Slight stuttering in standalone player

[RobertM]

Hi folks,

Having some slight problems with stuttering in my BD-25 backups. I didn't notice this earlier because my validation process so far has included 3-steps: 1) confirm burn by allowing ImgBurn to verify the resulting disc. 2) Load in standalone BD player and see that it recognizes the disc and starts to play. 3) Step through the chapters (viewing / listening to a few seconds of each) to the end of the disc.

After some initial system setup issues all my backups have passed this test, and I was starting to feel pretty good about the process. But, what with the recent discussion about LTH discs (which I am using), I decided to do a more in-depth evaluation by viewing the entire discs with a critical eye. I noticed a problem.

It looks like I have some slight stutter at various points on each disc. The stutter is brief, affecting only a fraction of a second of video, and it may occur a dozen or so times in a film. Perhaps it is more frequent, but it doesn't show up well if there isn't much panning or motion going on. The stutter happens repeatably at the same points on the disc. I can backup and re-play a stuttering section with the stutter being absolutely identical each time. I can step through the stutter and see it advance a few frames, then backup one, then advance a few more, then backup one, etc., repeating perhaps 4 to 6 times. Interestingly, if I step through backwards I don't see the stutter. I can eject the disc and put it back in after playing other discs and see the same stutter in the same place.

I've tried re-ripping with the latest release of AnyDVD HD (6.8.0.0) and a binary compare with the previous rip shows the files to be identical.

I switched from Verbatim LTH discs to Verbatim standard 6x BD-R discs and the stutter happens at the same spots.

I tried rebuilding with a different quality setting ("Highest" instead of "Good"), and I still get the stutter, but not at the same spots.

Now, I must note that I only see the stutter in my standalone BD player, a brand new Sony BDP-S380. If I play the BD-Rebuilder output files (which were used for the burn) using PowerDVD on my desktop there is no stutter. If I play the burned disc from my BluRay drive in the desktop (LG WS10LS30) there is no stutter. If I play my original discs in the Sony S380 there is no stutter. So it is only the backup discs in the standalone player that cause the trouble.

I've tried plugging the S380 HDMI output into my 1080p desktop monitor instead of my 720p TV. No change.

I tried fiddling with the S380 output settings (force it to 720p instead of "auto"). No change.

Could it be that the S380 just doesn't like BD-R discs? Or just Verbatim discs? Perhaps I should return the Sony (it's only a week old) and try a different brand.

FWIW, my OS is Win 7 Pro 64 bit.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Following are my "Inspect.exe" results and the log for the 2 most recent backups at different quality settings.

-----------------------

- Windows Version: 6.1 [7601]
- AVISYNTH Version: 2.5.7.0, Ok
- HAALI Splitter: Ok
- FFDSHOW: 3326, Ok
- WIN7 preferred AVC CODEC: Ok
- WIN7 preferred VC-1 CODEC: Ok
- WIN7 preferred MPEG2 CODEC: Ok
- FFDSHOW VC-1 set to "wmv9", Ok
- FFDSHOW MPEG2 set to "libavcodec": Ok
- FFDSHOW AVC set to "libavcodec": Ok
- BD Rebuilder v0.37.0.8, Ok
- X264: Ok
- AFTEN: Ok
- FAAC: Ok
- MP4BOX: Ok
- WAVI: Ok
- TSMUXER: Ok

-----------------------
[23:00:53] BD Rebuilder v0.37.08 (beta)
- Source: QUANTUMOFSOLACE
- Input BD size: 27.03 GB
- Approximate total content: [01:46:14.368]
- Target BD size: 22.95 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7601]
- MOVIE-ONLY mode enabled
- Auto Quality: Good (Very Fast), ABR
- Audio Settings: AC3=1 DTS=1 HD=0 Kbs=640
[23:00:56] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [23:00:56] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00050]
- [23:13:21] Reencoding: VID_00050 (1 of 1)
- [23:13:21] Collecting video information
- Source Video: MPEG-4 (AVC), 1920x1080
- Rate/Length: 23.976fps, 152,832 frames
- Bitrate: 28,003 Kbs
- [23:13:21] Reencoding: VID_00050, Pass 1 of 1
- [00:22:56] Video Encode complete
- [00:22:56] Reencoding audio tracks (if req'd)
- [00:28:18] Multiplexing M2TS
[00:40:13]PHASE ONE complete
[00:40:13]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [00:40:13] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[00:55:44] - Encode and Rebuild complete
[00:55:45]JOB: QUANTUMOFSOLACE finished.
-----------------------
[14:21:49] BD Rebuilder v0.37.08 (beta)
- Source: QUANTUMOFSOLACE
- Input BD size: 27.03 GB
- Approximate total content: [01:46:14.368]
- Target BD size: 22.95 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7601]
- MOVIE-ONLY mode enabled
- Quality: Highest (Very Slow), ABR
- Audio Settings: AC3=1 DTS=1 HD=0 Kbs=640
[14:22:03] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [14:22:03] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00050]
- [14:35:49] Reencoding: VID_00050 (1 of 1)
- [14:35:49] Collecting video information
- Source Video: MPEG-4 (AVC), 1920x1080
- Rate/Length: 23.976fps, 152,832 frames
- Bitrate: 28,003 Kbs
- [14:35:49] Reencoding: VID_00050, Pass 1 of 1
- [19:49:58] Video Encode complete
- [19:49:58] Reencoding audio tracks (if req'd)
- [19:55:27] Multiplexing M2TS
[20:05:02]PHASE ONE complete
[20:05:02]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [20:05:02] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[20:17:24] - Encode and Rebuild complete
[20:17:24]JOB: QUANTUMOFSOLACE finished.


