Building new PC, appreciate input, thoughts... [Archive]

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varekai

21st June 2011, 07:52

Hello...

I'm building a new PC and would very much appreciate input and thoughts about these parts.
Daily work like raw Photoshop images and also video encoding. Looking forward to use BD Rebuilder and HD x264.

Chassi: CORSAIR FULLTOWER OBSIDIAN 700D EATX BLACK

PSU: CORSAIR AX 1200W PROFESSIONAL SERIES MODULAR PSU

Motherboard: ASUS P8P67 DELUXE B3 P67 S-1155 ATX

CPU: INTEL CORE I7 2600K 3.40GHZ 8MB S-1155

CPU cooling: NOCTUA NH-D14 S-1155/1156/1366/AM3

RAM: CORSAIR 16GB DDR3 XMS3 INTEL I7 8XX 2000MHZ (4X4GB)

Graphic: ASUS GEFORCE GTX 570 DIRECTCU II 1280MB PCI-E DVI/HDMI

Harddrive OS: INTEL 510 SERIES 2.5" 120GB SSD SATA/600 MLC 34NM RETAIL

Harddrive: 2x WESTERN DIGITAL VELOCIRAPTOR 300GB 3.5" 10K RPM SATA/300 16MB

Chassi fans: 4x NOCTUA NF-S12B-FLX CASE FAN 120MM

Blu-Ray: LG BLURAY BD-R 10X BH10LS30.AUAR10B

OS: MICROSOFT WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE

Will keep these from old PC:
External cabinet harddrives: 4x WESTERN DIGITAL CAVIAR BLACK 1TB 7200RPM SATA/600 64MB
Display 1: DELL 2209WA ULTRASHARP 22" WIDE TFT BLACK
Display 2: APPLE CINEMA DISPLAY 20" TFT LCD ALUMINUM

Groucho2004

21st June 2011, 10:17

All very good choices.

If you're not playing games I suppose you could go with a cheaper graphics card, like a GTX 460.
Also, if you can spare the cash you should go for the 2nd generation Velociraptors (450G or 600G). I have one of those and I'm more than happy with it. They are faster than the first generation and have a SATA2 (600) interface.

varekai

21st June 2011, 10:59

@Groucho2004

Thanks for the tip on the Velociraptors, I missed that in my research!
I'm not a player, maybe Half-Life 2... :p ...so your tip on the GTX 460 will do fine or perhaps the GTX 560.
The GTX 570 takes up 3 slots so I'll get more space/airflow in the chassi which is a good thing.

Regards

mr soft

21st June 2011, 11:16

All very good choices.

If you're not playing games I suppose you could go with a cheaper graphics card, like a GTX 460.

Agreed

Also your PSU is overkill and will result in terrible efficiency.
Any descent 550-600w would handle that comfortably.
Here´s a good example.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=202

boondocks

21st June 2011, 13:45

Yep, overkill on the psu.
I'm running the Antec TP-650 modular psu with my 2600K & the Cooler Master Hyper 212+ cpu cooler. Depending on your budget there is a lot of choices.

varekai

21st June 2011, 13:51

@mr soft
@boondocks

Thanks for your input, appreciate it!
Both Seasonic X-560 and Antec TP-650 seems to be good choices.

I did a rough power supply calculation and added 2 more SATA HDD's and 1 SSD,
did an overclock on CPU to 3.7GHZ and added capacitor aging on PSU set to 30%
Result was 992 W
http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine

Hopefully my new build will last a couple of 3-5-4 years or more and I will most probably add stuff later.
So I think I'm right in chosing the Corsair AX 1200w ATX PSU.
Also the 7 year warranty, the high efficiency and this review attracted me:
http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/power_supply/corsair_ax_1200w_atx_psu_review/1

Screendump from Antec: http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2945/dumpantec.png

Regards

Groucho2004

21st June 2011, 14:15

capacitor aging on PSU set to 30%
Result was 992 W

That sounds suspiciously like a marketing gimmick to sell their more expensive power supplies.

Just my 2 cents.

varekai

21st June 2011, 14:33

@Groucho2004

Could well be a gimmick, but electrical/electronical stuff do not age well so who knows? I really like Corsair's 7 years warranty on PSU and lifetime warranty on RAM... :D

Regards

Ghitulescu

21st June 2011, 14:44

Lifetime on RAM is not unrealistic, and most PSUs survive the first 10 years. My oldest PC is some 15 years old and still works :) I used it for music.

