Encode just 3.7 GB, why so small?

[mattstan]

Hi,

I ran a backup with DVD-RB 1.28.2 Pro last night of The Social Network DVD which needed to be reduced in size from about 5 GB to 4.3 GB. I kept just one audio and one subtitle track (by first re-authoring the DVD with DVD Shrink with 'no compression'), enabled bitrate distribution (use HC), and set 9 CCE passes (CCE SP). The size of the resulting files is just 3.7 GB - in the past almost all my DVD-RB encodes have been very near 4.3 GB, a few a little under, but never less than 4.1 GB let alone 3.7 GB.

Can anyone explain why this would have happened - almost 15% of the potential space is unused?

Please note that the settings I used are ones I have used many, many, times and never before had a DVD anywhere near as little in size as 3.7 GB. Should I re-run the encode differently, if so what should I try?

Thanks.

[ggtop]

Hi mattstan,

don't except too much answers from jdobbs as you pre-processed the source and he doesn't want to track bugs for
other apps.
I can't see any reason for involving Shrink. You can easily remove audio & subtitle tracks in DVD-RB.

What is the final size without pre-processing?

ggtop

[yetanotherid]

I ran a backup with DVD-RB 1.28.2 Pro last night of The Social Network DVD which needed to be reduced in size from about 5 GB to 4.3 GB.

Was that before or after you removed the unwanted tracks?
What was the total file size once the tracks were removed?

Can anyone explain why this would have happened - almost 15% of the potential space is unused?

It sounds like that's all the space which was required to achieve maximum quality. I assume that particular DVD was fairly easy to compress.
It's non uncommon for a DVD to require no compression to fit on a single layer blank once all the unwanted stuff has been removed.

[mattstan]

Hi,

don't except too much answers from jdobbs as you pre-processed the source and he doesn't want to track bugs for
other apps.
I've done 100s of DVDs like this and do not think DVD Shrink has bugs when creating movie only DVDs.
I can't see any reason for involving Shrink. You can easily remove audio & subtitle tracks in DVD-RB.
So that the default audio and subtitle tracks can be set, of course this can be done after the DVD-RB encode with PGCEdit (or IfoEdit) but it's easier with DVD Shrink and it only takes 2-3 mins on my PC.
What is the size without pre-processing?
The full DVD was about 6.5 GB with menus and extras. With everything stripped out but the main video track with 1 audio and 1 subtitle track it's 4.9 GB.

Cheers.

[mattstan]

Was that before or after you removed the unwanted tracks?
What was the total file size once the tracks were removed?
Answered in the post above.

It sounds like that's all the space which was required to achieve maximum quality. I assume that particular DVD was fairly easy to compress.
It's non uncommon for a DVD to require no compression to fit on a single layer blank once all the unwanted stuff has been removed.
Not uncommon at all, but not in this case, 4.9 GB down to 4.3.

It seems strange that 3.7 could be the maximum quality because I've done literally 100s of DVDs in the same way and never had less than about 4.1 GB and more usually it's 4.3 GB, never before below 4 GB using DVD-RB to encode, and this one was 3.7 GB, leaving 600 MB of potential space unused.

Have you guys ever had as little as 3.7 GB after an encode with DVD-RB? Anyone?

Thanks.

[jdobbs]

Hi,

I ran a backup with DVD-RB 1.28.2 Pro last night of The Social Network DVD which needed to be reduced in size from about 5 GB to 4.3 GB. I kept just one audio and one subtitle track (by first re-authoring the DVD with DVD Shrink with 'no compression'), enabled bitrate distribution (use HC), and set 9 CCE passes (CCE SP). The size of the resulting files is just 3.7 GB - in the past almost all my DVD-RB encodes have been very near 4.3 GB, a few a little under, but never less than 4.1 GB let alone 3.7 GB.

Can anyone explain why this would have happened - almost 15% of the potential space is unused?

Please note that the settings I used are ones I have used many, many, times and never before had a DVD anywhere near as little in size as 3.7 GB. Should I re-run the encode differently, if so what should I try?

