to see what difference that makes and applied the settings, exported the settings, saved the file to k-lite codec pack/ffdshow directory and added the keys and values to the registry, and saw no difference in the borders during playback.

Like I said this is all a little over my head and I'd appreciate step-by-step instructions if it's not too much trouble.

[nand chan]

Hmm, well I have never messed with ffdshow configuration and this is all a little over my head but I went into ffdshow video decoder configuration, checked the resize & aspect box and went in to the borders sub-settings. I don't see any options to change the color but I cranked up the brightness just to see what difference that makes and applied the settings, exported the settings, saved the file to k-lite codec pack/ffdshow directory and added the keys and values to the registry, and saw no difference in the borders during playback.

Like I said this is all a little over my head and I'd appreciate step-by-step instructions if it's not too much trouble.

MPC-HC options -> External filters -> Add Filter -> Choose “ffdshow raw video filter” -> OK

Then highlight that entry, set it to “Prefer” on the right, and double click it to enter the settings. Enable “resize and aspect”, choose “Specify aspect ratio” and enter the AR of your monitor, eg. 16:10 for 1920x1200. In the “Borders” sub-menu, set “Brightness of borders” to whatever you want.

Note, if you use subtitles and don't want them to display inside the border, you also need to go into MPC-HC's subtitles settings, under “Default style” disable “Position subtitles relative to the video frame”, and enter 0 for left/right margins, and 60 for both top and bottom (again, if on a 1920x1200 display - just take your height, subtract 1080, and divide the number by two). This will distort bitmap subtitles however (eg. signs in anime)

[hello_hello]

Unfortunately I've been unable to re-find my sources but I remember at the time reading that Panasonic made this decision based on the claim that the grey side bars create a perceptual trick that makes the rest of the scene appear brighter. It was something like the brain tends to ignore grey and having grey side bars draws attention away from them and toward the scene.

Not that it helps, but I'd be interested to know if that's true.
We've got a Samsung player in the house which does the same thing. I hate it. The Sony player doesn't, the borders are black.
From the manual for your player:
"Screen Saver Function
This is to prevent burn-in on the screen.
When this is set to “On”, the masked-off area on the screen
becomes grey."
"If the “Screen Saver Function” in the Setup menu is set to “Off”, the masked-off area is displayed in black"

It'd be interesting to know why the "perceptual trick" is tied to the screensaver function.

While I can say little about the validity of the above claim I have grown quiet accustomed to them and would like to have grey side bars when playing full screen dvd's using mpc-hc on my laptop.

mark0077's suggestion of using ffdshow to do the decoding should do the trick.
You'd probably have to set the resize function to resize to the same aspect ratio as your laptop (use "specify aspect ratio"), then lower down under "Aspect Ratio" select "keep original aspect ratio".
That should ensure you always have black bars where appropriate and from there you can change their brightness.
In order to get ffdshow to do the decoding, go into MPC-HC's options and under "Internal Filters" disable any transform filters you want ffdshow to decode. If ffdshow still doesn't do the decoding you might have to change ffdshow's merit under "DirectShow Control" and/or make sure the appropriate codec is enabled for decoding in ffdshow.

I just tried it, out of curiosity. I'm very sceptical about the "perceptual trick" theory. When I made the black bars grey I found them quite distracting.
I wonder why manufacturers of TVs don't make their TV frames grey instead of black?

Edit: My post may repeat what others have already said. I wrote it then got distracted for a fair while before submitting it, but thought I'd leave it anyway.

PS. Personally I'd uninstall the K-Lite codec pack, and just download and install the latest version of ffdshow and MPC-HC on their own. It might help eliminate any unnecessary arguing over who's doing the decoding.

[nand chan]

I just tried it, out of curiosity. I'm very sceptical about the "perceptual trick" theory. When I made the black bars grey I found them quite distracting.
I wonder why manufacturers of TVs don't make their TV frames grey instead of black?

Not to mention that I found it especially distracting when the video frame contained black bars of its own - eg. during a small cut-in (like the beginning of bakemonogatari ep01)

What I did find is this (http://www.highdefinitionblog.com/?page_id=6), I quote:

Plain and simple the gray bars are used by the TV manufacturers to reduce the phosphor aging difference between the SD picture and the pillar box areas of the screen. If the pillar box areas of the screen were left black, the phosphors would not age as fast in those areas as the picture area would. Using the gray pillar box areas will cause the phosphors to age roughly the same as the picture area.

