BD-R degradation! [Archive]

quartex

15th January 2011, 20:16

Hi all. This is a sad story...
For my backups I 'm using Verbatim LTH BD-R single layer and Verbatim BD-R dual layer
So far I have experienced this:
burning is ok, playback is ok, but after some months (about 5-6 months) disk is not playable anymore.

To check my BD-R I've tried copying them to hard disk. It tooks a bit but apparently I succesfully copied the content of the BD (BDMV and Certificate dirs) to hard disk simply with a copy and paste (speed rate degraded..)
After that I executed clownBD on the BDMV folder on the hard disk and....eac3to it's complaining about source files damaged!!
The source file seems to be damaged (sync byte missing).
The source file seems to be damaged (discontinuity).

So just copying from BD to hard disk without any error message is not enough to be sure BD content is good???

Also... I have verified the BD with imgburn and it didn't report any damaged sector... it took a lot of time to complete and speed degraded a lot for the last 10% (start at 2.48, finish at 0.3) but no errors reported...
Same happened using nero scandisk. read speed degraded but it didn't report any damage/defect.

So now I'm stuck... What am I missing?

Maybe degradation bring corrupted frames... In this case the only way to be sure BD-R is good is to try demuxing it using eac3to.... If this is true than it's really a pain in the ass..

What I cannot understand is why imgburn verify and nero scandisk don't report any error and file transfer to hard disk completes. Still when eac3to process the files blame about damaged source.

Looking carefully at BD surface I noticed a sort of impression..
Probably it's the impression being put on the coating layer by my disc wallet. The coating tends to be slightly soft on so anything that's pressed against them will eventually leave a mark.

What do you think about?

jdobbs

15th January 2011, 20:41

There have been posts all over this forum advising against using LTH discs... and today they are no cheaper than true BD-R's. There's not much else I can say.

If ImgBurn says it's okay, what happens when you copy it to an ISO image with ImgBurn and rewrite to a BD-RE or true BD-R?

quartex

15th January 2011, 21:39

There have been posts all over this forum advising against using LTH discs... and today they are no cheaper than true BD-R's. There's not much else I can say.

It happened with Verbatim BD-R 50 true BD-R too

setarip_old

16th January 2011, 01:10

Based on your two posts to this thread, it could be some bad bits on your hard drive...

quartex

16th January 2011, 01:56

Based on your two posts to this thread, it could be some bad bits on your hard drive...

but the BD-R were playable some months ago and now they aren't anymore...

setarip_old

16th January 2011, 03:11

Sorry, I overlooked that in your first post.

If both LTH and "standard" BD-Rs are exhibiting this behavior, namely, they previously played and now they won't, then it's likely either a storage problem (e.g. excessive humidity, careless disc handling [fingerprints, dirt, scratching, etc.]) or a player problem...

jdobbs

16th January 2011, 03:27

Have you tried it from a standalone player? It's possible your drive is or has become slightly misaligned.

Ghitulescu

16th January 2011, 10:37

I suggest moving this thread to a proper place, nobody would think to find BDR burning related issues (with no mention of bd-rebuilder either) in a BD-rebuilder related sub-forum :)

quartex

16th January 2011, 11:46

Have you tried it from a standalone player? It's possible your drive is or has become slightly misaligned.

Some of them are not playable anymore in my standalone player (I discovered the issue when I decided to watch again some old movies). Others are playable but I haven't watch the whole movie so probably they will freeze or get jerky at some point.
All the bad BD-R have in common a sort of impression in the surface (it could be the mark left by the folder when they were placed). It's slightly noticeable but you can see it looking carefully and it's noticeable in the outer edge...

Mediogre

16th January 2011, 17:11

It's the disc wallet you're using. I had the same thing happen to me when I stored them in soft disc sleeves. After about a year, most exhibited small indentations due to the sleeve and ~15% would not play at the outer edge of the disc. I immediately switched to using jewel cases and have not had a problem since. One interesting thing I found is that .Verbatim discs are much more prone to this than TDK or Ritek. My mantra now is not to let ANYTHING touch the data side of a BD-R EVER.

quartex

16th January 2011, 18:04

KarstenS

16th January 2011, 19:15

Are this LTH disks using organic materials?

