Encore cs5 encoder is low bitrate friendly

[lutinor]

These last day i try to find the best encoder with bitrate under 1500ko/s

Two h264 coder ownz the others

1: Adobe encore cs 5
2: x264 with cli

I guess i will use encore cs cause it's 100% blueray compliant.

Do you use other thing ?

[CruNcher]

1 = Mainconcept

[Dark Shikari]

CS5 just uses Mainconcept, which as can be seen here (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/h264_2010/figures/conclusion_movies.png), requires about 24% more bitrate for the same quality. The gap holds consistently at low bitrates (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/h264_2010/figures/rdmv_normal_up.png).

(I don't think CS5 offers all the options/capabilities of the full Mainconcept encoder package though, so it'll probably be worse than that. It might also be an older version.)

[lutinor]

1 = Mainconcept

I'm not really sure but i think encore use mainconcept encoder

[kieranrk]

I guess i will use encore cs cause it's 100% blueray compliant.

x264 is also Blu-Ray compliant. I'm not sure what you want us to do to show it's "more" compliant. It passes all the analyzers out there.

[sneaker_ger]

What about this change (http://pastebin.com/prB6K9d7)? Did older encodes make any trouble on players or were they just not 100% compliant?

[mp3dom]

I'm not sure what you want us to do to show it's "more" compliant.
Something (device=bluray inside x264, or an external GUI) that can fix/warn the user if he's using out of bd specs parameters or allows to use only valid settings for bd encoding.

Just my 2 cents, but I think that the 'common' user prefers to choose between only allowed parameters for BD compliancy (i.e. from 0 to 4 refs, from 1 to 3 bframes etc) than choosing from an unresticted sets of parameters that can go beyond bd compliancy (in the latter case the user need to know all the allowed parameters and there's no check for effective compliancy).

Also, I would like to ask if x264 was also tested for 'limit case' compliancy.
For example, if the GOP just before an IDR frame contains only I/P frames (no bframes), some old bd-players have problems during playback. All BD pro-encoder was updated months ago to avoid this. Was x264 tested/fixed to avoid this too?

[shon3i]

What about this change? Did older encodes make any trouble on players or were they just not 100% compliant?

This is improving compilancy not fix anything earlier.

Usually main problem here is that x264 is pure unrestricted, and here is more and more people want to stick with Blu-Ray or AVCHD. Maybe a quick new --tune bluray can be made for first hand.

[sneaker_ger]

I don't get it, can you be more specific? To my understanding there is either compliant or not, nothing in between.

[shon3i]

I don't get it, can you be more specific? To my understanding there is either compliant or not, nothing in between.
I want to say that x264 been full BD compilant before that update.

[Dark Shikari]

What about this change (http://pastebin.com/prB6K9d7)? Did older encodes make any trouble on players or were they just not 100% compliant?The Blu-ray spec was vague on a particular topic: the illustration in the spec contradicted the text. We contacted the official authorities on the matter and they told us which one was correct.

No analyzers actually checked this portion of the spec (possibly because it was vague), nor has any known player had an issue with this -- it's just good to be correct.

(It's quite possible that proprietary "Blu-ray compliant" encoders are incorrect on this topic as well.)

[sneaker_ger]

Thank you both, it's clear now.

[lutinor]

CS5 just uses Mainconcept, which as can be seen here (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/h264_2010/figures/conclusion_movies.png), requires about 24% more bitrate for the same quality. The gap holds consistently at low bitrates (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/h264_2010/figures/rdmv_normal_up.png).

(I don't think CS5 offers all the options/capabilities of the full Mainconcept encoder package though, so it'll probably be worse than that. It might also be an older version.)
I don't know what mainconcept's version encore cs 5 is in use but i have better quality/bitrate ratio in encore 5 than in x264. Maybe it's because i 'forget' a tip in x264 command line i dunno but i use the 'animation' preset in very slow mode...

I will post my final result soon

[lutinor]

The last mainconcept is the 2.2 and i finally made full test. My medias assets was in 2 format:

720x544 avc 5.1 / 1100kbps vbr / 4/3 ratio
+
720x576 mpg2 / 15000 cbr 16/9 ratio

Mainconcept beat x264, i'm actually at work and i can't post the images but i will do it tonight. I used the very low speed, the animation tune but nothing to do, mainconcept is always better.

