Blueray restriction about time between 2 sub?

[lutinor]

Is there a compliant restriction in blueray when you have a very short time between 2 subtitles ? (you can make fade in fade out with very short time between sub).

I'm asking this cause i have demux a .sup (with tsmuxer) and when i put the sup in bdsup2sup it says 'warning time between blabla'.

Is it a real prob or decent blueray player will live with it ? :confused:

[rik1138]

It can depend on your subtitles. A PS3 probably won't care, but some slower players might display the second subtitle a little later than you intended (it can take a few frames to load the graphic into the buffer).

One thing to reduce this is to make sure your subtitles are not full 1920x1080 graphics, but actually cropped to the size of the text itself (and use coordinates in the XML file to position them).

I've put subtitles end-to-end before so additional text will appear on screen while leaving the current line (like the subtitle for the dialog at the bottom of the screen for 20 seconds, and in the middle of that 20 seconds the speaker's name appears briefly. These were done with no gap in them, and it worked fine.) On a really slow player (like a 1st-gen) there might be a flicker at that point, can't remember...

It's another one of those 'warning' things like chapter points on I-Frames. It's not required, and the results will vary slightly from player to player, but it will technically work either way.

[Ghitulescu]

It can depend on your subtitles. A PS3 probably won't care, but some slower players might display the second subtitle a little later than you intended (it can take a few frames to load the graphic into the buffer).

Aren't they supposed to observe the timing? I mean, exactly? They are not bound by the frame but system clock ticks?

[lutinor]

It can depend on your subtitles. A PS3 probably won't care, but some slower players might display the second subtitle a little later than you intended (it can take a few frames to load the graphic into the buffer).

One thing to reduce this is to make sure your subtitles are not full 1920x1080 graphics, but actually cropped to the size of the text itself (and use coordinates in the XML file to position them).

I've put subtitles end-to-end before so additional text will appear on screen while leaving the current line (like the subtitle for the dialog at the bottom of the screen for 20 seconds, and in the middle of that 20 seconds the speaker's name appears briefly. These were done with no gap in them, and it worked fine.) On a really slow player (like a 1st-gen) there might be a flicker at that point, can't remember...

It's another one of those 'warning' things like chapter points on I-Frames. It's not required, and the results will vary slightly from player to player, but it will technically work either way.
So, i guess the best way is to put 2 subtitles streams :

1 safe (srt 'reliable' subtitle without fade in/out effect)
2 advanced (on a ps3 it seems ok from my last br-re test)

[rik1138]

Aren't they supposed to observe the timing? I mean, exactly? They are not bound by the frame but system clock ticks?

They are supposed to observe timing, and do, as best they can. Some players just can't load a full 1920x1080 PNG file in the duration of a frame (and certainly not repeatedly over a period of time as would be needed for an animated event). So they will be a few frames late. I've never seen it more than a couple of frames off, which is usually unnoticeable unless you are trying to make the subs play end-to-end. But when we weren't using full-frame PNGs, it always seemed to work fine (but it was just one instance here and there, not a full animated fade or something).

I'd say just build it, and throw it at every player you have access to and see how it performs. It's been about 2 years since I've done this, it's possible that all modern blu-ray players won't have a problem with it.

[lutinor]

They are supposed to observe timing, and do, as best they can. Some players just can't load a full 1920x1080 PNG file in the duration of a frame (and certainly not repeatedly over a period of time as would be needed for an animated event). So they will be a few frames late. I've never seen it more than a couple of frames off, which is usually unnoticeable unless you are trying to make the subs play end-to-end. But when we weren't using full-frame PNGs, it always seemed to work fine (but it was just one instance here and there, not a full animated fade or something).

I'd say just build it, and throw it at every player you have access to and see how it performs. It's been about 2 years since I've done this, it's possible that all modern blu-ray players won't have a problem with it.
During the past i used Subtitle workshop + dostudio. Workshop make full png , a subtitle is a 1280x720image but all new software (easysup, go sup etc...) always make a little png + xml position, do you know a way to make full screen png sub ? (compatible to scenarist) ?

[rik1138]

You don't want to, the little PNG + position is the way to do it.

The only software I've used for creating subtitles is Lemony, it has the option to crop them or leave them full 1920x1080. We've received subtitles from other captioning houses that were full 1920 also, so I assume all the professional subtitle software can do it... Not sure about the consumer stuff.

It also takes much longer to import full-screen subtitles than the cropped ones (in Scenarist, at least), so it's definitely recommended to avoid using them.

Rik

[lutinor]

You don't want to, the little PNG + position is the way to do it.

The only software I've used for creating subtitles is Lemony, it has the option to crop them or leave them full 1920x1080. We've received subtitles from other captioning houses that were full 1920 also, so I assume all the professional subtitle software can do it... Not sure about the consumer stuff.

It also takes much longer to import full-screen subtitles than the cropped ones (in Scenarist, at least), so it's definitely recommended to avoid using them.

Rik
Ok i will remember that ^^ :thanks:

[hamletiii]

I think the timing is calculated from the start time of the first subtitle to the start time of the next subtitle, rather than the start and stop time of the same subtitle. At least this is how it works for the sup spec and textST. There is no fixed amount of duration either, it depends on how large your graphic or window size for textST. The larger the graphics, the longer the gaps you need to put between subtitles. For subtitles with really short duration and gap, Scenarist BD will try to put them into the same Epoch to save buffer, but unfortunately BDSup2Sub does not support multiple composition objects under one epoch, therefore you get the warning, then if you output, it will mess your original structure and put gaps between the subtitles so that it can have one composition object per epoch.

