Capturing old camcorder video

[skubany]

Hi,

So I have a very old mini-VHS camcorder from ~1996. My plan is to capture video+audio to an uncompressed avi container, then compress it with MeGUI using avs scripts like I've done with my DV video collection.

I've bought this http://www.avermedia-usa.com//AVerTV/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=188 for captures. I'm using the latest driver available on the manufacturer's site. I'm connecting using the Composite video cable straight from my camcorder.

I would have used the bundled Cyberlink PowerProducer but it insists on automatically deinterlacing the video footage in preview mode which makes the video blurry and still partly interlaced. I'm trying to use VirtualDub v1.9.10 for capture as I've found that the video is interlaced and sharp, the way I want it.

The problem with VirtualDub is that as the video is being captured, after time, VD starts losing frames even though CPU usage is only 2%. Setting bigger buffer under "Capture->Disc I/O..." lets me capture more of the footage before the frames start dropping. Using 16MB buffer, the skipping of frames starts around 20min mark and gets progressively worse very quickly. Using 512KB buffer, default, the skipping of frames starts around 4min mark. When frames are being skipped VD does not increment the skipped frames counter, it remains at 0. I've made changes to the "Capture->Timings..." settings. Prior to making those changes the drop frames counter was being incremented.

When previewing video in VD, irregardles of the buffer size, the video skips every ~2-3 seconds. There is no such skipping of video when previewing in Cyberlink's PowerProducer. While recording, this video skipping behavior is also present in the preview panel but unnoticeable when palying back from file. Maybe because it's hard to notice one frame dropped in 29 frames(?)

When capturing with VD, the capture window, shows jitter values in ms that vary from second to second but stay in the [12,-20] ms range. Should I worry about this?

Another problem is that audio might be getting out of sync more the longer I record. The shift in audio is very minor though.

I've tried multiple setting in VD to get it to capture video correctly.

Anyone know,
How can I eliminate frame drop in VD? (PowerProducer does not drop any frames)
Ensure that audio remains in sync while capturing?

Is there better capturing software out there?

Thanks

[TheSkiller]

Are you sure you've set the driver to the correct video standard (PAL, NTSC, SECAM) for your VHS-C footage (check "Capture filter")?

Also make sure you've set the capture window (check "Set custom format") and especially frame rate (check "Capture pin") to values that are correct for your video standard (frame rate is either 25 or 29.97 and nothing else!). Also, don't set values that are not supported by your device (for example, if you set the color space to RGB although the device actually does not support it it could result in frame drops). Set the color space to YUY2.

Also make sure you've set the audio sample rate to the device's native audio sample rate ("Raw capture format"), probably 48000Hz. Even if your camcorder audio may be mono, capture in stereo.


To make sure it's actually a problem with the settings
and not the device (or signal) itself — capturing VHS-C footage is not an easy task, especially if the signal comes from a camcorder without a TBC — you should try to capture a solid signal like from a DVD-Player playing a DVD without copy protection or the live video output of your camcorder (NOT the tape) and then look for frame drops and sync issues.


Edit: Your capture device seems to have integrated audio capture, this means you should go to the "Timing" settings and
• tick "Automatically disable resync when integrated audio/video capture is detected"
• tick "Do not resync between between audio and video streams"

[skubany]

video standard: NTSC_M (default), there is also NTSC_M_J which is slightly brighter to my eyes. I'm in US, so I figure it has to be set to NTSC. There are other settings which I did not try, such as: NTSC_433, various PALs, various SECAMs.

capture format/rate:
640x480 YUY2 4:2:2 interleaved, any other I believe will give error as unsupported, I tried a few days back.
framerate is 29.970 and can't set anything else, if I try it just reverts back.

audio sample rate: unsure what the camera has but VD is set to 48kHz/16/s, when I tried lower kHz the audio recorded was of noticabely lower quality. Camera is most likely mono since there is only one audio output on the back of it colored white. I use a cable splitter, high quality (from old subwoofer cable) to connect the mono audio out to white/red cables on the capture device.

live capture: still get frame drops, I could try connecting an old DVD-recorder that I have but remember, when capturing using PowerProducer I don't notice any frame drops. Just that the picture quality is worse :(

Tried various resync options and the only way NOT to get reported and observed frame drops is by ticking OFF the "Drop frames...." option in Capture Timings Options window.
When I do that the picture is smooth but I did observe audio desyncing when recording a few minutes of video. It may just be that the audio is more out of sync the longer the recording time.

If no solution is available, I'm thinking about recording in short bursts, say about 10mins each. That way I get no frame drops which occur after a long recording time (20min+) and hopefully audio desyncing will be kept to a minimum.