I know this phenomen from DVD. Non organic disks life really al long time. But organic disks are sometimes just for a not so long time (mine died after 18 month one after another) useable.

Mediogre

16th January 2011, 19:20

Are you using generic jewel cases or something specific?

Just the generic thin cases. Storing them in cake boxes would also be fine. Just make sure nothing touches the data side of the disc.

For me this occurs on both LTH and HTL discs.

quartex

16th January 2011, 19:25

Just the generic thin cases. Storing them in cake boxes would also be fine. Just make sure nothing touches the data side of the disc.

For me this occurs on both LTH and HTL discs.

Thanks.
Still slimcase surface also touches data side of the disk, isn't it?

jdobbs

16th January 2011, 20:28

Thanks.
Still slimcase surface also touches data side of the disk, isn't it? I think the those as well as other CD/DVD/BD cases are specifically designed to touch only the hub. Another hint is to always store them vertically.

A.Fenderson

18th January 2011, 04:46

If you want to get "fancy," I've ordered this item from the seller on the page (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000U0E08I/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A2617WYN7TGQ9K), and they're great for only 35 cents a piece. I've not experienced it first-hand, but I believe the problem is due to the storage used. I think Verbatim even specifically state somewhere on their site/products to use only jewel cases for BDs.

DVD_fan

18th January 2011, 10:51

Hi All,

I thought I’ll add my 2p as well.

I had exactly same issue with my BD-R backup disks. I burned my AVCHD video on Verbatim BD-R disks and put them in Case Logic wallet (exactly same as the one here) After some time about 10 of these Verbatim BD-R 25GB disks would not play back completely on my Panasonic BD 35 and I could not copy them over to my HDD. I also kept DVD-R and some TDK BD-R 25GB disks in the same wallet. I’ve tested all DVD-R disks and managed to copy them all with no issues. I also copied one of the TDK BD-R 25GB ok… I have not tried to copy all TDK but it seems as TDK are less susceptible to this problem. Being a big Verbatim fan that has upset me a bit… I only used HTL inorganic disks and as others mentioned all disks had some sort of impression on the disk coming from wallet underlining…

I’ve experienced very similar issue with some repackaged Verbatim BD-R 50GB media I bought from eBay. They were packaged in sleeves very similar to ones you see in CD/DVD wallets. They also had pattern of the sleeves they were kept in. Most of these disks failed to verify somewhere on second layer… If you buy repackaged BD media ask seller to package it in Cake boxes…

I don’t think all wallets are that bad. I’ve kept most of my BD-R disks in other type of wallets (really old Esperansa branded ones) and I’ve recently tested some of the disks that I kept in these wallets TDK 25GB and Verbatim BD-R25GB and 50GB and they copied to my HDD with no problem. I will probably try and test them all to be sure… I also feel it might be a combination of wallet underlining and how tight you pack them in. As in case of new BD-R 50GB disks I mentioned earlier it didn’t take long for them to develop fault. Couple of week in Airmail transit from Japan to UK… But they were tightly packaged together with a cling film.

I really hope I don’t have to transfer all my BD disks to jewel cases as it would not have space in my flat to keep them all…

How do you guys keep you BD-R disks? It there a safe alternative to wallets that is also not as space consuming as jewel cases?

jdobbs

18th January 2011, 15:46

I keep all mine in thin-pack DVD cases. It fills up shelves -- but it also keeps them safe.

laserfan

18th January 2011, 18:47

As light tends to destroy everything (including I expect the dyes in recordable discs) I recommend storing all blanks and recorded discs in drawers or otherwise covering them, particularly from windows/sunlight.

jdobbs

18th January 2011, 19:59

Normal DVD and BD cases do a good job of keeping light out.