Scenarist BD ALWAYS crops pictures for you! Regardless if your picture is full size or already cropped. If your picture is cropped already, it will be much faster for Scenarist BD to import and make the *.pes+mui files.

For fading, Scenarist BD supports tags <InlineEffect Type="Fade" Duration="00:00:00:23" Anchor="End">. What it does is alternating the color palette slightly for each composition object slightly rather than putting a new different picture with different opacity. Dostudio has some similar tag for fading. The point is that changing color palette is the way to go, although changing pictures per frame approach does work, it just taking away too much buffer, you might see flickering.

In Scenarist BD, it is also possible to have time conflicting events:

<Event InTC="00:00:11:08" OutTC="00:00:14:08">
<Graphic>ak_Track_0002.png</Graphic>
<InlineEffect Type="Fade" Duration="00:00:00:23" Anchor="End">
<Fade FadeType="FadeOut" />
</InlineEffect>
</Event>
<Event InTC="00:00:13:09" OutTC="00:00:17:11">
<Graphic>ak_Track_0003.png</Graphic>
<InlineEffect Type="Fade" Duration="00:00:00:23" Anchor="Start">
<Fade FadeType="FadeIn" />

As long as there are two AND only two composition objects within the corresponding duration, also the positions have to be different (This example is from Lemony but pictures are not cropped so the position tag is not shown). This is an example of cross-fading where the first picture 0002.png fades out AND at the same time, the second picture 0003.png fade in. In this case where you have more than one composition object at a time, Scenarist BD will create two windows for each composition object.

More of the details about buffer optimization, dual window configuration have been discussed in the avs2bdnxml (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146493) thread.

[rik1138]

Scenarist BD ALWAYS crops pictures for you! Regardless if your picture is full size or already cropped. If your picture is cropped already, it will be much faster for Scenarist BD to import and make the *.pes+mui files.


Are you sure about that? It certainly didn't use to do that, but I suppose it's possible it does with the newer versions.

When I import full-frame subtitles, and then rip the disc, it creates full-frame PNGs again. If I use cropped subtitles, and rip the assets, I get cropped PNGs. So when using full-frame PNGs to start with, the PG muxed into the video is assuming full-frame.

This was back in 4.5.3 or so... I've never tried this with 5.x (hell, I never get full-frame subtitles anymore anyway... :cool: ), so it could be a new function of the newer versions... Definitely a smart thing to do though, no point in making the player 'load' empty space.

Rik

[hamletiii]

Are you sure about that? It certainly didn't use to do that, but I suppose it's possible it does with the newer versions.

When I import full-frame subtitles, and then rip the disc, it creates full-frame PNGs again. If I use cropped subtitles, and rip the assets, I get cropped PNGs. So when using full-frame PNGs to start with, the PG muxed into the video is assuming full-frame.

This was back in 4.5.3 or so... I've never tried this with 5.x (hell, I never get full-frame subtitles anymore anyway... :cool: ), so it could be a new function of the newer versions... Definitely a smart thing to do though, no point in making the player 'load' empty space.

Rik

Just open the PES editor, you'll see bounding box (window) around the composition objects. Also in attributes, you can see the size and position. Also based on the size of the *.pes file, they are pretty small compared to the original files if non-cropped.

You can also do an experiment, try importing the subtitles cropped and non-cropped. You'll find that importing non-cropped picture taking much longer, and most of the time are spent on optimizing the pictures including cropping, and merging into epoches based on timing.

Long story short, yes Scenarist BD always optimizes the subtitles as much as possible.

I'm not sure what software you rip the subtitles, I know BD Reauthor Pro by default rip the subtitles same as video size so you always get the full frame. But those ripped subtitles are useless since the BD Reauthor Pro along with majority of the other tools such as suprip, supreader, BDSup2Sub don't support dual window composition objects. But thankfully BD Reauthor at least retains *.pes+mui so that your subtitles are unaffected during the reauthoring process.

[mp3dom]

Thanks hamletiii for the explanation. Regarding fade process, do you know if it's possible in Scenarist (bdn xml) to have a fadein+fadeout on the same PNG? Do you need the same PNG called twice in the xml (one with the fadein applied and another call of the same PNG with the fadeout applied)? Thanks.

[hamletiii]

Thanks hamletiii for the explanation. Regarding fade process, do you know if it's possible in Scenarist (bdn xml) to have a fadein+fadeout on the same PNG? Do you need the same PNG called twice in the xml (one with the fadein applied and another call of the same PNG with the fadeout applied)? Thanks.

Sure you can, no need to call the same png twice.

<Event InTC="00:00:04:02" OutTC="00:00:07:02">
<Graphic>ak_Track_0001.png</Graphic>
<InlineEffect Type="Fade" Duration="00:00:00:05" Anchor="Start">
<Fade FadeType="FadeIn" />
</InlineEffect>
<InlineEffect Type="Fade" Duration="00:00:00:05" Anchor="End">
<Fade FadeType="FadeOut" />
</InlineEffect>
</Event>

Or you could do this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1457398&postcount=166), but I'm not sure if it's a xml version 1.0 thing, the above syntax works for 0.93.

[mp3dom]

Thank you very much!