However, putting the best components into a PC won't make it automatically the best PC. One PC must be built around a purpose, what's yours? Photo and video only?

varekai

21st June 2011, 16:07

@Ghitulescu

I'm thinking of an all purpose build, photo editing, video encoding.
Also interested in After Effects and 3D rendering, not any super advanced stuff, lots for me to learn there. Lots of fun! :D

Regards

Ghitulescu

21st June 2011, 17:07

I'm thinking of an all purpose build...

That's the easiest way to spend money with no immediate result, ie to invest in functions one'll never use.

And believe me, a 250€ PC will age the same way a 5000€ one does. Just cheaper. In two SW generations you'll end with HW with no drivers, or with HW with no software. What good one invested in the most performant sound card if windows 9 will say Unknown device, stay then with XP/7, but the new SW will most probably not work on XP/7 (since 98/Me Microsoft changed three times the driver's architecture, I'm not sure about 7, but 64b is also a big step). Oops. Wasted money.

varekai

21st June 2011, 18:20

@Ghitulescu

That's encouraging... so what do you think about the build?
No soundcard necessary, the motherboard has a built-in Realtek ALC889 7.1 that will do fine.
For photo editing, video encoding and rendering and maybe Half-Life 2: Episode Two?
I really wanna take a whack at those nasty headhumpers... :eek:

Regards

This might cheer you up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeKSiCQkPw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

mr soft

21st June 2011, 19:52

Your graphics card choice is the determining factor as this draws the most power.
Your CPU has a Max TDP of 95 W
Your GPU has a Max TDP of:
GTX 460 ; 150W
GTX 560 ; 170W
GTX 570; 244 w
Your board will probably draw about 50w
The peripherals ie: CD drive, ram, HD´s draw so little it´s not funny. Even if you overclocked it hard you would´nt be pulling 500w
This guy has pretty much the same build but is looking to add another 560 in sli to give you an idea.

.http://www.overclock.net/power-supplies/995225-psu-2600k-gtx-560-soc-2.html#post13197429
Just saying you would be throwing your money away that´s all.

Also your board is dual channel on the ram. 2 x 4gig not an option ?

mariush

21st June 2011, 21:21

Motherboard: ASUS P8P67 DELUXE B3 P67 S-1155 ATX
15-20w idle, 40w max -

CPU: INTEL CORE I7 2600K 3.40GHZ 8MB S-1155
20-30w idle, 60-80w max, 100-130w overclocked

CPU cooling: NOCTUA NH-D14 S-1155/1156/1366/AM3
4-6w max -

RAM: CORSAIR 16GB DDR3 XMS3 INTEL I7 8XX 2000MHZ (4X4GB)
about 6w per module -

Graphic: ASUS GEFORCE GTX 570 DIRECTCU II 1280MB PCI-E DVI/HDMI
probably 40-60w idle, 2d, watching movies. about 130w load, MAXimum ever would be 75w from pci-express slot + 75w from each additional connector

Harddrive OS: INTEL 510 SERIES 2.5" 120GB SSD SATA/600 MLC 34NM RETAIL
about 5w average

Harddrive: 2x WESTERN DIGITAL VELOCIRAPTOR 300GB 3.5" 10K RPM SATA/300 16MB
about 10-13w average, about 15w when you boot the system

Chassi fans: 4x NOCTUA NF-S12B-FLX CASE FAN 120MM
3 watts each

Blu-Ray: LG BLURAY BD-R 10X BH10LS30.AUAR10B
1-2w idle, about 15w max

Will keep these from old PC:
External cabinet harddrives: 4x WESTERN DIGITAL CAVIAR BLACK 1TB 7200RPM SATA/600 64MB
about 8-10 watts each, 12-14w at boot

You're looking at a system that at best, will use up to 300 watts. On average it will use about 120-150 watts. A 550w or higher power supply would be enough, and even this would be too big but the price difference at these power ratings are very small. Oh, and higher rated power supplies tend to be less noisy.

Regarding capacitor aging... that's CRAP.

Most quality power supplies use Japanese capacitors that are rated 5-7000 hours @ 105C - that means that the capacitor will stay at its specified rating at 105C for close to a year. This number of hours increases logarithmically as temperature decreases.. for example, the same capacitor is rated 15000 hours at 85C, 40000 hours at 60C, 100000 hours at 45C and so on.
These capacitors are under a fan, so they're almost always cooled by a fan and the temperature almost never goes over 50C, therefore you're looking at capacitors that will start to "age" in about 4-6 years. But this aging doesn't mean the power supply it's gonna die all of the sudden, it just means that instead of providing very stable 12.3v or something around that value, it starts to give a bit "shaky" voltages, like 11.9, 12, 12.05v and so on, which is still within the limits the standards for supplying power allow.