Thanks. You'll probably find that 3.7GB is the original size after removing the audio/subs you've deselected -- and the video likely wasn't even reencoded.

[mattstan]

You'll probably find that 3.7GB is the original size after removing the audio/subs you've deselected -- and the video likely wasn't even reencoded.
No that's not the case.

I created a DVD by re-authoring the original DVD using DVD Shrink, the outputted DVD consisted of the film's video track + 1 audio track + 1 sub track, no menu, no extras. The size of that is:

4.86 GB (5,221,705,728 bytes)

I encoded that with DVD-RB and the resulting DVD is:

3.69 GB (3,971,674,112 bytes)

Any ideas?

[jdobbs]

"re-authoring the original DVD using DVD Shrink"

Sorry, but preprocessing any source excludes it from support. When that happens I can't determine whether the issue is in DVD-RB or the software used for preprocessing. But I can tell you that in 99% of the cases I've examined the problem is caused by the preprocessing.

I'd recommend you use DVD-RB on the original and skip the DVD Shrink preprocessing.

[mattstan]

"re-authoring the original DVD using DVD Shrink"

Sorry, but preprocessing any source excludes it from support. When that happens I can't determine whether the issue is in DVD-RB or the software used for preprocessing. But I can tell you that in 99% of the cases I've examined the problem is caused by the preprocessing.

I'd recommend you use DVD-RB on the original and skip the DVD Shrink preprocessing.
Okay thanks.

I'll try that overnight tonight and post the results here tomorrow.

[mattstan]

Well there seems to be a problem...

This time I used the originally ripped DVD as the source, selected 'movie only' in DVD-RB but when I started the run I got this error in a messagebox:

"DVD Rebuilder experienced an error attempting to open DVD. [10:04:33] 00000 00009"

This was displayed in the status window:

[10:04:33] One Click encoding activated...
[10:04:33] 00000 00009 -- error attempting to open DVD.
- PREPARE Aborted. No source.
Aborted.

Changing 'movie only' to full resulted in the same problem.

Any ideas?

[jdobbs]

Well there seems to be a problem...

This time I used the originally ripped DVD as the source, selected 'movie only' in DVD-RB but when I started the run I got this error in a messagebox:

"DVD Rebuilder experienced an error attempting to open DVD. [10:04:33] 00000 00009"

This was displayed in the status window:

[10:04:33] One Click encoding activated...
[10:04:33] 00000 00009 -- error attempting to open DVD.
- PREPARE Aborted. No source.
Aborted.

Changing 'movie only' to full resulted in the same problem.

Any ideas? I'd recommend you uninstall and reinstall.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I have the EXACT same problem as mattstan. I wanted to open a new topic, but this one will do fine since it's the same problem with the same movie. Deja vu, heh.

I know my way around a DVD, I've done about 2000 of them. This is the first time it happend. Usually when DVD-RB did an undersized encode it meant the bitrate was to high, or so I thought. It never came out this badly undersized before (cca. 550 mb).

It's weird mattstan, it's like I posted the thread, heh. I reauthored the DVD using PGCEdit, and ripped the audio away with VobBlanker (standard procedure for me). The bitrate after the 'prepare' phase is exactly as it should be, but the encode comes out so badly undersized.

I can guarantee that the 'source' I'm trying to encode is flawless.

[mattstan]

Hi iNViSiBiLiTY,

Well now we know the problem is related to The Social Network DVD - let's get a bit more precise - are you, like me, in the UK, or if not, are you using a PAL version of the DVD? What ripper did you use? I used DVDFab. What encoder, was is CCE SP like me?

My update:

I did not hold out much hope for jdobbs' suggestion that I uninstall and reinstall DVD-RB - but he's The Man so I did that and then tried again, no joy the same problem persisted.

Then on my 'just the movie with 1 audio track and 1 subtitle track DVD Shrink reauthored DVD' I tried yet again. This time using just 3 CCE passes instead of 9 CCE passes (which is what I did originally). This time the size of the resulting files was 3.8 GB when before it was 3.7 GB.