Thank you for your help and I'll be waiting to see if anyone can suggest other changes/things to try.

[TheSkiller]

Tried various resync options and the only way NOT to get reported and observed frame drops is by ticking OFF the "Drop frames...." option in Capture Timings Options window.
When I do that the picture is smooth but I did observe audio desyncing when recording a few minutes of video. It may just be that the audio is more out of sync the longer the recording time.

Have you read my edit? For capture devices like yours with integrated audio capture (which means the same device that digitizes the video signal also digitizes the audio) it is important to prevent VirtualDub from doing it's own resyncing because your capture device already does that.


video standard: NTSC_M (default), there is also NTSC_M_J which is slightly brighter to my eyes. I'm in US, so I figure it has to be set to NTSC.
Yes, then "NTSC_M" is correct. NTSC_M_J looks brighter because the Japanese NTSC-J has it's black level at 0 IRE while the others have their black level at 7.5 IRE (so black is actually dark gray but it is interpreted as black).


Another thing that is certainly worth a try: VirtualVCR! (http://virtualvcr.sourceforge.net/)

[skubany]

Yes, I have read your edit and I did try all the settings under resync and none make any difference.

I tried all settings possible under timings window, nothing helps except by disabling "Drop frames...", the topmost option in that window.

I'll look at virtualVCR!

[GrofLuigi]

Why not let it drift during capture and then correct it afterwards, see if you're satisfied with the result:

1. in virtual dub menu Video>Frame Rate>Change so video and audio durations match (worse, you end up with weird framerate)

2. strech the audio to match the duration of the video in an audio editor

The audio might be hurying up or lagging behind during the course of a long video, but you have to see with your own eyes and hear with your own ears whether it's acceptable to you. Maybe the changes will cancel each other out. :cool:

GL

[skubany]

virtualVCR is a no go, doesn't seem to see the audio stream from my capture device. I have that happen with another freeware capture software that I tried a few days back.

Another question. Would I be better off capturing from a VCR as opposed to the camcorder even when using same cable connections? Does a VCR have better tape reading hardware? I have a VHS-small->VHS-regular tape adapter but no VCR, but can get an old VCR from one person. Not sure if it's worth the trouble though.

I suppose there would be no difference in connecting my camcorder (composite,LAudio) with a DVD-recorder and then outputting SVideo + LRAudio signal to my capture device from the DVD-recorder?

[mike20021969]

I've found that the video is...sharpVHS-C 'sharp'?
The VHS format had no more than 260 lines of horizontal resolution.
I would've thought that uncompressed AVI format for capturing VHS (-C) was overkill.

I've captured VHS at <4000kbps MPEG2, burnt it back to DVD and you cannot tell the difference.

[Ghitulescu]

I suppose there would be no difference in connecting my camcorder (composite,LAudio) with a DVD-recorder and then outputting SVideo + LRAudio signal to my capture device from the DVD-recorder?

It this a joke?
If you don't want any "cosmetical" changes to the video, just use the DVD recorder to capture the tape. Set it at the highest quality and press REC :). This way you won't have absolutely no desynch, well, unless your tape has problems (mechanical or electrical). Then, if you must convert it to AVI, copy the DVD onto the HDD (chances are that the DVD recorder burns in a [sort of] proprietary format, so better use a compliant software, I used TDA).

[skubany]

VHS-C 'sharp' when comparing the VD capture to Cyberlink's PowerDirector. Capture same recording using VD and PD. Deinterlace+x264 using avs scrip that I created for my DV tape digitalization. Open each file in separate VLC instances, set the same frame in both and quickly flip between the two. VD is better quality than PD, slightly but still. If I'm going to do this once in my life, might as well make it best it can possibly be. It will then last forever as 0s and 1s on a medium that doesn't degrade over time and is easier to duplicate :)

I already have these VHS-C tapes captured using the DVD-recorder. And the quality of those recordings is way worse compared to what PD or VD produces. Colors are off, recordings are interlaced. VLC shows incorrect runtimes, which means the codec/settings used must have been non-standard or non-widely used. Seeking is a pain.

I use AVI because I want to combine/cut the clips and then compress using x264. From capture to final compression I don't want to be losing quality and AVIs is the only way I know to ensure that.

After further testing it seems that I'm forced to use VD and short recording of no more than 10min at a time. Once transferred I'll stitch the pieces together.

[Ghitulescu]

I already have these VHS-C tapes captured using the DVD-recorder. And the quality of those recordings is way worse compared to what PD or VD produces. Colors are off, recordings are interlaced. VLC shows incorrect runtimes, which means the codec/settings used must have been non-standard or non-widely used. Seeking is a pain.