For example, here's a capacitor that would be used to filter the 5v or 12v output in power supplies: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3271-ND Lifetime @ Temp. 5000 Hrs @ 105°C .... 6-8 times that at 40-50°C

A power supply like that Seasonic X-560 will probably live for 20 years like new, the X series from Seasonic are excellent power supplies... better than the Antec power supplies in general (some models made by Delta for Antec are better).

varekai

22nd June 2011, 11:07

Ghitulescu

22nd June 2011, 12:36

No soundcard necessary, the motherboard has a built-in Realtek ALC889 7.1 that will do fine.
For photo editing, video encoding and rendering and maybe Half-Life 2: Episode Two?
I'm not in the games so I can't give you any advice.
For editing any soundcard would do just fine, you're using it as a control, not to play HiFi. 7.1 or 5.1. Photo/video editing doesn't use 3D acceleration (gaming cards), or use just a small subset of their functions. I think you'd be better off with a dedicated Blackmagic card with HDMI (it's much cheaper in the states than in Europe).
You're looking at a system that at best, will use up to 300 watts. On average it will use about 120-150 watts. A 550w or higher power supply would be enough, and even this would be too big but the price difference at these power ratings are very small. Oh, and higher rated power supplies tend to be less noisy.
Indeed, most power consumptions are overrated.
Besides, some sources run less efficient (to say it mildly) on low loads (eg the PC needs 150W but the sources has 990W).
Regarding capacitor aging... that's CRAP.

Most quality power supplies use Japanese capacitors that are rated 5-7000 hours @ 105C - that means that the capacitor will stay at its specified rating at 105C for close to a year. This number of hours increases logarithmically as temperature decreases.. for example, the same capacitor is rated 15000 hours at 85C, 40000 hours at 60C, 100000 hours at 45C and so on.
These capacitors are under a fan, so they're almost always cooled by a fan and the temperature almost never goes over 50C, therefore you're looking at capacitors that will start to "age" in about 4-6 years. But this aging doesn't mean the power supply it's gonna die all of the sudden, it just means that instead of providing very stable 12.3v or something around that value, it starts to give a bit "shaky" voltages, like 11.9, 12, 12.05v and so on, which is still within the limits the standards for supplying power allow.

For example, here's a capacitor that would be used to filter the 5v or 12v output in power supplies: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3271-ND Lifetime @ Temp. 5000 Hrs @ 105°C .... 6-8 times that at 40-50°C

A power supply like that Seasonic X-560 will probably live for 20 years like new, the X series from Seasonic are excellent power supplies... better than the Antec power supplies in general (some models made by Delta for Antec are better).
Indeed, the power supply won't change because of a slow change in capacitance (they are switching anyway these days) but when the capacitors fail altogether.

mariush

22nd June 2011, 15:54

@mariush

So both Thermaltake http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com
and Antec Power Supply Calculators http://www.antec.outervision.com are completely wrong?
Just gimmics? That's confusing and annoying!

Found this PSU calculator:
Phaedrus Quick'n'Dirty PSU calculator
http://www.overclock.net/power-supplies/1045231-phaedrus-quickndirty-psu-calculator.html

I wouldn't say they're gimmics but rather they tend to exaggerate the actual consumptions and they add a very big margin - for them it could be a liability if someone follows the guide and buys an undersized power supply and burns it.

Another reason why most companies recommend higher than 550w power supplies is because a huge part of the power supplies under this rating that are CHEAP are based on old designs, from the time of Socket A or Pentium 4.
You see, the computer receives 3 main voltages from the power supply 3.3v , 5v and 12v. During the age of Pentium 4 and similar AMD processors, motherboard manufacturers tended to use the 5V wires to convert voltage for the processors, the 3.3v for memory and integrated parts on the motherboard (sound, extra controllers) and would use 12v just for hard drives and other parts. So power supplies made at that time were capable of providing a LOT of power through the 5v but relatively little power on the 12v line.
Nowadays, you can see all motherboards have a connector for processor power which receives only 12V, the video cards receive only 12v through various connectors and the memory still uses the 3.3v line. Only the peripherals use the 5V wires, including most of the new SSD drives even if the SATA connector has 3.3v (because they prefer to convert 5v to 3.3v as people may use IDE to SATA power connectors and then they would not have 3.3v in the SATA connector)

So during that time of transition, video card manufacturers would recommend at least 550w or 600w or more because this way they would at least have the guarantee that the 12v wires are a bit beefed up.

Cheap power supplies from companies that are not brand (Antec, Seasonic, Corsair) are still the old half-bridge architecture.. I would say all non-brand power supplies under 35$ rated up to 500-550w can't really do more than 350 watts without dying and can provide little power on the 12v wires.