Regards,
Bob

[Capsbackup]

Perhaps rather than return your player, take a few of the discs that have this stutter problem to your local retailer and test them on their different model players, including the one you have.
Those results should prove valuable. ;)

[jdobbs]

At those exceptionally high encode bitrates (28,003 Kbs) it may be possible that when combined with audio at the peak bitrate they are exceeding Blu-Ray's maximum or 48Mbs. I'll check my code and see if that is a possibility. I don't think it is -- especially since I set the video maxrate at 35Mbs and you're not keeping HD audio -- but I'll still check.

Is it possible that the disc has a huge number of audio tracks and you're keeping them all?

[RobertM]

Hi guys,

@Caps: Hmm... good suggestion. I'll see if I can find someone willing to let me try out some different machines.

@JDobbs: These are "movie only" backups, retaining only the English audio and English subs. I've tried another iteration, where I selected "good" quality and 2-pass encoding (instead of 1-pass, as in the previous "good" quality backup). Same stutters in the same places on the burned disc. The resulting m2ts file was a slightly different size than my last "good" quality backup, so I know that it wasn't just creating an identical file, but the stutters are in the same places.

Regards,
Bob

[Ghitulescu]

Have you tried a 100% backup (on a BD-RE DL)? That and the tests previously suggested would single out the cause (player, disc, movie or software).

[RobertM]

@Ghitulescu: I bet that a BD-DL would work perfectly, for reasons detailed below.



I'm starting to get a little more clarity about the nature of this stuttering problem, having made a couple of seemingly pertinent observations.

1. The media is not an issue. After wasting a bunch of BD-R discs producing stuttering versions of "Quantum" I had the idea of bypassing the optical stage altogether by substituting an external harddrive. I copied the BD-Rebuilder output folders ("BDMV" and "Certificate") to the external drive then plugged the drive into the front USB port on the Sony BDP-S380. When played that way the video STILL stutters, in EXACTLY the same positions. Then I tried the same thing with input folders (those produced when ripping from my original discs) and they played just fine, with no stutter. So, it would suggest that something is wrong with the m2ts files that are the output of the rebuilding process.

2. I found a couple of backups that didn't exhibit any stutter (watched them through from start to end). In looking for a commonality I found that the size of the m2ts files were smaller than 23GB, and looking at the BD-Rebuilder log I saw that the video files were NOT re-encoded since they were small enough already. Audio WAS re-encoded. As a test, I ran another backup of "Quantum" with a custom size of 35GB so that the video would not be re-encoded. Presto -- the stutters disappear.

So I conclude that something is messing up my video re-encode process. It seems that BD-Reduilder CAN make perfectly fine backups for me -- demux, re-encode audio, remux, author -- so long as the video isn't re-encoded.

I tried doing a small custom size backup (18GB), to drop the data rate -- no improvement.

I tried uninstalling HAALI, FFDSHOW and AVISynth, deleting their folders, uninstall AVS2DVD, uninstall VPL, remove anything else that looked like it might have an impact on installed codecs, reboot, d/l fresh copied using the link on the "bugs" thread, reinstall -- no improvement.

It could still be that the Sony BDP-S380 is particularly sensitive, I suppose, and that another player would be more accepting of theses m2ts files, but it really feels more and more like an encoding issue. I could be wrong, of course.

Now I'm wondering where to go from here...

...and I find myself asking for help again.

I tried looking for any files that might contain information that would be helpful in troubleshooting, and I've included the content of those files below. With any luck, perhaps someone could spot some setting or script that doesn't look right.

As always, thanks for any help.

Regards,
Bob





Cut/Paste of related file contents:


Inspect.exe
=====================================
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7601]
- AVISYNTH Version: 2.5.7.0, Ok
- HAALI Splitter: Ok
- FFDSHOW: 3326, Ok
- WIN7 preferred AVC CODEC: Ok
- WIN7 preferred VC-1 CODEC: Ok
- WIN7 preferred MPEG2 CODEC: Ok
- FFDSHOW VC-1 set to "wmv9", Ok
- FFDSHOW MPEG2 set to "libavcodec": Ok
- FFDSHOW AVC set to "libavcodec": Ok
- BD Rebuilder v0.37.0.8, Ok
- X264: Ok
- AFTEN: Ok
- FAAC: Ok
- MP4BOX: Ok
- WAVI: Ok
- TSMUXER: Ok


BDREBUILDER.INI
=====================================
[Options]
VERSION=0.37.0.8
MODE=1
ENCODE_QUALITY=0
ONEPASS_ENCODING=2
AUTO_QUALITY=0
TARGET_SIZE=23500
AUDIO_TO_KEEP=eng;
SUBS_TO_KEEP=eng;
SD_CONVERT=0
OPEN_GOP=0
RESIZE_1080=0
DEINTERLACE=1
SD_TO_1080=0
CONVERT_WIDE=0
DTS_REENCODE=1
AC3_REENCODE=1
AC3_640=1
AC3_192=0
KEEP_HD_AUDIO=0
AVCHD=0
REMOVE_WORKFILES=0
MOVIE_ONLY_LOOP=1
REMOVE_OUTPUT=0
USE_FILTERS=0
BDMV_CERT_ONLY=0
USE_LAVF=0
IVTC_PULLDOWN=1
ASSUME_DVD_PAL=0
AUDIO_TRACK_LIMIT=1
SUBTITLE_TRACK_LIMIT=1
CUSTOM_TARGET_SIZE=23500
QUICK_EXTRAS=1
ENCODER=0
[Paths]
SOURCE_PATH=D:\DVD\QUANTUMOFSOLACE\
WORKING_PATH=D:\TEMP\