Yesterday I decided to have another go but needed a new approach so I used VobEdit to demux the originally ripped DVD's video, audio, and subtitle streams - there were no errors. Then I used those files to author a DVD using IFOEdit, again there were no errors (sometimes if there's a problem with a DVD's video IFOEdit will point it out, EG. a buffer underrun -or is it overrun I forget?- error, but there were none). Unfortunately the IFOEdit authored DVD had the audio slightly out-of-sync and I did not have time to start again using DGMPGDec DGIndex to demux the streams (when demuxing with that it tells you what the audio offset is in miliseconds so that when authoring using IFOEdit you can specify the 'audio delay' (BTW does anyone know how to find out what the audio delay is from IFO files?).

Any advise - esp. from jdobbs - about what we could try next would be appreciated.

I have 'bitrate redistribution' enabled with 'always use HC for redistribution pass' on and 'apply to all VTSs' off. Would it be worth using HC for the encode instead of CCE, if so what settings should I use as I've always used CCE SP in the past?

Thanks all.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

Yes, it's a PAL dvd, but from another European region. I seriously doubt there's anything wrong with the dvd itself, CCE just shrinks it too much for some reason. I'm using CCE-SP2 by the way.

I heard dvd2dvd might be another solution, but I can't get it to work.

Oh, and my first encode was trying to leave 2 audio streams, and it came out just as much undersized as now, when I only want to leave English audio.

[ggtop]

Could you examine of how many cells the main movie is created (VOBBlanker or PGCEdit)?

I only encountered "heavy" undersizing when there are a lot of cells involved.

What about tweaking after prepare phase? You could increase the bitrates so that you end up ~correct. If you end up with 3.7 GB I would increase the bitrates (cell by cell, a bit of work!) to an overall size of 5 GB to reach the desired 4.35 GB. That's the way I do it!

BTW Or is the DVD Half-D1?

...I have to get one to see myself :)

ggtop

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

The number of cells is 18, so nothing weird about that.

I've tried increasing cell bitrates, but it just ends up undersized again.


I took a screenshot to compare cells

http://i55.tinypic.com/21nl15c.png

[mattstan]

Or is the DVD Half-D1?

No not Half-D1 (normal PAL, 720 x 576) but the aspect ratio is 2.35 : 1 so there are large black bands, see VLC screenshot below. Could this cause problems, it never has for me before?


VLC Screenshot: --Direct Link-- http://www.zilefile.com/files/14135_orpgd/VLC_Screenshot_TSN.png

http://www.zilefile.com/files/14135_orpgd/VLC_Screenshot_TSN.png

[ggtop]

I've tried increasing cell bitrates, but it just ends up undersized again.

To which final size did you increase the bitrates in the preview window?

I hope I can get my hands on this title by the end of the week.

Maybe it is the nature of this specific video and the encoder.
What about HCENC or disabling the redistribution pass?

@mattstan: Do you still get an error on opening the source folder? You could try another ripper such as RipIt4Me or Any DVD? It seems VIDEO_TS.ifo has been currupted...

ggtop

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I think it was about 5,00 gb in the preview window. The bitrate redistribution was off.

Fun fact: When trying to encode only the first cell (and blanking all the others), the cell came out undersized just te same as when encoding the entire thing. So I guess the bitrate spikes too much from time to time, and Rebuilder can't handle it?

[ggtop]

Last idea for now...there's unreferenced audio.
DVD RB tells you in the log how much space there is for the video after prepare phase. Can you look for that?

ggtop

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

The audio was properly ripped, and references removed. As mentioned before, when trying to encode for the first time, I left two audio streams.

Space for Video : 3.966.258KB

Which looks good to me. The audio is 5.1, and the menu is around 130 mb.

[mattstan]

Maybe it is the nature of this specific video and the encoder. What about HCENC or disabling the redistribution pass?
Yes it is !!

Last night I ran the encode with HC (Best Quality) and not CCE, the resulting DVD was 4.3 GB.

It's been an odd one, but I'm happy with the HC encode.