Video Dude

18th January 2011, 20:21

I would have preferred if they had chosen a solid blue for the case standard, rather than the transparent blue.

rapscallion

18th January 2011, 23:32

Buying Verbatim spindle packs would seem to indicate that the record surfaces touch each other.

Even if the hub is slightly thicker.

jdobbs

18th January 2011, 23:46

Buying Verbatim spindle packs would seem to indicate that the record surfaces touch each other.

Even if the hub is slightly thicker. If you feel the hub of a disc you'll see that it is slightly thicker than the disc itself. So when they are stacked in a spindle, there is a very slight distance between the recording surface and the disc below it. After you open them, though, and pull out the white packing disc(s), it's possible they can move slightly and touch.

laserfan

19th January 2011, 17:58

Normal DVD and BD cases do a good job of keeping light out.
I use slimline jewel cases, sometimes colored, sometimes clear, which in theory should at least stop some of the UV. Certainly black DVD cases oughta do a good job, and if the discs are sandwiched vertically on a shelf that oughta help too, but I'm just sayin' -- keep a recordable library well-away from any kind of light. Better safe than sorry.

quartex

19th January 2011, 19:42

when you all talk about slimcase you mean specific BD case like this one?
http://www.cdrohlinge24.de/images/artikel/36636_1.jpg

or generic cd case can be enough?
http://www.cdrohlinge24.de/images/artikel/40787_1.jpg

jdobbs

19th January 2011, 19:57

Slimline cases like this one. You can get them for about $20 per hundred.

laserfan

19th January 2011, 20:56

I use these, which have clear fronts and colored backs.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PxK5ni8iL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
I don't think they are safe to leave "out"; I keep mine stored vertically in closed drawers. But jdobbs' should be perfect because they let-in no light.

Giljorak

19th January 2011, 23:14

I use these for my DVD and BD-R storage needs:
http://www.meritline.com/images/product/medium/180-330.jpghttp://www.meritline.com/images/product/medium/180-330_2_.jpg

From here: http://www.meritline.com/cd-dvd-510-holder-wallet-holders-wallets---p-39026.aspx

I use a movie catalog application to keep track of them all. With the catalog software I export the info to MySQL and then use a custom designed website for the household to use to locate movies.

Gregintosh

20th January 2011, 17:09

jdobbs

20th January 2011, 17:19

My BD collection is very important to me, so I built this little storage shed in my backyard just to keep them protected. :)

laserfan

20th January 2011, 18:36

My BD collection is very important to me, so I built this little storage shed in my backyard just to keep them protected. :)Wow, donations must be going well. ;)

Back here is where I keep mine:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4587899680_0aec6a0111.jpg

jdobbs

20th January 2011, 18:53

Wow. How'd you get a picture of my real house? That was a few years ago -- the paint doesn't look that good anymore.

Giljorak

20th January 2011, 23:52

Hmm... seems a bit excessive lol. I hope this was a joke?

Not a joke at all. Bit excessive :eek: .... not at all.

jdobbs

21st January 2011, 04:08

Not a joke at all. Bit excessive :eek: .... not at all. Looks pretty efficient to me.

Giljorak

21st January 2011, 17:40

Looks pretty efficient to me.

So far it has worked well. No more hassles with keeping everything alphabetized.

JJB

21st January 2011, 21:37

So far it has worked well. No more hassles with keeping everything alphabetized.

I've been using that setup for several years using Movie Collector as the database. http://www.collectorz.com/movie/

I tend to stay away from the 1000 capacity as you need a mule and a come-along just move it.:p

The only problems I ever encountered was using cheap media (in the early days of DVD) and having to re-do the burn using Ty or Verb.

Giljorak

22nd January 2011, 03:36

I've been using that setup for several years using Movie Collector as the database. http://www.collectorz.com/movie/

I tend to stay away from the 1000 capacity as you need a mule and a come-along just move it.:p

The only problems I ever encountered was using cheap media (in the early days of DVD) and having to re-do the burn using Ty or Verb.

