Handling 4:3 PC video on 16:9 TV

[ptrk.mj]

Hello.

I've VGA-connected my laptop to my widescreen TV set.

Unfortunately, it does not support 16:9 resolutions so I end up watching movies in a black frame (letterboxed by media player for 4:3, then pillarboxed by TV for 16:9).

For what I know, DVD players actually output 4:3 frame, even for widescreen movies, which is then unsquished by the TV itself (if it happens to be anamorphic).

The point is: can I somehow adapt this routine to my setup? That is, tell the media player to play back the video intact (no letterboxing, no stretching) and let it to be handled by TV as it is.

That would enable me to watch anamorphic DVDs. However, I have a lot of square pixel movies too so let me know if there is soulution for them as well.

BTW, I use VLC media player and MPC-HC.

Looking forward to your reply.

ptrk.mj

[TheSkiller]

Does your laptop not let you choose a 16:9 resolution or does your TV not accept 16:9 resolutions through VGA?

If your laptop does not offer you any 16:9 resolutions you can try to add some 16:9 resolutions with a program called "PowerStrip". It will just add them to the other resolutions so that you can apply them as usual. It's not a limitation of the hardware of your laptop, it's just the silly graphic drivers.

With MediaPlayerClassic or VLC you could disable the automatic letterboxing and then set the TV to 16:9 mode manually (it won't happen automatically). But this will only work correctly if the video you play is exactly 16:9 and not wider like cinemascope (it's the video's aspect ratio that counts, if the actual footage is cinemascope letterboxed in a 16:9 frame then it's fine).

[ptrk.mj]

Thank you for the reply.

It's not a limitation of the hardware of your laptop, it's just the silly graphic drivers.
Great news! I'm going to play a little bit with the program you mentioned.

With MediaPlayerClassic or VLC you could disable the automatic letterboxing
Could you guide me to the relevant option? There's just too many of them for me.

But this will only work correctly if the video you play is exactly 16:9 and not wider like cinemascope (it's the video's aspect ratio that counts...
Every widescreen (including anamorphic) movie on DVD is pre-letterboxed to 16:9, is that right? So I would be able to watch them without changing the resolution?

[mike20021969]

With MediaPlayerClassic or VLC you could disable the automatic letterboxing
Maybe I'm blind, but no option for that in either MPC (View>Options) or VLC (Tools>Preferences).

[TheSkiller]

Well, it's not called "automatic letterbox" in either player. It's the aspect ratio settings.

MPC: Right click on the video, Video Frame -> Override Aspect Ratio -> 4:3

VLC: Right click on the video, Video -> Aspect Ratio -> 4:3


This will stretch your 16:9 video (with or without cinemascope letterbox) to 4:3. This squeezed 4:3 image that contains the original 16:9 picture then gets steched back to 16:9 on the TV by setting it into 16:9 mode and therby stretching a 4:3 resolution to 16:9.
In other words, two errors cancel each other out.


Every widescreen (including anamorphic) movie on DVD is pre-letterboxed to 16:9, is that right?
Yes, that's right. DVDs won't cause any trouble with this method.

[ptrk.mj]

In other words, two errors cancel each other out.Sounds great, but how about video quality? Is it going to be preserved or maybe some details are lost when squeezing to 4:3?

I'm going to find out myself soon.

I tried setting custom resolution with PowerStrip utility you mentioned with no success. '1360x768p PDP' was the name of the preset I chose (it fitted the TV spec best).

The program mentions that in order to take advantage of custom resolution settings one need a driver with such capability (PowerStrip only augments it). And my chipset family (ATI Rage) is not listed under supported ones.

[mike20021969]

With MediaPlayerClassic or VLC you could disable the automatic letterboxing
Well, it's not called "automatic letterbox" in either player
Huh?
It's the aspect ratio settings.
MPC: Right click on the video, Video Frame -> Override Aspect Ratio -> 4:3

VLC: Right click on the video, Video -> Aspect Ratio -> 4:3
Now you tell us.

[TheSkiller]

I was talking in general (rather non-PC) terms, it's not my fault that either player doesn't call it "automatic letterbox". :rolleyes:

I didn't explain it in the first place because I first wanted to know more about the actual problem, so that I don't have to write an answer that is 90% useless to ptrk.mj. :eek:

Sounds great, but how about video quality? Is it going to be preserved or maybe some details are lost when squeezing to 4:3?If you choose a 4:3 resolution greater then that of DVD then you won't loose any actual detail with this method. However, the video will run through two steps of resizig before it will finally display on your TV. But nothing you need to worry about, if your TV is halfway decent at scaling it will be no visible loss.



I tried setting custom resolution with PowerStrip utility you mentioned with no success. '1360x768p PDP' was the name of the preset I chose (it fitted the TV spec best).
Hm, so you clicked on the preset and selected to add it and then you weren't even asked if you would like to apply or test the preset right now? Yes, in that case it seems your graphics driver is incabable of having custom resolutions added...

I've experienced this only once with an Acer laptop with ATI graphics. The last thing you could try is installing the "full" ATI catalyst driver from ATI instead of the one that came preinstalled with your laptop or on a disc.

[ptrk.mj]

Finally, I got it all working yesterday! :)

If you choose a 4:3 resolution greater then that of DVD then you won't loose any actual detail with this method.Could you explain technical details behind that? You sound like you know what's what and I'm an inquiring mind.

The highest 4:3 resolution that my TV can handle is 1024x768 (0.8 Mpx). Graphics card can go up to 1600x1200 (1.9 Mpx).

DVD-Video should not face any bottleneck in that as it only goes up to 0.4 Mpx.

But how about HD video? I tried playing 720p video and it looked great, but it is actually slightly above the limit (0.9 Mpx).