Thanks all.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I had no doubt other encoders would work, I just want to get to the bottom of this and find out why CCE doesn't.

[ggtop]

I now have a R2 release and make some tests tonight using CCE 2.5 and SP2.
@mattstan: You can also use newer versions of HCEnc within DVD-RB. There should be some guides to do so.

ggtop

[ggtop]

I did an encode of it and it came out 550 MB undersized using CCE 2.70.0.12. It was preprocessed like the way I always do.

I'll try CCE 2.5 next.

And then of course the original source :)

ggtop

[mattstan]

@mattstan: You can also use newer versions of HCEnc within DVD-RB. There should be some guides to do so.
Out of interest how did you know I'm not using the latest version?

Well I'm just using HC Encoder v.0.23 which was installed as part of DVD-RB Pro, I see that v.0.25 is now available.

Do I need a guide to install it? Is it not just as simple as replacing the current version with the new in DVD-RB's encoders directory? If not that simple any idea where the guides are, did a search and did not find?

What benefits are there? Does it improve the bitrate distribution which I have set to use HC by default?

Thanks.

[mattstan]

I did an encode of it and it came out 550 MB undersized using CCE 2.70.0.12. It was preprocessed like the way I always do.

I'll try CCE 2.5 next.

And then of course the original source :)

ggtop

I'm glad this is happening for everyone and not just me. I wonder if jdobbs is following this thread and has ideas about why this is happening with CCE while HCEnc has no such problems.

I've done a lot of DVDs with DVD-RB + CCE 2.70 and never had a problem like this before.

[ggtop]

It's been an odd one, but I'm happy with the HC encode.


Sorry, I misread your post and thought you mean "old one" because HC 0.23 is outdated.

My tests with various encoders:
CCE 2.70 ends up massively undersized (see above)
CCE 2.50 ends up 4.33 GB
HC 0.25 also ends up 4.33 GB
(all encodes with 1 audio and menu (menu encoding activated).

All reencoded cells show a smaller final size than they "should", except the ones marked for "no reencode" with CCE 2.70. So I guess it's a bug in CCE regarding this type (?) of video.

ggtop

[mattstan]

Sorry, I misread your post and thought you mean "old one" because HC 0.23 is outdated.

My tests with various encoders:
CCE 2.70 ends up massively undersized (see above)
CCE 2.50 ends up 4.33 GB
HC 0.25 also ends up 4.33 GB
(all encodes with 1 audio and menu (menu encoding activated).

All reencoded cells show a smaller final size than they "should", except the ones marked for "no reencode" with CCE 2.70. So I guess it's a bug in CCE regarding this type (?) of video.
Thanks for the info. ggtop and for taking the time to investigate.

Are there benefits to replacing HC Encoder 0.23 with 0.25? If so do I just replace the current version with the new in DVD-RB's encoders directory?

Thanks.

[ggtop]

To be honest I haven't studied the changelogs, but I am quite sure the quality of HC has improved since 0.23.

Look at this thread for replacing: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144876

Maybe we'll find someone who is able to find out what is so special with this particular video.

BTW It's a SONY release...so who knows what they did in order to decrease the quality of a backup ;-)

ggtop

[jdobbs]

Sorry, I misread your post and thought you mean "old one" because HC 0.23 is outdated.

My tests with various encoders:
CCE 2.70 ends up massively undersized (see above)
CCE 2.50 ends up 4.33 GB
HC 0.25 also ends up 4.33 GB
(all encodes with 1 audio and menu (menu encoding activated).

All reencoded cells show a smaller final size than they "should", except the ones marked for "no reencode" with CCE 2.70. So I guess it's a bug in CCE regarding this type (?) of video.

ggtop I would question the implementation of v2.70 that you are using. I'd suggest you download CCE v2.70 and install again. I've done hundreds of discs with it and have never had an issue. Also, be careful if you are using a trial version. Some of them limit the encode framecount and that can result in severe undersizing. It also means a lot of the movie is missing also.