LASTCMD.TXT
====================================
"D:\DVD\BD_Rebuilder\tools\x264.exe" "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS" --preset superfast --bluray-compat --b-pyramid strict --weightp 1 --qpmin=0 --bitrate 28003 --level 4.1 --qpfile "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-maxrate 35000 --threads auto --slices 4 --thread-input --output "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS.264"


BD-REBUILDER.LOG
====================================
-----------------------
[15:50:18] BD Rebuilder v0.37.08 (beta)
- Source: QUANTUMOFSOLACE
- Input BD size: 27.03 GB
- Approximate total content: [01:46:14.368]
- Target BD size: 22.95 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7601]
- MOVIE-ONLY mode enabled
- Quality: Good (Very Fast), ABR
- Audio Settings: AC3=1 DTS=1 HD=0 Kbs=640
[15:50:24] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [15:50:24] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00050]
- [16:03:59] Reencoding: VID_00050 (1 of 1)
- [16:03:59] Collecting video information
- Source Video: MPEG-4 (AVC), 1920x1080
- Rate/Length: 23.976fps, 152,832 frames
- Bitrate: 28,003 Kbs
- [16:03:59] Reencoding: VID_00050, Pass 1 of 1
- [17:11:13] Video Encode complete
- [17:11:13] Reencoding audio tracks (if req'd)
- [17:16:32] Multiplexing M2TS
[17:26:11]PHASE ONE complete
[17:26:11]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [17:26:11] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[17:37:20] - Encode and Rebuild complete
[17:37:20]JOB: QUANTUMOFSOLACE finished.

QUANTUMOFSOLACE.INF
=======================================
[Status]
LABEL=QUANTUMOFSOLACE
VERSION=v0.37.08 (beta)
SOURCE_SIZE=29027733504
SOURCE_VIDEO_SIZE=29027733504
TARGET_SIZE=24641536000
REDUCTION=.848896314850225
RESIZE_1080=0
AUDIO_TO_KEEP=eng;
KEEP_HD_AUDIO=0
SUBS_TO_KEEP=eng;
BACKUP_MODE=1
MOVIEONLY_TYPE=0
USE_LAVF=0
QUICK=0
ENCODE_STEP=0
COMPLETED=1
REBUILD_COMPLETE=1
[00050]
AUDIO=1000
PGS=1000000
M2TS_TARGET=24641536000
RATE=28003
NSTART=27000000
NEND=313846560
NSIZE=23207387136
FLINK=0
MLINK=0

AUD_00050_4352.AVS
=======================================
#Created by BD Rebuilder - v0.37.08 (beta)
LoadPlugin("D:\DVD\BD_Rebuilder\tools\nicaudio.dll")
audio=NicDTSSource("00050.track_4352.dts").Amplify(1.2)
ConvertAudioTo16bit(ResampleAudio(audio, 48000))

VID_00050.AVS
=========================================
#Created by BD Rebuilder - v0.37.08 (beta)
DirectshowSource("D:\DVD\QUANTUMOFSOLACE\BDMV\STREAM\00050.m2ts", fps=23.976, framecount=152832, audio=false)
ConvertToYV12().AssumeFPS(24000,1001)

VID_00050.CHP
=============================================
0 I -1
5997 I -1
10730 I -1
14878 I -1
21982 I -1
25598 I -1
29354 I -1
32880 I -1
38084 I -1
41871 I -1
47878 I -1
51503 I -1
56155 I -1
63756 I -1
68135 I -1
75546 I -1
81255 I -1
88164 I -1
93291 I -1
102253 I -1
104402 I -1
111163 I -1
116660 I -1
121264 I -1
128510 I -1
138474 I -1
140961 I -1
146233 I -1
152826 I -1

AUD_00050.meta
=================================================
MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --demux --vbr --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "D:\DVD\QUANTUMOFSOLACE\BDMV\STREAM\00050.m2ts", fps=23.976, track=4113
A_DTS, "D:\DVD\QUANTUMOFSOLACE\BDMV\STREAM\00050.M2TS", down-to-dts, track=4352, lang=eng, mplsFile=00001
S_HDMV/PGS, "D:\DVD\QUANTUMOFSOLACE\BDMV\STREAM\00050.M2TS",fps=23.976, track=4608,lang=eng, mplsFile=00001

MUX_00050.meta
==================================================
MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --blu-ray --vbr --auto-chapters=5 --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS.264", fps=23.976, insertSEI, contSPS

MUX_MOVIE_ONLY.meta
====================================================
MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --blu-ray --vbr --custom-chapters=00:00:00.000;00:04:10.124;00:07:27.530;00:10:20.536;00:15:16.832;00:17:47.649;00:20:24.306;00:22:51.369;00:26:28.420;00:29:06.369;00:33:16.911;00:35:48.104;00:39:02.131;00:44:19.156;00:47:21.797;00:52:30.897;00:56:29.010;01:01:17.173;01:04:51.012;01:11:04.802;01:12:34.433;01:17:16.423;01:21:05.694;01:24:17.719;01:29:19.937;01:36:15.519;01:37:59.248;01:41:39.134;01:46:14.117 --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\00050.M2TS", fps=23.976, insertSEI, contSPS, track=4113
A_AC3, "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\AUD_00050_4352.AC3", lang=eng
S_HDMV/PGS, "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\00050.track_4608.SUP",fps=23.976,lang=eng

[jdobbs]

C'mon. There are many, many, many, many people who have done thousands of BD-25 backups successfully. Are you saying that just because you're having an issue in your particular instance that BD-RB can't reencode BD-25s? I'm not sure what might be peculiar about your setup -- but apparently something is. There is also the possibility of bitrate spikes with that high bitrate that I mentioned earlier. If it were happening to others I might think X264 or TSMUXER were at fault -- but I'm just not getting any "stuttering" reports from others.

