SACD ripping is now possible (part 2)

[mr_wicked]

Guys,

First of all my apologies for my post from half a year ago. At that time I thought I had it all figured out, but I was far far away from reality. Now, half a year later I can tell you that PS3 SACD ripping is finally possible and works with a natively build PS3 application (NO linux required). More information here (http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/) and here (http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/source/browse/trunk/readme).

Lots of reversing was involved to understand how SACD playback works on the PS3. In short it's something like this:
- OS authenticates/resets BluRay player for SACD reading
- SACD player reads TOCs and parses content (now offsets to encrypted data are known)
- BluRay player generates AES key for current inserted disc
- SACD player authenticates the BluRay player with a set of ATAPI calls which does the key exchange (fetches AES key from BD drive)
- on the reading of protected content the BluRay player decrypts the data (PSP, watermarking, etc..) AND encrypts the data using the AES key
- SACD player reads & decrypts the data using the AES key

So SACD itself has not been cracked (and probably never will), but the process to read the data on the PS3 is now known and ripping is actually possible. Although not advisable (due to soldering, etc..).. in theory it's now also possible to connect a PS3 compatible SACD drive to a PC and do the key exchange/decryption on that.

Cheers!

[Ghitulescu]

Does it work also with PS3 other than the first generation?

[derbeDeus]

Does it work also with PS3 other than the first generation?

Probably the only requirement is to have a drive unit that is capable of reading SACD.

[Ghitulescu]

The only drive that could read SACDs was built in the PS3 of the first generation. Only. The optical pickups of the standalone have their logic externalised, and no SACD drive for PC (or Mac) ever existed AFAIK. Thus my question.
PS: I don't own a PS3 (or PS2 or any other game console), nor I own SACD players or discs. I find it weird to use a game console to play BDs or SACDs, pretty much like attaching a plough to my BMW X5. I thought from the beginning that this technology was stillborn, but it's an intelectual challenge, thus my interest.

[derbeDeus]

The only drive that could read SACDs was built in the PS3 of the first generation. Only. The optical pickups of the standalone have their logic externalised, and no SACD drive for PC (or Mac) ever existed AFAIK. Thus my question.
PS: I don't own a PS3 (or PS2 or any other game console), nor I own SACD players or discs. I find it weird to use a game console to play BDs or SACDs, pretty much like attaching a plough to my BMW X5. I thought from the beginning that this technology was stillborn, but it's an intelectual challenge, thus my interest.

First generation (jap/us) of PS3s (with hardware ps2) 60G and 20G NTSC was able to play SACDs.
Also second generation of PS3s (with software ps2), 60G PAL and 80G NTSC also plays SACDs.

Then, they did the cuts: no ps2, no sacd, 2 usb instead of 4...

[The_ByteMaster]

I was looking at a "free" (at the cost of your Twitter friends if you don't own a Korg ) program downloadable from Korg UK called AudioGate, which is able to convert from DSD to FLAC.

Anyone have experience with converting the DSD grabbed through the PS3 to FLAC and what the quality loss is?

[SeeMoreDigital]

I have a couple of old hardware players that support playback of SACD's.

I wonder if it would be technically possible to remove/modify the ROM drives from these hardware players and connect them to a PC?

[Ghitulescu]

I have a couple of old hardware players that support playback of SACD's.

I wonder if it would be technically possible to remove/modify the ROM drives from these hardware players and connect them to a PC?

This question has been asked several times in many (corresponding) fora. It appears that it was possible, yet no public info was leaked since (apparently the efforts went into cracking better the PS3).

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes... The question has indeed been asked several times, several years ago!

It does not hurt to ask if the situation may have changed for us people who don't want to go down the down the PS3 route...