Don't take it bad, x264 is maybe great in other cases but in this case it's not even comparable...

[shon3i]

Just please post and images of source and same frame of both MC and x264. Aslo post full settings you used in encoding, you can screenshoot MC dialogs.

[lutinor]

Just please post and images of source and same frame of both MC and x264. Aslo post full settings you used in encoding, you can screenshoot MC dialogs.
Sure, i will use tempg encoder with lossless picture (it's not a movie it's 1000000000 pictures without compression in bmp format, i love this tool cause its easy to compare different encoding)

The cli command line is the same than you can find on the blueray x264 site, i just added the animation preset, nothing more

[Dark Shikari]

Don't take it bad, x264 is maybe great in other cases but in this case it's not even comparable..."In this case" someone is making stuff up and not posting samples. This generally leads to threads being locked. Sure, you "can't post samples until tonight", but how about not posting extraordinarily claims without samples in the first place?

I'll give you 95% odds that you screwed up your comparison completely. How did you even input the BMP files into x264? You won't post your exact commandline, so nobody knows.

[lutinor]

"In this case" someone is making stuff up and not posting samples. This generally leads to threads being locked. Sure, you "can't post samples until tonight", but how about not posting extraordinarily claims without samples in the first place?

I'll give you 95% odds that you screwed up your comparison completely. How did you even input the BMP files into x264? You won't post your exact commandline, so nobody knows.

Sorry about that, i will be back at home in 3 hours...

my line in CLI x264 :

x264 --bitrate 1300 --preset veryslow --tune animation --weightp 1 --bframes 3 --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-maxrate 8000 --vbv-bufsize 8000 --level 3.2 --keyint 25 --b-pyramid strict --open-gop bluray --slices 1 --ref 5 --tff --aud --colorprim "bt470bg" --transfer "bt470bg" --colormatrix "bt470bg" --fps 25/1 --force-cfr --sar 16:11 --pass 1 -o out.264 input.file

here's my way :

1 file encoded with x264
1 file encoded with mainconcept

after that i compare with pegasys encoder, i don't compress, i just use bmp picture output, it exports every frame without any compression in bmp format, after that i use photoshop to compare files, 1 on the left, 1 on the right, you have the idea i think.

I will be back tonight about that and sorry if my post was badly interpreted :(

[Chikuzen]

x264 --bitrate 1300 --preset veryslow --tune animation --weightp 1 --bframes 3 --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-maxrate 8000 --vbv-bufsize 8000 --level 3.2 --keyint 25 --b-pyramid strict --open-gop bluray --slices 1 --ref 5 --tff --aud --colorprim "bt470bg" --transfer "bt470bg" --colormatrix "bt470bg" --fps 25/1 --force-cfr --sar 16:11 --pass 1 -o out.264 input.file


why don't you do --pass 2 ?

[Dark Shikari]

Sorry about that, i will be back at home in 3 hours...

my line in CLI x264 :

x264 --bitrate 1300 --preset veryslow --tune animation --weightp 1 --bframes 3 --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-maxrate 8000 --vbv-bufsize 8000 --level 3.2 --keyint 25 --b-pyramid strict --open-gop bluray --slices 1 --ref 5 --tff --aud --colorprim "bt470bg" --transfer "bt470bg" --colormatrix "bt470bg" --fps 25/1 --force-cfr --sar 16:11 --pass 1 -o out.264 input.file

What is "input.file"? Is it a lossless copy of the original?

Where is your second pass commandline?