I've added additional code into the next version to ensure the maximum bitrate is never exceeded. But with a movie-only backup like yours with only a couple of audio tracks that aren't HD -- it isn't very likely to be the issue. I have to think the player is suspect (although getting the stutter at the exact same point sure seems to make you scratch your head over that one too).

[laserfan]

LASTCMD.TXT
====================================
"D:\DVD\BD_Rebuilder\tools\x264.exe" "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS" --preset superfast --bluray-compat --b-pyramid strict --weightp 1 --qpmin=0 --bitrate 28003 --level 4.1 --qpfile "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-maxrate 35000 --threads auto --slices 4 --thread-input --output "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS.264"
Hmmm maxrate should be 40000, not 35000?

[jdobbs]

Hmmm maxrate should be 40000, not 35000? That's there to give a safety cushion. You never want to push the line just in case the encoder goes a little over at peaks. It also gives room in case there is secondary video (the 40000 it the maximum total for all video streams). In most cases stuttering would only happen if you went higher than the maximum, not lower. There is also a 48000 maximum for the combination of all video, audio, and PGS streams. If he were keeping HD audio, that would be where I'd be concerned -- but he's not.

In the next release I've added code to add all of the video/audio/pgs streams together and make sure it is never possible for them all to get too large. But, frankly, the chance of that happening is pretty small when working with a commercial source. You're encoding from a baseline that already meets that requirement.

[Ghitulescu]

That's there to give a safety cushion. You never want to push the line just in case the encoder goes a little over at peaks. It also gives room in case there is a secondary video (the 40,000 it the maximum total for all streams). Stuttering would only happen if you went higher than the maximum, not lower. There is also a 48000 maximum for the combination of all video, audio, and PGS streams.

How about buffer underrun?

[jdobbs]

How about buffer underrun? It's possible I guess... but with qpmin at "0" wouldn't that be unlikely? I'd have to defer to the X264 experts on that one. You don't see bitrates that high very often... 25GB is a lot of room for 1:45 of movie.

@RobertM

Try using the custom target size and lowering your size to 10GB or so, burn it to a BD-RE, and see if the stuttering goes away. That way we might see if the high bitrate is giving us the problem.

[RobertM]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your replies.

Now, just off the top, don't get me wrong -- I'm certainly NOT saying the BR-Rebuilder is incapable of making encoded BD-25 backups. If this problem were happening to lots of other people then they would surely be mentioning it. While I say that the stutter is "slight", that means that it happens infrequently and for a short period of time. It is often barely perceptible, but sometimes it stands out like a sore thumb, and is plainly, obviously wrong.

I'm tending to disbelieve that the player is responsible, but I'm keeping an open mind. I don't really see why it would balk at handling the re-encoded file and not the original, larger file. But the player still has to process these m2ts files before sending them to the HDMI output, so the player is still in contention as a possible problem. I do plan to try out a couple of other machines, so that I can get closer to 100% sure. The player has been updated to the very latest firmware.

If it is not the player, and not a common problem in the BD-Rebuilder community, then it would have to be something in how the re-encode process is happening on my machine. That's why I included all of those configuration and script files, hoping that some incorrect setting would stand out. I'm trying to do a fairly plain vanilla backup, and so I would expect BD-Rebuilder to just create a standard set of script files and fire them off at the various helper apps. If these scripts and settings look fine then the problem would have to be during the actual encoding operation or the remuxing.

So...

Let me be really clear again: I'm not accusing BD-Rebuilder itself of being at fault, or of other users being insufficiently observant, and I'm tremendously grateful for any help that anyone can provide.

I just was not sure which way to go. Here's my plan:

1. Run another test with custom size 10GB. I don't have my BD-RE discs yet (can't find any locally) but the ones I ordered should arrive today.

2. Test out a couple of other non-Sony players.

3. Regardless of the results of steps 1 and 2, get another HD and make an alternate boot drive on my system. Install a fresh OS on that drive (Win7 or XP) and retry the re-encode.


Thanks again for the help.
Bob

[jdobbs]

I don't think it is a Sony problem... I have two Sony players and neither show it. What I meant is that there may be something wrong with your player...

It's also possible that there is a buffering issue -- and your player is less forgiving than others.

One other thing you might try is playing back the AVS files and watching closely at the points you see stuttering. There's always the chance that it is a CODEC issue of some type and the stutter is there before the encode.

[shon3i]

What is your burning speed? If you burn under 3x you have problem, that not meet TS reading rate at CASE 1 of BD specification, which allow 48mbps, while CASE 2 allow up to 28mbps for all streams.