It seems illogical to implement or even advertise such a thing to me, because for the manufacturer, devices aging is a good thing.

[hello_hello]

Ahh..... now that makes sense. Why it's tied to the screensaver function the way it is though is something I still don't quite get.

I think it's the same with the Samsung plasma TV I have here... or maybe it's the Samsung Bluray player which does it too, I can't remember because I use the PC for playing video 99% of the time.
How much 4:3 content would the average person watch these days anyway?

[Ghitulescu]

It seems illogical to implement or even advertise such a thing to me, because for the manufacturer, devices aging is a good thing.
Not at all. The affected TVs are those that are the most expensive. Also they were advertised as providing a superior picture quality than their LCD equivalents. Imagine someone paid some 4000€ for a plasma, only to find out that after watching 2-3 old movies, the screen has image remnants. He paid a load of money to have an image less qualitative as a 400€ TV. What a backlash! He was punished for having an expensive device.

The marketing slogan for players says, in other words: "we care for your investment".

[hello_hello]

You'd have to have quite a vivid imagination to imagine the screen would have remnants after only watching 2-3 old movies.
Not that "remnants" was even given as the reason for having grey borders instead of black. It was to ensure a more equal phosphor "aging".

[nand chan]

You'd have to have quite a vivid imagination to imagine the screen would have remnants after only watching 2-3 old movies.
Not that "remnants" was even given as the reason for having grey borders instead of black. It was to ensure a more equal phosphor "aging".

Unequal phosphor aging is what causes remnants, so his usage was correct.

[hello_hello]

Unequal phosphor aging is what causes remnants, so his usage was correct.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/remnant

rem·nant n.
1. Something left over; a remainder.
2. A piece of fabric remaining after the rest has been used or sold.
3. A surviving trace or vestige: a remnant of his past glory.
4. A small surviving group of people. Often used in the plural.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on that one.
My definition of "aging difference" would be an inequality in phosphor brightness.
Remnants to me would be some form of burn-in.

[nevcairiel]

If the inequality in brightness builds a pattern that resembles the previous image you looked at, like the center being aged more then the black bars on the side, isn't that a remnant from watching too much 4:3 content? :)

[hello_hello]

Yes. Using "remnant" as an adjective or adverb, and not as a noun as it was used in it's original context here, it probably would be.
As you said, that'd be a remnant, not a remnants. :)

[mrice895]

Thanks everyone.

I was a little put off by the grey borders at first as well but after getting used to it I really do prefer it. I watch a lot of old dvd tv shows in 4:3 on both my tv (which has had grey side bars for 2 years since i got my blu-ray player) and my laptop (which used to have black bars until you guys helped) and after i got used to them I really prefer the grey.

Like I said I can't find the source again for the perceptual trick thing that I remember reading and being as it was over two years ago I can't even say whether or not it was a reputable source. It could have just been someone on a forum guessing.

Try it again and watch like a half hour of something until you get used to it. You might prefer it as well.

[nand chan]

My definition of "aging difference" would be an inequality in phosphor brightness.
Remnants to me would be some form of burn-in.

Inequality in phosphor brightness is burn-in. That's what causes burn-in. The terms are pretty much identical.

See here for an elaboration: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Screen_burn-in

I quote, “Screen burn-in [...] is a permanent discoloration of areas on an electronic display [...] caused by cumulative non-uniform usage of the pixels.”

Further, “With phosphor-based electronic displays (for example CRT-type computer monitors or plasma displays), non-uniform use of pixels[...] can create a permanent ghost-like image of these objects or otherwise degrade image quality. This is because the phosphor compounds which emit light to produce images lose their luminance with use. Uneven usage results in uneven light output over time, and in severe cases can create a ghost image of previous content.”

[JanWillem32]

It's possible to apply background color to plain EVR with the property pages registered for it (proppage.dll and evrprop.dll).

I've actually made something for EVR CP, Sync and VMR-9 r. a while ago, but I only got as far as making a text box for it back then.
I've added a regular menu for it this time (on the Miscellaneous page). It's a little bit buggy, but it should be able to properly store the selected color and 16 presets. The brightness of the color output can be different from the sample because of the gamma setting, color controls or color management.
If this function works, I can integrate it later on.
Bars embedded in the image itself can be masked by enabling the "letterbox" and "pillarbox" pixel shaders.