[lutinor]

why don't you do --pass 2 ?
I use pass 2 but i have copy and paste my first line ^^ After that i use the second pass

x264 --bitrate 1300 --preset veryslow --tune animation --weightp 1 --bframes 3 --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-maxrate 8000 --vbv-bufsize 8000 --level 3.2 --keyint 25 --b-pyramid strict --open-gop bluray --slices 1 --ref 5 --tff --aud --colorprim "bt470bg" --transfer "bt470bg" --colormatrix "bt470bg" --fps 25/1 --force-cfr --sar 16:11 --pass 1 -o out.264 input.file

x264 --bitrate 1300 --preset veryslow --tune animation --weightp 1 --bframes 3 --nal-hrd vbr --vbv-maxrate 8000 --vbv-bufsize 8000 --level 3.2 --keyint 25 --b-pyramid strict --open-gop bluray --slices 1 --ref 5 --tff --aud --colorprim "bt470bg" --transfer "bt470bg" --colormatrix "bt470bg" --fps 25/1 --force-cfr --sar 16:11 --pass 2 -o out.264 input.file

I'm at work for 1 hour i don't have in mind my real name file but it doesn't mater i think, am i wrong ?

I will post the source and the rest tonight

[lutinor]

Ok, here you have the source media :

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2UC2LTM2

It's a nice 720x576 15megabit mpg 2 pal media

Now here's the result with the x264 cli :

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y2RKU7QR

And finally the result with mainconcept 2.2 :

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UIDPJDWM

You can see a picture comparaison here :

http://img812.imageshack.us/i/compa.png

[Dark Shikari]

Erm, you didn't properly deinterlace or IVTC your video before encoding it. It has atrocious interlacing artifacts.

Might I suggest next time being more cautious about jumping to blame the encoder?

[lutinor]

Erm, you didn't properly deinterlace or IVTC your video before encoding it. It has atrocious interlacing artifacts.

Might I suggest next time being more cautious about jumping to blame the encoder?

Tell me more plz ? Where is my mistake in cli ? Both tools used the same source file so where is the prob ?

[Dark Shikari]

In the Mainconcept encode, you've encoded your video as progressive.

In the x264 encode, you've encoded your video as interlaced ... and then proceeded to complain about combing artifacts when displaying it back without deinterlacing. What the heck are you trying to do here?

[lutinor]

In the Mainconcept encode, you've encoded your video as progressive.

In the x264 encode, you've encoded your video as interlaced ... and then proceeded to complain about combing artifacts when displaying it back without deinterlacing. What the heck are you trying to do here?

Both target file are interlaced , here's what mediainfo 0.7.43 tell about mainconcept file :

Scan type : Entrelacé
Scan order : Ligne du haut d'abord

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Tell me more plz ? Where is my mistake in cli ? Both tools used the same source file so where is the prob ?

If your source video is interlaced (or telecined), which apparently is the case here, you have exactly two options: Either you apply a deinterlace (ivtc) filter before encoding and you encode as progressive -or- you keep the video interlaced and encode it as interlaced (encoding interlaced video as progressive leads to destruction). In the latter case you will have to apply the deinterlace (ivtc) filter at playback time.

Both target file are interlaced , here's what mediainfo 0.7.43 tell about mainconcept file :

Scan type : Entrelacé
Scan order : Ligne du haut d'abord

You can, of course, take progressive footage (this includes interlaced footage after a deinterlacer has been applied!) and encode it as interlaced. The resulting video will then be encoded as interlaced, but the content will actually be progressive! Tools like MediaInfo can only tell you how the video was encoded, they can NOT telly you the nature of the actual content.

Probably the Mainconcept encoder (or the tool from which you used the Mainconcept encoder) applied a deinterlace/ivtc filter, but still encoded the resulting progressive(!) video as interlaced...

[Dark Shikari]

The Mainconcept file is listed as "interlaced", but the actual content is progressive, as you would see if you looked at it using your eyes.

[lutinor]

If your source video is interlaced (or telecined), which apparently is the case here, you have exactly two options: Either you apply a deinterlace (ivtc) filter before encoding and you encode as progressive -or- you keep the video interlaced and encode it as interlaced (encoding interlaced video as progressive leads to destruction). In the latter case you will have to apply the deinterlace (ivtc) filter at playback time.



You can, of course, take progressive footage (this includes interlaced footage after a deinterlacer has been applied) and encode it as interlaced. The resulting video will then be encoded as interlaced, but the content will actually be progressive! Tools like MediaInfo can only tell you how the video was encoded, they can NOT telly you the nature of the actual content.