@jdobbs, about primary/secondary video bitrate:

In case of 525/60 video format and 625/50 video format:
.. The total video bit-rate value of Primary video and Secondary video streams shall be less
than or equal to 40*106 [bits/sec].
.. Maximum video bit-rate for Secondary video streams shall be less than or equal to 8*106
[bits/sec].
• In case of 1920x1080 video format and 1280x720 video format:
.. The total video bit-rate value of Primary video and Secondary video streams shall be less
than or equal to 80*106 [bits/second].
.. Maximum video bit-rate for Secondary video streams shall be less than or equal to is 40*106
[bits/second].

And BDRebulder x264 CMD look now messy. You maybe know --bluray-compat automaticly now reduce settings as should for example if your cmd is

"D:\DVD\BD_Rebuilder\tools\x264.exe" "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS" --preset superfast --bluray-compat --b-pyramid strict --weightp 1 --qpmin=0 --bitrate 28003 --level 4.1 --qpfile "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.CHP" --sar 1:1 --aud --nal-hrd vbr --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-maxrate 35000 --threads auto --slices 4 --thread-input --output "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS.264"

Can be safetly cuted as

"D:\DVD\BD_Rebuilder\tools\x264.exe" "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS" --preset superfast --bluray-compat --bitrate 28003 --level 4.1 --qpfile "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.CHP" --sar 1:1 --pic-struct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --keyint 24 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-maxrate 35000 --threads auto --slices 4 --thread-input --output "D:\TEMP\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS.264"

[RobertM]

I've got news on the player compatibility front. I tried my disc in several players, and here are the results:

Stutters happen at the predicted spots on these devices:
Sony BDP-S380 (mine)
Toshiba BDX1200

Stutters not in evidence:
Sony BDP-S370
Samsung BD-D5300
Panasonic DMP-BD75

So it would now seem pretty clear that something is wrong with the file, and that not all players (even from the same manufacturer) are sensitive to the problem.

I don't have any news on the 10GB build yet. I set the custom size before I started the build, but forgot to SELECT the custom build; it was still set to BD-25. Oops!

I'm going to proceed (once the 10GB build is finished) with the clean OS install on a new drive. I'll do a Win7 install first, then, if unsuccessful, a WinXP install.

@shon3i: My most recent burns have been set to 4x, but I'm not really concerned with the burning at present because I can produce the exact problem using an external HD.

[Ghitulescu]

There is defintively something wrong with the encoding: in my experience Toshiba were the closest players to the standards.

[shon3i]

There is defintively something wrong with the encoding: in my experience Toshiba were the closest players to the standards.
I think problem on tsmuxer side, since x264 in cooperation with commercial muxers have not verifying problems, while tsmuxer can't always pass verify process.

Maybe we can eliminate problem using other muxer, such as EasyBD Lite, it's freeware aslo.

[jdobbs]

@shon3i

The total video bit-rate value of Primary video and Secondary video streams shall be less
than or equal to 80*10^6 [bits/second]

I saw that too (80Mbs) in the standard -- but I don't understand how it can do that when the BD drive has a maximum data transfer rate of 53.948 Mbps and the maximum user rate is 48Mbs? I also see this is the standardData rate from the Drive(RUD): 54*10^6 bits/second So I guess as long as you don't put the video into an M2TS stream or put it on a BD you can go as high as 80Mbs -- which of course makes no sense to me.

I looked at the authoritative BD site and it says 48Mbs as well. Also, here's a quote from the Wiki entry:BD Video movies have a maximum data transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 48 Mbit/s (for both audio and video data), and a maximum video bit rate of 40 Mbit/s So, when confronted with conflicting date -- I go for the safer. I guess it would be easy enough to make a 70Mbs video and test it, but I'm pretty confident it will fail.

[RobertM]

Well.... no joy :(

I first completed the 10GB custom size build: Still stutters.

Then I installed my new drive and loaded up a fresh copy of Win7 Pro x64. I didn't load ANYTHING extraneous; only BD-Rebuilder, HAALLI, FFDSHOW and AVISynth, all freshly d/l from the "bugs" thread links. I didn't even load Firefox or the drivers for my video card. Result: Still stutters.

Tomorrow I'll reformat the new drive and install XP, instead of Win7, to see if that makes any difference. I'm feeling less optimistic at this point, but we'll see.

The only bright spot is that now I have 2 big drives in my system, and putting the "working" folder on one drive and the source files on another has dramatically reduced the time for the extraction, multiplexing and rebuilding stages -- like by a factor of 2! Re-encoding is only marginally faster, as expected.

Regards,
Bob

[shon3i]

I saw that too (80Mbs) in the standard -- but I don't understand how it can do that when the BD drive has a maximum data transfer rate of 53.948 Mbps and the maximum user rate is 48Mbs? I also see this is the standardBut nowhere in standard say that 54mbs data rate is max, it's minimum if you want use 48mbs for primary AV streams. Please leave wiki pages, they are full of guessing parameters. 80mbs is in case that both primary/secondary videos are HD ie 720/1080. That why secondary video for 720/1080 have same rules as primary video.

However i still think that is Tsmuxer issue, since i few times i checked stream with verifier i saw that TS buffer exceed BD limits.

[jdobbs]

But nowhere in standard say that 54mbs data rate is max, it's minimum if you want use 48mbs for primary AV streams. Please leave wiki pages, they are full of guessing parameters. 80mbs is in case that both primary/secondary videos are HD ie 720/1080. That why secondary video for 720/1080 have same rules as primary video.