However, the video will run through two steps of resizig before it will finally display on your TV.Okay, so this is a second consideration. Yet, I think my TV is doing a good job.

Yes, in that case it seems your graphics driver is incabable of having custom resolutions added...
Yes. Official FAQ confirms that:
Put another way: S3, SiS, Trident, pre-GMA Intel, and ATI Rage and Rage128 users should go no further - you are limited to the resolutions you find in Display properties.

The last thing you could try is installing the "full" ATI catalyst driver
You mean the latest drivers? Designed for modern GPUs?

You're really helping me out. Thank you!

[TheSkiller]

Could you explain technical details behind that? You sound like you know what's what and I'm an inquiring mind.
If you have a certain amount of "information" and package this information into something where actually much more information could have been fit, then your original information is used to fill that additional space, and thus, although your original information gets altered, it's still there. No loss.


But how about HD video? I tried playing 720p video and it looked great, but it is actually slightly above the limit (0.9 Mpx).
Since the width of 720p is 1280 pixels, in theory you do lose some information from the slight horizontal downconversion to 1024 pixels. However, it does depend on the content and it's actual picture quality whether this is visible at all. I would not be too concerned about it, like you've said, it still looks great.

[manono]

For what I know, DVD players actually output 4:3 frame, even for widescreen movies, which is then unsquished by the TV itself (if it happens to be anamorphic).
You're talking about standalone DVD players? If so, that's not correct. That's why you choose in the DVD player's setup menu whether it's outputting for a 4:3 or 16:9 TV set - so it's resized properly when sent to the TV set.

[ptrk.mj]

Hello again.

You're talking about standalone DVD players? If so, that's not correct. That's why you choose in the DVD player's setup menu whether it's outputting for a 4:3 or 16:9 TV set - so it's resized properly when sent to the TV set.
Can you provide any referance? Yes, I'm talking standalone players.

Lecture of DVD FAQ (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html) made me think it's a widescreen TV who does the job. I can't find the relevant citation at the moment.

And the setting you mentioned (4:3 vs 16:9) determines if the video should be processed for standard TV (with letterbox or pan & scan, according to another setting). That is if you choose 16:9 the video is passed unaltered (squished).

I might be wrong, though!

---

Yet I would like to raise another issue.

I have a problem with subtitles when playing in my 4:3 PC to 16:9 TV setup (as described by TheSkiller). They are deformed.

I'm using DirectVobSub.

I know the reason for that, what I don't know is how to avoid it.
The cause of distortion lays in a fact that subtitles are not horizontally squeezed prior to sending to TV (contrary to the main content). Nevertheless, TV set stretches them and they become 'fat'.

Is there any tweak possible?

[manono]

Can you provide any referance? Yes, I'm talking standalone players.
Well, we were both wrong, but maybe you were 'righter' than I was. For a 4:3 source being sent out to a 4:3 TV set, the player does the work. compressing the 720x480 (3:2) image into a 4:3 shape before sending to the TV set. For a 4:3 source to a 16:9 TV, the 4:3 image is sent and the TV adds bars to the sides. For a 16:9 DVD to a 4:3 TV set the player does all the work, compressing the image vertically as well as adding black bars above and below, and sending the resulting image to the TV set.

For a 16:9 DVD to a 16:9 TV set, the unaltered image (3:2 and not 4:3) is sent to the TV set where it's stretched out to fill the screen. It was the double resize you were implying earlier I balked at and which lead me to say different (and also wrongly). I apologize for contradicting you.

The DVD FAQ to which you linked has it, but not all that clearly, I don't think:

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.5

Better, I think, is the Anamorphic site:
Anamorphic video as it appears on a Digital 16x9 TV. The "squished" image recorded on the disc (seen at top) is sent directly to the TV, which stretches the video signal horizontally until the correct aspect ratio is achieved.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

You did correct yourself in your latest post (That is if you choose 16:9 the video is passed unaltered (squished).) But that contradicts what you said in your first post where you said, DVD players actually output 4:3 frame, even for widescreen movies, although you may not have realized that the 720x480 resolution of NTSC DVD meant it's stored as 3:2 and not 4:3.

[ptrk.mj]

manono, thank you for your last reply.

you may not have realized that the 720x480 resolution of NTSC DVD meant it's stored as 3:2 and not 4:3.
I can't agree with that.

There are indeed 720 horizontal and 480 vertical pixels but that doesn't necessarily make the picture frame 3:2.

First of all, there is horizontal overscan. Only 711 out of 720 pixels store the actual image information.

Secondly, the pixels are not square. For NTSC DVD they have an width-to-height aspect ratio of 4320/4739 ≈ 0.912.

The resulting 'active' image frame is close to (but not exactly) 4:3.

This issue is getting full treatment in this guide:

http://www.iki.fi/znark/video/conversion/

[AnonCrow]

There are indeed 720 horizontal and 480 vertical pixels but that doesn't necessarily make the picture frame 3:2.


As manono said, the storage aspect ratio is exactly 3:2 , regardless of frame/pixel aspect ratio or original picture area, whether actually less than 720 horizontally or more than 480 vertically.

[Ghitulescu]

Again someone that confounds the content with its packaging.

Since there are only 4 resolutions allowed on a DVD, namely 352x240/288 (MPEG-1 only, for VCD compability), 352x480/576 (HalfD1, for VHS compatibility), 704x480/576 (CropD1) and 720x480/576 (NTSC/PAL), the AR of the image (called SAR) is always, for eg 720x480, 3:2 and 5:4 for PAL. The content can have only 2 aspect ratios (called DAR), namely 4:3 and 16:9. Movies that are neither (like 2.40:1 or 2.35:1 or 1.85:1, or even 1.66:1 or whatever) will always have black bars top and bottom (a process called matting).