[drmih]

I'm not sure exactly what is required but with the add-in for foobar2000 I can read a SACD in a conventional dvd drive, or if it's an iso obtained via a ps3, mount that. Obviously converting it or playing it back is easy, but as I understand it the native resolution might be lost. However, I'm not sure of the way to produce a backup disc except for writing the iso (to mount on a pc) rather than using the SACD file structure. However, it gives me access to all of my SACDs without having to rely on my aged standalone player. I guess a total solution isn't far off but perhaps there isn't the demand to justify the effort.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm not sure exactly what is required but with the add-in for foobar2000 I can read a SACD in a conventional dvd drive, Actually, this only provides access to the CD layer of a 'hybrid' SACD disc. Which any PC can do already.

What's required is access to the SACD layer (which is below the CD layer of a hybrid disc). This will probably require changing the focal length of the laser to a specific length...

[Ghitulescu]

What's required is access to the SACD layer (which is below the CD layer of a hybrid disc). This will probably require changing the focal length of the laser to a specific length...

Actually not. The SACD is "very" compatible with the DVD, so it is only a mater of making the drive provide access to the data layer, instead of screaming invalid disc and eject it. As the next step, it will be the removal of the confusion (when two different layers are found simultaneously, for hybrid-SACDs) and default to the high density one.

[drmih]

Actually, this only provides access to the CD layer of a 'hybrid' SACD disc. Which any PC can do already.

What's required is access to the SACD layer (which is below the CD layer of a hybrid disc). This will probably require changing the focal length of the laser to a specific length...

Certainly on the drive I was using (or the ps3 extracted iso image), the pc did not see the disc or contents and said it was invalid. It was only using the foobar2000 addin which recognised the disc and allowed access. It may well have been only the cd part, but if that was the case shouldn't the pc also have been able to play that?

[Ghitulescu]

Certainly on the drive I was using (or the ps3 extracted iso image), the pc did not see the disc or contents and said it was invalid. It was only using the foobar2000 addin which recognised the disc and allowed access. It may well have been only the cd part, but if that was the case shouldn't the pc also have been able to play that?

I believe foobar can tell you the properties of the track it's playing. Therefore all the speculations might come to an end.

PS: if it were so easy, just load the SACD in foobar, why the heck people can rip SACDs only with PS3? just wondering :) :)

[pandy]

I believe foobar can tell you the properties of the track it's playing. Therefore all the speculations might come to an end.

PS: if it were so easy, just load the SACD in foobar, why the heck people can rip SACDs only with PS3? just wondering :) :)

Security by obscurity, btw why it is so difficult to hook portable USB logic analyzer and record SACD bitstream?

[Ghitulescu]

Security by obscurity, btw why it is so difficult to hook portable USB logic analyzer and record SACD bitstream?

Well, the first method used was to record analogically with (back then) a professional soundcard (because consumer cards were limited to 2 channels and the software was equally limited to two tracks simultaneously recorded).
This because Sony was aggressive enough to forbid any digital output from their invention.

Later on, they allowed iLink connections (as IEEE1394 allowed a certain level of security, and it was successfully implemented eg in DV camcorders). I don't remember any attempts to hack this connection.

However, before the PS3 came out, some smartguys sold some insanely expensive kits, digital this time, but the basic problem remained, while a new one appeared - the synchronisation between the 3 stereo S/P-DIF streams.

We are approaching PS3 hack. There are reports (that vanished unfortunately) about a successful patching of a DVD-drive to read ISOs from SACDs. No public release though, as PS3 hacking just emerged. Unfortunately, the number of usable PS3 consoles is of several orders smaller than the one having DVD-drives. On top of this, many usable PS3 console have been upgraded "beyond return" and lost for the cause.

The latest exploit, which I have no idea whether it was developed or stayed as before, was the capturing of DsD datagrams sent via HDMI to compatible AVRs. I expect that the HDCP will be in charge, and HDCP strippers are rare and illegal, plus it doesn't solve the whole problem. The same with the converted (in player) DSD to PCM88.2 and sent as PCM datagrams to non-SACD AVRs.

That is in a nutshell the whole story.

[pandy]

That is in a nutshell the whole story.