However i still think that is Tsmuxer issue, since i few times i checked stream with verifier i saw that TS buffer exceed BD limits.

So you're saying I should lift the maximum bitrate because there may be players that might play it. The minimum is the value you have to work by, just like every other minimum in the standard. The standard also says:Maximum value of TS_recording_rate of the main TS (RTS1) : 48*10^6 bits/second
It's not just the Wiki page but pretty much every reference I can find on the net (including the "Authoritative Blu-Ray Disc FAQ" -- which I have never found to be wrong about anything). I don't feel like arguing and I know you're very knowledgable -- but I'm leaving the max at 48Mbs (just like every other other software package does) -- so lets just leave it at that.

I agree that the issue is probably TSMUXER -- and very probably because of the high bitrate.

[shon3i]

So you're saying I should lift the maximum bitrate because there may be players that might play it.No, i am say that in case both primary and secondary video are 720/1080, The total video bit-rate value of Primary video and Secondary video streams shall be less than or equal to 80*106 [bits/second], and that is completely fine. But i understand you, and i totally agree with your bitrate limits, and maybe you can go little under like 46Mbs.

[RobertM]

Well,.... nothing seems to help.

I just completed a clean install of XP, set up BD-Rebuilder as before, and ran the standard BD-25 backup. Still stutters.

I've now run this process many, many times, with various settings and on (essentially) 3 different systems, including both Win7 and XP, and the results are consistent and repeatable as far as the stutters go. I'm left with a fairly strong conclusion that the re-encoding or muxing stages are causing this problem. I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that it is quite possible that other people are doing backups which contain the same problem, and they won't find out about it until they damage an original disc and have to pull out the backup; depending on their playback system they may be in for a nasty surprise.

If this is really only MY problem then I can suck it up and deal with the fact that I "just can't get there from here". After all, I can always purchase a different player and pretend that the problem doesn't exist. But I feel that some concerted effort could be made to see if the problem is, in fact, more widespread than just on my machine. Does anyone else on this forum have a BDP-S380 (or perhaps 580 or 780) on which they can run some tests? I've found that EVERY disc I've made with re-encoded video has some degree of stuttering, so someone should be able to say "you're crazy,.. I ran the same backup, checked the same points in the movie, and it doesn't happen on my BDP-380"!

I intend to continue to try and troubleshoot this. But I'm not terribly experienced with video encoding, so I'm kind of flailing around a little bit. Any hints at things I should try would be appreciated.

Regards,
Bob

[Big Barn]

Did you check for any updates for your Sony BDP-S380

Dated 04/19/2011 Firmware M06.R.0259

[RobertM]

Yes, I loaded the very latest firmware just after getting the player.

I think I'll spend some time tonight with BDInfo, getting some before-encode and after-encode information for my "Quantum" build.

<edit>
Yes, I loaded firmware version 259.
</edit>

[Capsbackup]

Perhaps try a Full backup of this same movie, and burn to BD-RE and test it on your player. There should be considerably more content with a full backup, thus eliminating the exceeded bitrate concern, if that is the case.
My R1 Blu-ray has about 3.5 hours of content. I did a full backup to BD-R and watched the entire movie on my Sony S360, and it was perfect - with no stutters at all.
Are you sure your Blu-ray burner isn't the cause? :confused:

Software players cannot be used as reliable sources.

[RobertM]

Hi Caps,

I would do that, if you really think that that would be instructive, but I already know that the INPUT files to the burning process contain the problem. I can copy the BD-Rebuilder output folders onto my external HDD, and plug that into the front USB port on the BD player, and the problem is evident. So burning a file with a known problem won't achieve much, in my opinion. But if you really think it would achieve something then I can do so (my BD-RE DL discs have arrived ;) ).

I agree about the s/w players, since they do not exhibit the same problem as my standalone player.

[RobertM]

I have done some work with BDInfo and I've attached the results of 3 particular file scans:

1. The "Quantum_Original" files are from the original ripped m2ts file.

2. The "Quantum_1" files are from the first rebuild, which has the stutters. The build settings are as per the original posting in this thread.

3. The "Quantum_6_GOOD" report is from the first time I was able to make a successful, non-stuttering rebuild. The only difference from the "Quantum_1" build was that I set a "Custom Target size" of 35GB, thereby avoiding the necessity for re-encoding the video. I haven't bothered to include the video rate chart for this because it is identical to the "Quantum_Original" chart, since there was no re-encoding of the video.


Of note:

I was expecting to see charts that looked very similar, but with a scaling difference. But the original and re-encoded charts look quite different. The re-encoded chart is evenly distributed about an average of around 28Mbps, while the original chart has a similar average but a much wider distribution.

Most interestingly, the original shows peak values around 45Mbps while the re-encoded reaches a maximum of about 55Mbps. It seems like, if there is a max bitrate setting of 48Mbps, the re-encoding has somehow exceeded that limit -- or are we not talking about the same things here.

[Video Dude]

I think problem on tsmuxer side, since x264 in cooperation with commercial muxers have not verifying problems, while tsmuxer can't always pass verify process.

Maybe we can eliminate problem using other muxer, such as EasyBD Lite, it's freeware aslo.

RobertM could do a quick test and use EasyBD Lite to mux to determine if tsmuxer is causing the stutter. Either use the BD-RB workfiles or demux a BD-RB created Blu-ray.

[jdobbs]

RobertM could do a quick test and use EasyBD Lite to mux to determine if tsmuxer is causing the stutter. Either use the BD-RB workfiles or demux a BD-RB created Blu-ray.