[SeeMoreDigital]

So I've had a Panasonic bt-200 HTiB for about two years now and the first time I threw in a full screen dvd I was surprised to see that the side bars were grey instead of black. What make and model of TV was/is your hardware player connected to?

My Panasonic "plasma" TV offers a menu option to generate grey "side bars" instead of black ones to prevent burn in when displaying 4:3 sources...

[hello_hello]

See here for an elaboration: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Screen_burn-in

I quote, “Screen burn-in [...] is a permanent discoloration of areas on an electronic display [...] caused by cumulative non-uniform usage of the pixels.”

Here's the full quote:
Screen burn-in, image burn-in or ghost image, colloquially known as screen burn or screen afterimage, is a permanent discoloration of areas on an electronic display such as a cathode ray tube (CRT) display or computer display monitor or Television set caused by cumulative non-uniform usage of the pixels.

Grey borders are used not because they cause/prevent image burn in, or ghost images, or because they leave/prevent remnants. They're used to help age the entire screen evenly.
The relative dulling of the area containing the picture over a long period of time doesn't necessarily relate to a discoloration and definitely doesn't produce an after image, it just decrease that area in brightness.

"Color screens, by contrast, use three separate phosphors (red, green, and blue) per pixel (called "sub-pixels"), mixed in varying intensities to achieve specific colors, and in typical usage patterns such as "traditional" TV viewing (non-gaming, non-converged TV usage, non-Internet browsing, broadcasts without tickers or flags) are used for operations where colors and on-screen object placement approach uniformity."

A ghost image caused by an uneven use of the three separate pixel phosphors would be my definition of burn-in.

But yeah.... we're probably arguing over semantics because someone typically exaggerated their argument to the point they claimed watching 2 or 3 old movies would cause a noticeable difference in phosphor aging, or leave a large remnant, or however you wish to describe it.

[hello_hello]

My Panasonic "plasma" TV offers a menu option to generate grey "side bars" instead of black ones to prevent burn in when displaying 4:3 sources...

It's not to prevent burn-in a such. You can't burn-in the black bars. It's to ensure the screen ages evenly.

What I don't understand is why the grey border function seems generally to be tied to the TV's screen saver. I'm pretty sure if I disable the screen saver on my TV, the "grey border" function is also disabled.
According to the manual, it's the same for the OP's player. I'm not sure I understand the logic.

[nevcairiel]

It's not to prevent burn-in a such. You can't burn-in the black bars.

But you can burn-in the center square, which would cause a quite obvious square to be visible when going back to 16:9 content.
Burn-in and phosphor aging is the same thing. If they age differently because you watch a certain pattern for a very long time, you get a burn in off that pattern.

[Ghitulescu]

I'm not sure I understand the logic.

I was not surprised at all.

The screen saver function of a TV (or a player) was designed to circumvent the burn-in, phosphorus degradation, you name it, as you want, because it's the same. It started in the good old days of the CRT monitors, which displayed for hours almost an unchanged image (provided one used the same software, like wordprocessing, accounting software, programming GUIs, and yes, they did). Any technique that could "save" the screen from local "burning in" was a screen saver. Be it a blank screen, changing patterns, gray zones etc.

[hello_hello]

But you can burn-in the center square, which would cause a quite obvious square to be visible when going back to 16:9 content.

Yep, but we're not talking about burn-in of the 4:3 "square". As the OP's manual says, the purpose of the grey side bars is to age the screen evenly, not to prevent burn-in of the centre square which is a different thing.

[hello_hello]

I was not surprised at all.

The screen saver function of a TV (or a player) was designed to circumvent the burn-in, phosphorus degradation, you name it, as you want, because it's the same.

Thanks for the usual statement of the obvious. I'm well aware of the purpose of the screen saver function.
Likewise, I'm also not surprised you completely failed to address my actual question.

The purpose of the grey borders is to age the screen evenly, or as has been claimed, to prevent the burn-in of the 4:3 image.
To me it seems counter-intuitive that disabling the screen saver would also disable the grey borders.

[nevcairiel]

Yep, but we're not talking about burn-in of the 4:3 "square". As the OP's manual says, the purpose of the grey side bars is to age the screen evenly, not to prevent burn-in of the centre square which is a different thing.