Never interested in this product (SACD) but i've took first result from google (DSD DAC) - at AD1955 DSD stream is feed directly to pin 4 (later it goes trough DSD filter where it is turned to multibit PCM and later to sigma delta modulator) - recording such signal with logic analyzer should be not so difficult...

[Ghitulescu]

Never interested in this product (SACD) but i've took first result from google (DSD DAC) - at AD1955 DSD stream is feed directly to pin 4 (later it goes trough DSD filter where it is turned to multibit PCM and later to sigma delta modulator) - recording such signal with logic analyzer should be not so difficult...

But the problem remains, what to do "after"? How to convert the stream into usable bits? An ISO may be burned or played as such. A stream of bits have to be authored into a SACD. But before it has to be edited, at lest to trim the ends from garbage. This AFAIK can only be done in PCM and therefore the whole advantage is lost (not entirely, as Sony admitted that they work the music in ProTools in PCM then output it as DSD).

[SeeMoreDigital]

... This AFAIK can only be done in PCM and therefore the whole advantage is lost (not entirely, as Sony admitted that they work the music in ProTools in PCM then output it as DSD).Which probably explains why Sony's SACD's often sound a lot poorer than those from say, Analogue Productions, Audio Fidelity, Blue Note, Linn Records, etc!

There's got to be a way at getting at the data stream!

[foxyshadis]

But the problem remains, what to do "after"? How to convert the stream into usable bits? An ISO may be burned or played as such. A stream of bits have to be authored into a SACD. But before it has to be edited, at lest to trim the ends from garbage. This AFAIK can only be done in PCM and therefore the whole advantage is lost (not entirely, as Sony admitted that they work the music in ProTools in PCM then output it as DSD).

A conversion to 96/32 (or 192/64 if you're paranoid) will leave the audio essentially untouched, exceeding the fidelity of both SACD and DVD-A.

There's been a lot of silly media and audiophile discussion over DSD vs PCM, but as long as you work in much higher precision than your final format, it doesn't matter how much you convert back and forth. It's like RGB vs YUV: Not lossless, but at a high enough bit depth that stops mattering, even in brights and darks. It certainly doesn't affect the nature of the music, which is all in the audio processing!

[Ghitulescu]

I know that, and I believe Sony knows that too, just that if one listens to audiophiles, the serial bits are irreversibly damaged by conversion to PCM. :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

It would be nice to keep this topic... 'on-topic'...

[pandy]

But the problem remains, what to do "after"? How to convert the stream into usable bits? An ISO may be burned or played as such. A stream of bits have to be authored into a SACD. But before it has to be edited, at lest to trim the ends from garbage. This AFAIK can only be done in PCM and therefore the whole advantage is lost (not entirely, as Sony admitted that they work the music in ProTools in PCM then output it as DSD).


But this stream is already usable bits, as a workaround you may do decimation (so apply decimation filter to bitstream - it should produce PCM samples so any processing can be made based on PCM data), use PCM as navigation map over file - cut in points where energy is lowest (so called silence) and that's all.
Disc authoring is completely different topic as probably it will be limited by drive firmware (and perhaps HW).
However bitstream can be preserved and processed (cutting, joining etc) intact (with accuracy to single bit).

Remember that DSD stream is plain Pulse Density Modulation - series (density) of 1's and 0's is proportional to energy (level - in PCM is just hard coded value).

[SeeMoreDigital]

It would appear that Mr Wicked, the developer who made 'SACD ripping available through a PS3' is considering a PC version, by placing an SACD compliant (Sony PS3) disc drive unit within an IDE/USB caddie.

More detailed information can be found here (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/funding-making-sacd-ripping-available-through-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-22124/). Where you can register your interest and post questions.


Cheers all

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi guys,

As of just a few days ago the world of SACD ripping changed... Enjoy SACD Ripping using an Oppo or Pioneer? Yes, it's true! (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/sacd-ripping-using-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true-29251/)


Cheers