I use Ant Movie Catalog for my database. http://www.antp.be/software/moviecatalog

I only use the 510 capacity ones that I linked to, they are quite manageable when full.

djmasturbeat

24th January 2011, 06:17

http://teknmotion.com/gallery_images/TekNmotion_MaxxGuard_200-390/maz_390/testimage_main_max390.jpg
http://teknmotion.com/TMCDSC390A.asp

i have 2 of these cases that are similar to the ones posted above
mine were twice as much with a good bit less capacity -- 390 vs 510 (thanks for the link, i am switching)

they still have the plastic sleeve though, with the soft fiber back, which might be bad for these sensitive Verbatim BDRs I have, so i may just move my BDR media to cheap jewel cases, and designate the cases to DVDs only. which is fine since i can't fit them all anyhow.
the nice things about the case is -- that i can lock it up and keep my toddler son out... which i can't do with the retail vinyl/CDs/ DVDs/BDs ... which is one major reason i backup o/c; also it keeps out light, and i can move many of them easily.

the other cons -- some of the sleeves were torn, and one of the braces that holds sleeve in the corrals broke first time i used it -- which is a bitch, since i don't see a way to replace these things.

still, $25 for a case that holds 510 is nice. as long as they offer shipping that isn't US Postal i may save up for one or 2 o f the other brand (meritline).
EDIT:
well, the shipping is spendy, but can still be cheaper than local

Ground Service $14.03
Express Saver $32.36
2nd Day $41.82
Standard Overnight $58.28
If i am in a rush(?), i would be better off buying the ones in town with only $50+ tax

Now i just need to make locking doors on my media shelves to keep my son off the retail stuff :P

JJB

24th January 2011, 14:35

http://teknmotion.com/gallery_images/TekNmotion_MaxxGuard_200-390/maz_390/testimage_main_max390.jpg
http://teknmotion.com/TMCDSC390A.asp

i have 2 of these cases that are similar to the ones posted above
mine were twice as much with a good bit less capacity -- 390 vs 510 (thanks for the link, i am switching)

they still have the plastic sleeve though, with the soft fiber back, which might be bad for these sensitive Verbatim BDRs I have, so i may just move my BDR media to cheap jewel cases, and designate the cases to DVDs only. which is fine since i can't fit them all anyhow.
the nice things about the case is -- that i can lock it up and keep my toddler son out... which i can't do with the retail vinyl/CDs/ DVDs/BDs ... which is one major reason i backup o/c; also it keeps out light, and i can move many of them easily.

the other cons -- some of the sleeves were torn, and one of the braces that holds sleeve in the corrals broke first time i used it -- which is a bitch, since i don't see a way to replace these things.

still, $25 for a case that holds 510 is nice. as long as they offer shipping that isn't US Postal i may save up for one or 2 o f the other brand (meritline).
EDIT:
well, the shipping is spendy, but can still be cheaper than local

If i am in a rush(?), i would be better off buying the ones in town with only $50+ tax

Now i just need to make locking doors on my media shelves to keep my son off the retail stuff :P

Every now and then Supermediastore puts these on sale at buy one get one free and free shipping. They are the same quality as Meritline. I own both brands.

http://www.supermediastore.com/product/u/cd-dvd-storage-case-linkyo-aluminum-metal-like-390-capacity

quartex

25th January 2011, 20:24

Any difference in term of quality between these:

http://www.cdrohlinge24.de/verbatimbluraybdr25gb4x10pcsincakebox-p-27162.html

and these:
http://www.cdrohlinge24.de/verbatimbluraybdr25gbfullprintable4x25pcsincakebox-p-37297.html

Thanks in advance

JJB

25th January 2011, 21:06

quartex

25th January 2011, 21:18

It appears by the Verb part number It's just a 10 pack VS a 25 spindle.

ok thanks. the 25 spindle (printable) cost per BD is lower than 10 pack (non printable)... I'm surprised about that... Is something common?

JJB

26th January 2011, 03:05

ok thanks. the 25 spindle (printable) cost per BD is lower than 10 pack (non printable)... I'm surprised about that... Is something common?

Supply and demand...the more you buy the cheaper per disc it should be and then more people make money.:)