Higher rated PSU's are less noisy and get less warm. Trying to get a silent machine as possible.
Cool and quiet is good! So good and big quality fans that can push and pull air is to prefer.
The Corsair 1200W has a 140mm fan and the Corsair 800W a 120mm fan.

Will probably settle for this one: CORSAIR AX 850W PROFESSIONAL SERIES MODULAR PSU

Generally, higher rated PSUs are less noisy and less warm because they use newer architectures - the old half-bridge design would have a 75% efficiency at best while the brand name power supplies of today hover at 82-85% with Seasonic and Corsair reaching up to 90% efficiency.
As a tip, you should know most Corsair power supplies (TX and HX) are made by Seasonic and cheaper models are made by yet another decent OEM manufacturer CWT (I think the CX and VX series). The AX series if I don't forget is made by Delta and is great but just slightly better than the HX series - you can get HX series if it's cheaper and you like it.

But my recommendation would go to Seasonic X series, because if you want silent they're great - up to about 15-20% of their load, they don't even spin the fan, they're completely passive. That's about 150 watts. With my Seasonic X-650 and a system using about 170 w at idle, the power supply starts the fan for about 30 seconds every 5 or so minutes and even then it's at very low rotation speed so I can't hear it. The revised versions (X-660, X-760) have even more heatsinks inside so they're even cooler and stay for more time without spinning fans. And it's a 140 mm fan.

Capacitors degrade over time, it's a fact. How much depends on quality, usage, heat, etc.
Cheap garbage low quality capacitors may only last 3-4 years while high quality ones can last a decade or even more.
I'm not so young anymore... this may well be my last build, who knows?

Found this while googling aging of capacitors:
[I]"High quality capacitors: Rubycon, Hitachi, Panasonic, Nippon Chemi-Con, Nichicon
Will probably last more than a decade.

Quality power supplies from Seasonic Corsair Antec Superflower or from brands that use them as OEM (Sentey, beQuiet etc) almost always use just Rubycon, Nippon Chemi-con or Nichicon. The later brands like Sentey or people that buy the design from OEMs may use something like Teapo or SamXon on less important wires.. like the 5v and -12v wires.

Be very careful with Thermaltake power supplies - they have a lot of versions and models and very few are quality ones - they tend to work with OEMS to replace quality parts with parts that do just as much as needed, with lower efficiency, the soldering on the power supplies is not as good (think of it like the Grade B meat with more fat or stuff like that)

Now it's time to start ordering... lots of fun ahead! :D

Regards

Have fun.

Traps

22nd June 2011, 18:16

Save some cash and get 1600Mhz RAM and AX850 instead of AX1200. Also the 2x Velociraptor drives, they're a waste of cash imo, they're expensive and compared to SSD just as slow as a 2TB 7200rpm drive. If you really need a really fast drive just get a bigger SSD if you can afford it.

Ghitulescu

23rd June 2011, 11:45

SSD is the quickest way to lose money. They have a reduced number of writing cycles, which makes them improper for editing, they are incredible expensive per GB and their capacities are also limited (250GB AFAIK).
SSDs employing the current technology are like the 3D tech of today, it will be changed in the near future, any investment being counter-productive.
Yes, they are fast, but a RAID is 5x cheaper and at least equal fast.
Yes, they are silent, but all the fans in the case will cover the regular HDDs too.
Yes, they are shock-proof, but who cares ...

Blue_MiSfit

23rd June 2011, 19:51

Nonsense. SSDs are fantastic. Not for bulk storage, but for OS and a few I/O heavy applications, they are absolutely amazing. My Patriot Inferno 120GB was the best $250 I ever spent on my PC. Seriously. It made a bigger difference than going from a Q6600 to an i7 2600k in subjective "feeling" of performance in general desktop usage. I wish I had waited so I could have spent that money on an OCZ Vertex 3, but that's how things like this always go.

The reduced heat / vibration / power usage is also fantastic. I have an (otherwise) silent PC, but can clearly hear my hard drives over my fans when they're accessing.

Also, a RAID can never be as fast as SSDs when it comes to random access. Plus, RAIDs imply an expensive controller card to be done right, extra thermal / acoustic impact, and increased complexity always means a higher chance of failure.

LoRd_MuldeR

23rd June 2011, 19:55

Nonsense. SSDs are fantastic. Not for bulk storage, but for OS and a few I/O heavy applications, they are absolutely amazing.

The reduced heat / vibration / power usage is also fantastic. Silent PC is awesome.