Probably the Mainconcept encoder (or the tool from which you used the Mainconcept encoder) applied a deinterlace/ivtc filter, but still encoded the resulting progressive(!) video as interlaced...
Ok i ask myself like that :

I have a progressive source.

I use x264 with maybe bad option but anyway i get a bad result

I use another encoder and i get a good result

What can i change in x264 cli line ? I tryed to encode the source in interlaced mpg format but it doesn't help x264, the result is the same, where is the exact issue ?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I have a progressive source.

You don't have a progressive source in this case though :eek:

What can i change in x264 cli line ? I tryed to encode the source in interlaced mpg format but it doesn't help x264, the result is the same, where is the exact issue ?

If your source is interlaced (or telecined), as is the case here, and you want to keep it that way, then simply add "--interlaced" to the x264 command-line.

Then, of course, you will get your video encoded as interlaced, which means you must apply a deinterlace (ivtc) filter at playback time.

The other option, and usually the preferred one, is: Apply a proper deinterlace (or ivtc) filter before passing the video to x264. Avisynth is your fried here ;)

And then you can encode as progressive. Also you won't have to deinterlace/ivtc at playback time...

[lutinor]

You don't have a progressive source in this case though :eek:



If your source is interlaced (or telecined), as is the case here, and you want to keep it that way, then simply add "--interlaced" to the x264 command-line.

Then, of course, you will get your video encoded as interlaced, which means you must apply a deinterlace (ivtc) filter at playback time.

The other option, and usually the preferred one, is: Apply a proper deinterlace (or ivtc) filter before passing the video to x264. Avisynth is your fried here ;)

And then you can encode as progressive. Also you won't have to deinterlace/ivtc at playback time...
Can you link me about what is/using Avisynth ? but in my final output i must focus on blueray compliant low format aka 720x576Interlaced :(

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Can you link me about what is/using Avisynth ? but in my final output i must focus on blueray compliant low format aka 720x576Interlaced :(

Encoding progressive footage as interlaced is okay (although it wastes a bit of compression efficiency). Only the other way around it would be bad ;)

x264 even supports a "fake-interlaced" mode, which should be helpful when your footage is progressive but the BluRay standard enforces interlaced encoding...

Can you link me about what is/using Avisynth?

What is AviSynth? (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page#What_is_AviSynth.3F)

Your first script - A guide for total newbies (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/First_script)

Filter introduction - An introductory guide to most common AviSynth filters (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Filter_introduction)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Update:

I just finished downloading your source video file and had a chance to look at it. This indeed is progressive!

And I have no idea how you managed to get obvious interlacing artifacts with that source :confused:

Certainly you don't have to deinterlace/ivtc that specific source and you don't have to encode it as interlaced video.

(Use "--fake-interlace", if you must to make BluRay happy)

[sneaker_ger]

If your source is interlaced (or telecined), as is the case here, and you want to keep it that way, then simply add "--interlaced" to the x264 command-line.

Don't recommend "--interlaced", people should be using "--tff" or "--bff" to signal field order instead.

[lutinor]

Encoding progressive footage as interlaced is okay (although it wastes a bit of compression efficiency). Only the other way around it would be bad ;)

x264 even supports a "fake-interlaced" mode, which should be helpful when your footage is progressive but the BluRay standard enforces interlaced encoding...



What is AviSynth? (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page#What_is_AviSynth.3F)

Your first script - A guide for total newbies (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/First_script)

Filter introduction - An introductory guide to most common AviSynth filters (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Filter_introduction)

Thx for your help :thanks: but if i use --fake-interlace, will i get a compliant file ?

[sneaker_ger]

Thx for your help :thanks: i will try asap your --interlaced option in x264 and i will see if it changes much

Most of LoRd_MuldeR's posts were made under the assumption that your source is interlaced, which it is not. Do not use --interlaced, --tff or --bff on this source.

If you want to encode this specific source for Blu-Ray use --fake-interlaced.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Thx for your help :thanks: but if i use --fake-interlace, will i get a compliant file ?

Yes ;)

From the x264 help:

--fake-interlaced
Flag stream as interlaced but encode pogressive. Makes it possible to encode 25p and 30p Blu-Ray streams. Ignored in interlaced mode.

You must also remove "--tff" from your command-line (or even add "--no-interlaced").