Actually, its not different. You cannot prevent the burn-in of the center square (without turning off the screen), so instead you display grey bars so the whole screen burns-in evenly.

Burn-in is just a buzzword for uneven phosphor aging.

[nand chan]

Grey borders are used not because they cause/prevent image burn in, or ghost images, or because they leave/prevent remnants. They're used to help age the entire screen evenly.

Burn in, ghost images and remnants are caused by the screen aging unevenly. Therefore, helping to age the screen evenly is identical to preventing burn in, ghost images and remnants.

The relative dulling of the area containing the picture over a long period of time doesn't necessarily relate to a discoloration and definitely doesn't produce an after image, it just decrease that area in brightness.

Incorrect - a decrease in brightness does produce an after image.

"Color screens, by contrast, use three separate phosphors (red, green, and blue) per pixel (called "sub-pixels"), mixed in varying intensities to achieve specific colors, and in typical usage patterns such as "traditional" TV viewing (non-gaming, non-converged TV usage, non-Internet browsing, broadcasts without tickers or flags) are used for operations where colors and on-screen object placement approach uniformity."

This is correct information but does not relate to whether a panel experiences burn-in or not.

A ghost image caused by an uneven use of the three separate pixel phosphors would be my definition of burn-in.

A ghost image caused by the even use of the three separate pixel phosphors would be burn-in as well.

By your definition, a black border would not burn-in either, nor would a white border - as such, Panasonic would have no reason to switch to gray if such things were not an issue.

Yep, but we're not talking about burn-in of the 4:3 "square". As the OP's manual says, the purpose of the grey side bars is to age the screen evenly, not to prevent burn-in of the centre square which is a different thing.

“Aging the screen evenly” is identical to “prevent burn-in of the centre square”

You're basically saying, “the purpose of an Apple is to be an Apple, not to be an Apple, which is a different thing”.

To me it seems counter-intuitive that disabling the screen saver would also disable the grey borders.

Think about it.

Why do you need a screensaver? To prevent burn-in.
Why do you need gray bars? To prevent burn-in.

Do you need either of the two if your screen has no burn-in? No.

As such, you either want both (on a CRT/plasma), or you want neither (on an LCD). I can't think of a single scenario in which you'd want the screen saver, but not the gray bars, or vice versa.

[hello_hello]

You're basically saying, “the purpose of an Apple is to be an Apple, not to be an Apple, which is a different thing”.

No I'm not, I'm just distinguishing between different varieties of apples, whereas you think all apples are the same. ;)
We can argue the semantics for days, but I doubt it'll get us anywhere.

Think about it.

Why do you need a screensaver? To prevent burn-in.
Why do you need gray bars? To prevent burn-in.

Do you need either of the two if your screen has no burn-in? No.

As such, you either want both (on a CRT/plasma), or you want neither (on an LCD). I can't think of a single scenario in which you'd want the screen saver, but not the gray bars, or vice versa.

You need a sceensaver to prevent burn in. By your definition the grey bars also prevent burn in.
My point is if you disable the grey bars and therefore increase the likelihood of burn in, wouldn't also disabling the screensaver increase the likelihood of burn in further? Why not have the two function independently?
I own a plasma. Why shouldn't I be able to disable the grey borders if I don't watch 4:3 content all that much, but still use the screensaver?

Me.... I watch far more 2.35 or 2.40 content than 4:3 content. It often comes with black borders encoded. Fortunately though, playing 1080p content with black bars doesn't automatically disable the screensaver.

[mrice895]

What make and model of TV was/is your hardware player connected to?

My Panasonic "plasma" TV offers a menu option to generate grey "side bars" instead of black ones to prevent burn in when displaying 4:3 sources...

My tv is an 42" LCD panasonic TC-l42u12. I don't see options anywhere in the tv menu for the bars but I got the grey bars in mpc-hc via mark0077's and nand chan's responses.

[SeeMoreDigital]

My tv is an 42" LCD panasonic TC-l42u12. I don't see options anywhere in the tv menu for the bars but I got the grey bars in mpc-hc via mark0077's and nand chan's responses.On my Panasonic TV the side bars can be changed via the Menu button -> Setup -> Side Panel (options: Off/Low Mid/High)