Agreed. A small but fast SSD for the OS and the most important applications combined with a big/cheap HDD for the data definitely is the way to go at the moment...

QBhd

24th June 2011, 02:13

Agreed. A small but fast SSD for the OS and the most important applications combined with a big/cheap HDD for the data definitely is the way to go at the moment...

That is close to what I have... I have a 40GB Kingston SSD (slightly crippled Intel G1 drive rebadged)... it is old and far from a great SSD, but it smokes and HDD out of the water. I then have a 3 disk RAID0 of WD 500GB Caviar Blacks... this I use as a working drive for downloads, unpacking files, temp directory for encoding, games, etc etc... I then have a 2TB Hitachi for mass storage. I just make sure that I only use the RAID array when encoding so that I don't mistakenly fill my little SSD :)

QB

Przemek_Sperling

24th June 2011, 07:44

I would choose a different Blu-Ray drive. This one you want to choose is mediocre in error correction, esp. for CD and DVD discs. If you use scratched discs be prepared for problems or buying another writer for DVDs and CDs reading only (like some Samsung DVD burners - horrible burners but very good readers) or choose something different e.g. Sony BWU-500S (bad in DL DVD writing, but they are rarely used. The rest is really OK).

varekai

24th June 2011, 08:48

Thanks to all for your great input, learned so much, getting both confused and worried but also convinced I'm
moving in the right direction. This new machine will be good for many years... "touch wood"...

I've been doing some more research and decided to go for an Intel SSD for OS Windows 7 Ultimate.
The performance boost for the OS and some applications are so attractive I just can't resist.
For data I'll use the 2 Velociraptors.

Found this:
http://www.anandtech.com/tag/storage

The Intel SSD 510 Review
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4202/the-intel-ssd-510-review

This Just In: OCZ's Vertex 3 MAX IOPS 120GB, The New Mid-Range King?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4453/this-just-in-oczs-vertex-3-max-iops-120gb-the-new-midrange-king

Western Digital's New VelociRaptor VR200M: 10K RPM at 450GB and 600GB
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3636/western-digitals-new-velociraptor-vr200m-10k-rpm-at-450gb-and-600gb

@ Przemek_Sperling

The LG BLURAY BD-R 10X BH10LS30.AUAR10B will only be used for Blu-Ray's.
I've got 2 excellent PIONEER DVR-115DBK 20x DVD±RW DL IDE Drive DVD-RAM for DVD's.
One is never used, the other used one will stay in my old machine which I intend to keep as it is.
Gonna use an PROMISE PCI IDE controller-card in the new machine for the PIONEER, should work just fine I hope.
Have you got any recommendations for an internal high quality Blu-Ray, good for both reading and burning Blu-Ray's?

Regards

Przemek_Sperling

24th June 2011, 13:20

Pioneer DVR-115 were perfect drives so keep them as long as you can. They are based on NEC chipsets, not Realtek like today drives. I own a Pioneer DVR-215 reflashed to the Japanese version of the drive (DVR-S15J) with RPC1 and without Riplock. If you like experiments appropriate links are here:
http://forum.rpc1.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41228
http://forum.rpc1.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43868

Ghitulescu

25th June 2011, 09:04

Pioneers beyond 117/217 are not Pioneers anymore.

Przemek_Sperling

25th June 2011, 10:18

It's true. Actually DVR-115/215 (and all mutations of the drives) were last "true" Pioneer drives. The current ones are made by Quanta Storage (also known as QSI). Actually there is nothing bad in outsourcing - Plextor, TDK and TEAC do it too. The thing is that Quanta produces really mediocre drives and I cannot imagine any advantage of Pioneer DVR-117/217 or 118/218 drives over, let say, Optiarc AD-7261S (very cheap but really good drive). I tested two Pioneer DVR-S18L drives (two of them because I believed that the first of one was out of order, but unfortunately not...) three months ago, which is positioned as "the best of Pioneer". The drive is based on crippled MediaTek MT1369L chipset - in addition with some function locked, so such tools like MTK Flash or WinFlash do not recognize the drive. Some peculiarities of the drive - it could not recognise any DVDs recorded by itself above 16x because the OPC system is so bad that burned pits and lands are very irregular. The drive cannot read any CDs/DVDs secured ith SafeDisc and LaserLock. Reading correction below average. It is not a drive it is a pure nightmare.

Ghitulescu

25th June 2011, 17:49

But they are 4x cheaper :) and frankly it's hard to find a winner for 22x at writing (I meant it's hard not to find a loser), so why not make it cheap at least :p
The last Pio is 216/116 and 217/117 (it's actually still a 216/116 but with a different FW).