You know, now that I think about it -- it isn't likely to be TSMUXER. The files that aren't reencoded are still remuxed with TSMUXER, and they are working fine.

@RobertM

A momentary spike that exceeds the max isn't a big deal and should be acceptable as long as it is short. Buffering should allow it for about a half second or so. I can't tell from the charts how long the high bitrate is held -- but it doesn't look very long.

[RobertM]

The files that aren't reencoded are still remuxed with TSMUXER, and they are working fine.

I was thinking the same thing.

The other thing I noticed was that stutters that I typically look for don't seem to correspond exactly with any particular peak on the charts. There are LOTS of short stutters, but some are particularly noticeable because they happen while some smooth motion is taking place, so they become VERY evident to the eye. The 3 particular stutters that I look for are at 0:35:16, 1:28:49 and 1:29:09. The first 2 show up when I do a "Good quality" rebuild, the last 2 when I do a "High quality" rebuild.

I'd feel more confident in my assertions if ANYONE else was observing the same thing. So I'm doing yet another trial, but on a completely different machine this time; my older Pentium 4 XP machine. As a side note, this makes me glad that I built my new machine at X-Mas. The new machine does a rebuild in about 2 hrs, the old one has been working for 10 hrs already, and reports more than 7 hrs to go!

[shon3i]

You know, now that I think about it -- it isn't likely to be TSMUXER. The files that aren't reencoded are still remuxed with TSMUXER, and they are working fine.

@RobertM

A momentary spike that exceeds the max isn't a big deal and should be acceptable as long as it is short. Buffering should allow it for about a half second or so. I can't tell from the charts how long the high bitrate is held -- but it doesn't look very long.
You can't be sure for tsmuxer if we not see buffer analysis of es and ts buffering model. For es, his need Elecard Buffer analyser, and for ts, some BD verifier, so mission impossible. Reason why untoched no stutters even via tsmuxer is not good reason to not still suspect on tsmuxer. x264 is famous of creating short high buffer spikes which can confuse muxing process, and tsmuxer weakness is easy to create overflow in ts buffer model.

First things first. Remux problematic video with other muxer. Ideal now is Easy BD Lite since "passes" verifications, and it's more stable.

[laserfan]

First things first. Remux problematic video with other muxer. Ideal now is Easy BD Lite since "passes" verifications, and it's more stable.Hmmm I've found nothing whatsoever to be "stable" about EasyBD Lite 1.09. Works to mux a program on first installation, then crashes on subsequent attempts (have to un- and re-install). Saving of a project doesn't work (can't use the saved project again). I've tried it 3 or 4 times and it seems like alpha-quality to me.

[shon3i]

By stable i mean muxed output, not program itself.

[laserfan]

No argument there. When I have been able to get it to work, the output was fine.

Whaddya think about this "buffering" discussion shon3i--I still wonder about the "35000 vs 40000" vbv-maxrate setting. It does seem like the only problems I have ever had with x264 is when I've deviated from "standard" settings.

Is there any way jdobbs to tell BD-RB to use --vbv-maxrate 40000 in 37.08? IIRC TWEAK of this setting in the INI will get over-ridden.

[RobertM]

I've run a BDInfo analysis on the unmuxed m2ts file in the working directory. It contains only video, as expected, but the numbers for the video portion are not the same as when I ran the analysis on the muxed BD output folders. Does TSMuxer normally alter the video stream when muxing, or does the DBInfo scanning process yield slight variations when scanning a video stream?

I've attached the working file scan.

Regardless, I'll give EasyBD Lite a go and see what happens.

<edit>
Oh, and an important detail I forgot to mention.... When I play this m2ts file from the working folder on my player it plays without audio or chapters (no surprise), but it also stutters at the expected spots. Further indication that TSMuxer is probably not the problem, but I'm going to try an EasyBD lite mux anyhow, just to be thorough.
</edit>

[jdobbs]

No argument there. When I have been able to get it to work, the output was fine.

Whaddya think about this "buffering" discussion shon3i--I still wonder about the "35000 vs 40000" vbv-maxrate setting. It does seem like the only problems I have ever had with x264 is when I've deviated from "standard" settings.

Is there any way jdobbs to tell BD-RB to use --vbv-maxrate 40000 in 37.08? IIRC TWEAK of this setting in the INI will get over-ridden. That's a non-issue and it's also not "non-standard". Compared to what? If you're already spiking too high with bitrate -- setting maxbitrate higher will just make it worse.

[jdobbs]

@RobertMOne other thing you might try is playing back the AVS files and watching closely at the points you see stuttering. There's always the chance that it is a CODEC issue of some type and the stutter is there before the encode. Did you ever try this?

[RobertM]

Did you ever try this?

No. That got lost in all the other stuff that I was trying. So I just tried it...

1. Right-click on VID_00050.AVS in my workfiles folder
2. Select "open with...", "choose default program".
3. Select "Windows media player"
4. Get an error message "Windows media player has stopped working"
5. Tried the "Check online for a solution" button, but it just waits a few seconds, saying it is searching for a solution, and then closes with no other message.

Hmm...

<edit>
VLC player won't play it either. Is this suggestive of a problem in my system, or should I try to play it some other way.
</edit>

[RobertM]

My EasyBD mux job just completed. Still stutters in the same spots.

It was great that I could put chapter markers just 5sec preceding each suspect position on the disc. Not nice to see the stutters, but nice that I didn't have to search for them.