What model is that strange and curious recorder?

The recordings should be interlaced, as the standard is interlaced.

[skubany]

What model is that strange and curious recorder?

Panasonic DMR-E95H

The recordings should be interlaced, as the standard is interlaced.

I'm complaining about interlaced because when I try to deinterlace using my script+software, only the first few seconds get done and the remaining footage is discarded - very weird.

[davexnet]

Have you tried recording to HufyyUV instead of uncompressed?
Uncompressed maybe slightly lower cpu-wise, but it sends a massive amount of data through the
PC to the harddrive and that can cause problems if your disk is a little slow.

[TheSkiller]

Would I be better off capturing from a VCR as opposed to the camcorder even when using same cable connections? Does a VCR have better tape reading hardware? I have a VHS-small->VHS-regular tape adapter but no VCR, but can get an old VCR from one person.
If that VCR that you could get is a good one then it would definitely be the preferred player for your VHS-C videos (it's called VHS-C).
By "good" I mean it should have advanced playback options such as Edit/Tape Dub mode and maybe even an internal TBC. Most decks (if not all) that can do this are actually S-VHS recorders with S-Video outputs — there's no better way to capture your VHS-C footage. If it's just a regular cheap VHS recorder then you're better off using the camcorder (assuming the camcorder has no playback isses whatsoever).
Really, the difference between a cheap VHS recorder and a good S-VHS deck is quite impressive.


If you use a DVD-Recorder you have to rip and demux the video files to your hard drive properly first before doing anything with them. Index them with DGIndex and then you can use a script with MPEG2Source to open the files.



I've captured VHS at <4000kbps MPEG2, burnt it back to DVD and you cannot tell the difference.
At full D1 resolution? I highly doubt that. ;)

[mike20021969]

At full D1 resolution? I highly doubt that. ;)
720x576.
When viewed on a TV, I cannot tell the difference between that and the <260 lines VHS tape.

Another thing I tried a couple of years ago, was taking some archived TV footage captured at 7000kbps (DVD HQ profile on my capture device), converted it to 640x360 1000kbps DivX, burnt that back to DVD. When viewed on 24" 16:9 CRT tv, it looked like off air TV broadcast.

[skubany]

davexnet:
I haven't tried HufyyUV. I don't think it would make a difference. For one, recording to uncompressed AVI with PowerDirector does not drop a single frame. I've did a test of 24-26min live camera recording (non tape) and the output was proper all out. The same live test, much shorter even, started dropping frames with VD after 12-20min, largely depending on the buffer size set. The higher, the longer the footage can be recorded. Two, I'm writing to a RAID 5 array capable of disk writes 100MB/sec+. It may be that my RAID hardware (Areca ARC-1220) is part of the problem, since it's not a standard setup - who knows, everything's possible.

TheSkiller:
The VCR I can borrow does not have an S-Video out, so while I had it for a day, I did not bother to try capturing from it since the only reason I was looking into VCRs was to be able to use the superior, compared to composite, S-Video cable. Do you think a VCR that old can still be better than my camcorder, using composite video connection? What's a TBC?

Edit:
The only problem with the camcorder is that it looks to be damaging the tapes if I rewind. Initially I was capturing a short footage many times over and after a few rewinds I noticed a line appeared over the video. After further testing it appears to be caused by rewinding the tape in the camcorder. Or it may be that the tapes are so old that a single/multiple playback is enough to damage it, unlikely though. So I have this line appear in a number of short recordings. Sound ticks are starting to appear in the recording as well. I'm a bit worried about this and work out my settings with live camera feed only. Ideally I want to run the tapes once through the camcorder to capture them to the computer. I also rewind the tapes by hand.

[mike20021969]

What's a TBC?It is a Time Base Corrector.

[TheSkiller]

Do you think a VCR that old can still be better than my camcorder, using composite video connection?
Actually most older VCRs are built in a much more solid way than newer VCRs and have better drive mechanics.
Most newer VCRs should be labeled "plastic buckets". ;)

The S-Video connection of S-VHS decks does provide an advantage over composite even with VHS (reason: luma and chroma are stored separately on the tape, with a composite connection they get mixed together and then have to be separated again). But the difference is not that big, depending on how good your capture device handles the composite signal there may be no visible difference.

Whether that VCR delivers a better picture than your camcorder depends on the mechanical and electrical condition of that VCR. If the VCR is in good working condition it should be on par with your camcorder, but that can also depend on the brands of your camcorder and the VCR.