As for HC v0.23... I personally don't see any difference (at least in the way it is used by DVD-RB), but it doesn't hurt to upgrade. Just copy "HCenc_025.exe" and rename it to match the name used by DVD-RB (HCBATCH.EXE) and put it in the "ENCODERS\HC ENCODER" in the DVD-RB installation folder. Be careful not to copy the GUI executable by mistake.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

CCE 2.50 ends up 4.33 GB

This makes me want to try 2.50 sooo bad, but I don't want to f*** up any settings since SP2 has been working wonderfuly all this time.

[ggtop]

I would question the implementation of v2.70 that you are using. I'd suggest you download CCE v2.70 and install again. I've done hundreds of discs with it and have never had an issue. Also, be careful if you are using a trial version. Some of them limit the encode framecount and that can result in severe undersizing. It also means a lot of the movie is missing also.


Thank you for giving some advice, but I don't use the trial nor do I have problems with CCE 2.70 at all. Except this title. I compared the framecounts on the *.m2v and they're absolutely identical with all encoders so there's no miss. They are just smaller than they could be.
I have a workaround in using HCEnc/CCE 2.50 on this one so I'm fine.
Are you interested in some logs? I'll keep all the working files a few days...

This makes me want to try 2.50 sooo bad, but I don't want to f*** up any settings since SP2 has been working wonderfuly all this time.

I don't get the point. Choose CCE SP (v2.50) from Settings/CCE Settings, decrease the passes by 1 and you're gone.

BTW I made another full backup on the movie with the unprocessed source (AnyDVD 6.7.8.0) which came out 3,9 GB.

ggtop

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I don't get the point. Choose CCE SP (v2.50) from Settings/CCE Settings, decrease the passes by 1 and you're gone.

How the hell am I supose do that? I have SP2 installed, so all the others are frozen.

[ggtop]

First you have to install 2.50 SP of course. Then run Encoders.exe from the DVD-RB config subfolder to install ECL support for it. Choose the EclCCE.exe in the settings dialog (Settings/Setup) in DVD-RB.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I get that, I just don't want the two encoders clashing in the registry or something.

[jdobbs]

I get that, I just don't want the two encoders clashing in the registry or something. They won't. I have CCE Basic, SP 2.50, SP 2.70, and SP2 all installed on my system. With that said... I don't use them much anymore. I like HC Encoder better.

[louv68]

I too was having undersized encodes with CCE v2.70 and HCEnc v0.23 with movie only, 1 audio, 1 subtitle. I updated HCEnc to v0.25 and it worked perfectly at 4.34 GB
This was the first time ever I've seen such undersized encodes. I had tried running the ripped title thru FixVTS, DVDShrink to recreate the DVD with no re-encoding, just recreating to fix it. I also tried removing the .ifo's, .bup's and recreated them with IFOEdit. Nothing but updating HCEnc worked. Very strange indeed.

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

They won't. I have CCE Basic, SP 2.50, SP 2.70, and SP2 all installed on my system. With that said... I don't use them much anymore. I like HC Encoder better.

Ok, I'll try it over the weekend then. Thanks for the tip.

[six13]

did I read CCE SP 9 passes? wow, 2 or 3 is enough in my experience with CCE SP. I prefer 300 fps with HCenc25 best profile, real good output.

[ggtop]

I have another one: "Buried" (R2). It came out 3.7 GB with CCE 2.7. I'll do another encode with CCE 2.5.

[setarip_old]

@ggtop

Hi! "Buried" (R2). It came out 3.7 GBIf you'd watch the movie, you'd be aware that the entire movie was shot in virtually total darkness and almost no motion - and doesn't require much in the way of filesize for compression...

[iNViSiBiLiTY]

I've finally got around to do some testing, and I can confirm older versions of CCE can handle dvds like this one. I used v2.67, and it came out great.

[jdobbs]

I have another one: "Buried" (R2). It came out 3.7 GB with CCE 2.7. I'll do another encode with CCE 2.5. It seems pretty obvious that the version 2.7 you have installed is faulty. Why do you continue to use it?