[shon3i]

A small sample of encoded part that stutter (around) will be nice (uploaded to mediafire), i want to check it in analysers. You can also try to cut original around that position and encode to see is problem still exist. That will make things easier to replicate.

@laserfan, that should be called maxed settings not standard, and they are not recommended, and always need to leave some room for errors. If you look at comercial discs you probably never seen that high settings. I agree with jdobbs.

[laserfan]

2laserfan, that should be called maxed settings not standard, and they are not recommended, and always need to leave some room for errors. If you look at comercial discs you probably never seen that high settings. I agree with jdobbs.
Thanks shon3i for your reply! :)

[jdobbs]

No. That got lost in all the other stuff that I was trying. So I just tried it...

1. Right-click on VID_00050.AVS in my workfiles folder
2. Select "open with...", "choose default program".
3. Select "Windows media player"
4. Get an error message "Windows media player has stopped working"
5. Tried the "Check online for a solution" button, but it just waits a few seconds, saying it is searching for a solution, and then closes with no other message.

Hmm...

<edit>
VLC player won't play it either. Is this suggestive of a problem in my system, or should I try to play it some other way.
</edit> That is a problem... it means that somehow AVISYNTH isn't registered for that file type. That usually means AVISYNTH isn't installed (or isn't installed properly).

[Edit] Well, maybe not. Windows Media Player "used" to work with these -- but I just tried it and it failed on my system too. I'd recommend you download and install "Media Player Classic" and play it back with that.

[Capsbackup]

VLC player won't play it either. Is this suggestive of a problem in my system, or should I try to play it some other way.

Media Player Classic should play the file. It plays all video formats for BD, especially if you are playing the .avs. :cool:

[RobertM]

I guess I was confusing "Media Player Classic" with "Windows Media Player". Once that was pointed out to me I remembered seeing it in the "Tools" folder of the BD-Rebuilder d/l.

MPC plays the m2ts files all right, with no displayed stutter, even on those files that DO stutter on my standalone player. I can step though, frame by frame, and the progression looks smooth.

But it will NOT play the avs file in the "Workfile" folder. I tried to play "VID_00050.AVS" in MPC and it throws the following error message:


Media Player Classic could not render some of the pins in the graph, you may not have the needed codecs or filters installed on the system.


It refers to the following "pin"


H:\Temp\WORKFILES\VID_00050.AVS::Avisynth video #1

Media Type 0:
--------------------------
Video: YV12 1920x1080 23.98fps

AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Video {73646976-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}
subtype: MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12 {32315659-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}
formattype: FORMAT_VideoInfo {05589F80-C356-11CE-BF01-00AA0055595A}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 3110400
cbFormat: 88

VIDEOINFOHEADER:
rcSource: (0,0)-(0,0)
rcTarget: (0,0)-(0,0)
dwBitRate: 0
dwBitErrorRate: 0
AvgTimePerFrame: 417083

BITMAPINFOHEADER:
biSize: 40
biWidth: 1920
biHeight: 1080
biPlanes: 1
biBitCount: 12
biCompression: YV12
biSizeImage: 3110400
biXPelsPerMeter: 0
biYPelsPerMeter: 0
biClrUsed: 0
biClrImportant: 0

pbFormat:
0000: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0010: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0020: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3b 5d 06 00 00 00 00 00 ........;]......
0030: 28 00 00 00 80 07 00 00 38 04 00 00 01 00 0c 00 (...€...8.......
0040: 59 56 31 32 00 76 2f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 YV12.v/.........
0050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........




<edit>
When I installed AVISynth I just let all the default settings stand. Should I have made some different selections? I recall that there were bunch of options.
</edit>

[RobertM]

@shon3i

A small sample of encoded part that stutter (around) will be nice (uploaded to mediafire)

I'd be more than pleased to provide this to you. Err.... what tool do you suggest to clip a section out of the final m2ts?

[jdobbs]

@RobertM

I forgot, you need to tell FFDSHOW to playback raw video in order to play that AVS. From the windows/start button select "Programs" and then "FFDSHOW" -- select "Video Decoder Configuration" and under "Raw Video" choose "All Supported". That way FFDSHOW will decode the YV12 output of the AVS file.

You need to play back the AVS, not the M2TS.

[RobertM]

Thanks, jdobbs, that fixed the MPC playback problem.

So now I can play back the AVS file in MPC, and no stuttering is evident. I then tried again, stepping through the video, frame by frame where the stutters should happen, and the progression of frames seemed smooth.

[shon3i]

Use tsmuxer. Also after cutting try playing that part to see is stutter still there.

[RobertM]

@shon3i

I have cut out 2 parts from the re-encoded m2ts file. They are each 10 sec long, and the stutters happen at about the middle of each clip.

In 00001.m2ts, I can see the cars shudder back and forth as they pass in front of the airport building.

In 00002.m2ts, when the woman jogs past, the railings shudder back and forth.

I verified that these small files DO stutter on my standalone player. I copied them to my external HD, plugged the drive into the USB port on the player. VERY noticeable on my Sony BDP-S380. They DON'T stutter at all when played in MPC on my desktop.

I'm uploading them (Clips.zip) to MediaFire right now. I'll edit this message to indicate when it's done.

<edit>
Just finished uploading. I probably should have uploaded individually, instead of putting the 2 files into one archive. Oh well, here's hoping you're not on dial-up ;)

I've never used MediaFire before. Do I just need to provide this link?
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?17fdffi2s70vuby
</edit>