Initially I was capturing a short footage many times over and after a few rewinds I noticed a line appeared over the video. After further testing it appears to be caused by rewinding the tape in the camcorder.
If something like that happens you should fully unwind the tape to the very end and then rewind it back all the way to the beginning without playing it in-between. This ensures the tape is wound straight and with some tension, avoiding tape wobble for the next playback (which can cause such a line).
You should do this with any tape that hasn't been played for years.
Manually rewinding should be okay (I guess it takes quite some time), but you could also use that VCR for rewinding.

[Ghitulescu]

It depends on the age of the VCR, older models cannot play correctly a VHS-C tape, as the camcorders have a smaller drum. End of 80ies and begin 90ies are ok, before they are generally unable to play correctly, after they are garbage built.

[skubany]

If something like that happens you should fully unwind the tape to the very end and then rewind it back all the way to the beginning without playing it in-between. This ensures the tape is wound straight and with some tension, avoiding tape wobble for the next playback (which can cause such a line).
You should do this with any tape that hasn't been played for years.
Manually rewinding should be okay (I guess it takes quite some time), but you could also use that VCR for rewinding.

So you are saying that I should unwind then rewind all my tapes, even if the tape is already at the beginning? Should I use the camcorder or do it by hand? I don't have the VCR anymore, it was returned.

[mike20021969]

Should I use the camcorder or do it by hand?
Is that a trick question?

[Ghitulescu]

His camcorder apparently distroys the tapes, that's why :)
There are rewinders...

[skubany]

If I rewind and then playback the rewound section I'm greeted with an annoying line over the video. About 30% down length wise from the top.

So you see, I'm very afraid of that rewind functionality of my camcorder. But if it's caused by misaligned tape, which can be fixed by unwinding and then rewinding then I may try it with one tape to see if that line rears its ugly head again. :)

[Ghitulescu]

Buy for 5$ (garage sale, eBay etc.) a VCR of 1989-1995 (few years +-), a rewinder (VHS or VHS-C) and a cassette adapter and live happy. Check lordsmurf's pages on which VCRs are suitable. The investment (time, money, work) should always be proportional with the value of the recordings.

The drop line of 1/3 is generally caused by dirt on the guides. Check the mechanism and clean it with a soft, clean cotton cloth, maybe with a lilbit of alcohol.

[skubany]

Would a cleaning tape suffice?

I did take a look inside the camcorder once and I don't want to touch anything in there. It's very hard to reach anything in there.

Edit:
In a way it's hard for me to believe that it could get dirty inside, since it has been sitting in a closed carrying case for all these years.

[mike20021969]

Would a cleaning tape suffice?
Dry cleaning cassettes are normally (better) for cleaning the rotating head drum.
Wet cleaning cassettes are normally (better) for the tape path (guides, capstan, pinch roller).

'Dirt' can be in the form of shed tape coating, minute dust particles, fibres or even smoke. The size of 'dirt' can be microns, so it might not even be visible to the naked eye.

[Ghitulescu]

Would a cleaning tape suffice?

I did take a look inside the camcorder once and I don't want to touch anything in there. It's very hard to reach anything in there.

Edit:
In a way it's hard for me to believe that it could get dirty inside, since it has been sitting in a closed carrying case for all these years.

A close-up photo of the tape would be probably enough to identify the cause. The dirt I'm talking about can be caused not only by the exposure of the camcorder to dust but the dirt carried by the cassettes (the tape inside might electrostatically attract various artefacts).

[2Bdecided]

If I rewind and then playback the rewound section I'm greeted with an annoying line over the video. About 30% down length wise from the top.I'd be worried too - it could be creasing the tape - certainly a horizontal crease or scratch on the tape would cause the exact picture problem you describe.

Hop over to videohelp.com and read the capturing and restoration forums there. Plenty of suggestions for decent VHS machines for capturing.

Cheers,
David.

[skubany]

Time to revive this thread :)

I think I'll stick with my camcorder.

I found a video capture app that may work well.

In that app on the config screen where I can set compression level I can also choose various codecs. I click "no compression" box to save it as raw, but what codec am I using in this scenario? While keeping "no compression" ticked I changed the codecs on that config page but VLC always shows the same codec details when playing back the recording, which leads me to believe that the codecs chosen are in effect only when there is actual compression being done, which I'm disabling. So what codec is being used for uncompressed recordings? Is it one that comes with windows? Can it be overwritten to a different one?

Tomorrow I'll record one tape using this software and "no compression" set and see if there is any audio sync problems.

Also, I can cut/edit to my hearts desire uncompressed avi without affecting video quality (with "AVI Trimmer + MKV 2.0", for example)?
Once I'm satisfied with the clip, I'll use meGUI for final compression and deinterlacing.

Thanks.

[setarip_old]

VLC uses its own internal codecs...