[lutinor]

The fake interlaced tip work very well, now i would like a good control about the bitrate. I don't really get how x264 is working on this, actually i use 1 number :

--bitrate xxxx (xxxx is a number ^^)

but if i would like something like :

Target bitrate : 1100 , Max bitrate 3000

How can i do that in the cli ? :confused:

[shon3i]

--vbv-maxrate 3000 duh

[lutinor]

--vbv-maxrate 3000 duh

--bitrate 1100 --vbv-maxrate 3000

right ?

[kypec]

--bitrate 1100 --vbv-maxrate 3000

right ?
Not entirely, if you want to limit maximum bitrate you have to specify also --vbv-bufsize parameter, otherwise it'll have no effect on encoded stream.
The easiest method is to define both values equal:--bitrate 1100 --vbv-maxrate 3000 --vbv-bufsize 3000

[lutinor]

Not entirely, if you want to limit maximum bitrate you have to specify also --vbv-bufsize parameter, otherwise it'll have no effect on encoded stream.
The easiest method is to define both values equal:--bitrate 1100 --vbv-maxrate 3000 --vbv-bufsize 3000

Is there a blueray compliant restriction about that ? Or are we free ?

[nurbs]

You have to set the appropriate VBV values to be Blu Ray compliant. See the sticky (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533).

[lutinor]

You have to set the appropriate VBV values to be Blu Ray compliant. See the sticky (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533).
Mmmm nearly all things start to be clear in my mind. On your link i see this about one of my option :

--fake-interlaced
Since 25p or 30p video is not allowed for Primary Video, encoding progressive video that meet Blu-Ray specification is only possible with this option. If use this option you aslo need to specify --pic-struct

Question 1: What is --pic-struct
Question 2: it doesn't mention this on official x264 setting http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/X264_Settings#fake-interlaced

:confused:

[nurbs]

--pic-struct Force pic_struct in Picture Timing SEI
No idea if that's helpful, but I don't do Blu Ray so I don't know too much about it.

mewiki doesn't list all x264 options. If you want that just type "x264 --fulhelp".

If you are using the newest x264 revision (1936) you might also need --bluray-compat, which has just been added. See the changelog or help for more details.

[mp3dom]

pic-struct is mandatory for interlaced material, optional for progressive (it can be used without problems). It doesn't directly change the final quality.

[lutinor]

pic-struct is mandatory for interlaced material, optional for progressive (it can be used without problems). It doesn't directly change the final quality.
Good to know, about this : --bluray-compat

Do you know how does it work ?

ps: x264 is extremly powerful but a bit hard to reach the best, anyway i love it now :)

[mp3dom]

Good to know, about this : --bluray-compat
Do you know how does it work ?

According to changelog it should set open-gop to be bluray compliant (the old --open-gop 'bluray' ) and some other hacks to let the final stream be more bluray compliant.


ps: x264 is extremly powerful but a bit hard to reach the best, anyway i love it now :)
It has improved a lot (the same happends for other encoders too, anyway) but like all the avc encoders out there, it has its pro and cons points. It depends by what are your needs and what is your source.

[nurbs]

Take this with a huge grain of salt since I suck at programming, but looking at the code it seems like apart from the open-gop thing --bluray-combat does the following:

Limits b-pyramid to strict
Limits b-frames to 3
Sets --aud
Enables NAL-HRD
Limits refs to 6 and DPB accordingly
Limits weightp to 1
Sets some slice related parameters

There might be more, but I didn't look that thoroughly.
I assume that as usual that applies to the presets and can be overridden by manually setting values, but I didn't check.

[Dark Shikari]

Take this with a huge grain of salt since I suck at programming, but looking at the code it seems like apart from the open-gop thing --bluray-combat does the following:

Limits b-pyramid to strict
Limits b-frames to 3
Sets --aud
Enables NAL-HRD
Limits refs to 6 and DPB accordingly
Limits weightp to 1
Sets some slice related parameters

There might be more, but I didn't look that thoroughly.
I assume that as usual that applies to the presets and can be overridden by manually setting values, but I didn't check.Blu-ray compat also does internal hacks that you can't enable with other settings.