This has got to stop! (or: source code only distro do not violate software patents)

[Doom9]

Jesus - what is going on here these days?
neuron2 makes an incorrect statement about ffmpeg and suddenly this whole place is anti open source and in fact we're kicking out another open source project every day ? I hardly have any words for how completely false that characterization is. This place has been and is the incubator of a lot of open source projects from the early days until this very day. We've even used rule5 many times over to discourage spreading information about commercial alternatives because they simply didn't bring any added value to the table.

The popular MeGUI software was started by myself and I was its sole maintainer for the better part of three years - and it is open source software. What more proof would anybody require that I stand firmly behind the concept?

It is well established on this forum (since we've had this discussion before) that source code only distributions of implementations of any patented video standards do not fall under patent laws. So, given that, here's how that discussion should've gone in civilized society:

neuron2: ffmpeg violates MPEGLA licensing.
<whomever disagrees with the above>: Hold on a minute. Here's a reference to a thread about program Y where this very issue was discussed and it was found that distributing source code without binaries poses no problem even in countries that recognize software patents. And here's yet another link to another thread in this very forum about the same issue.

Given that, I feel your statement is incorrect. What makes you believe the information provided above does not apply to ffmpeg?
neuron2: umm - let me check.
<some time later>
neuron2: you're right, I checked and I was mistaken. Sorry for the confusion.

And that should've been the end of it.

Instead we have
neuron2: ffmpeg violates MPEGLA licensing.
Dark Shikari: This is not correct...

and here's where it gets muddy... Unfortunately, the record keeping was done improperly... I only have posts that were removed (because I need to be able to follow what has transpired in the proper order, I have therefore rewritten the moderator rules so that they ask for exact record keeping - I cannot do my job and review issues impartially if all I get are fragments and the story told from both sides).. apparently at some point neuron2 stated "Further posts about this here will be deleted." to which the response was "Until you remove your FUD about open source projects, I will continue to post this. ".. and then there seems to be a repeating loop with strikes and reposts that lead to a suspension, and a new thread to be created where people behaved and in the end, neuron2 revised his statement.

Now, we have several issues here
1) Improper record keeping. Measures taken: Moderator rules are now very strict about record keeping. In addition, I had one appeal for a strike that resulted out of this situation. That one was rescinded, in no small part because it was not really evident to that the rule had been violated (it requires specific instructions to be given prior... and if I can't follow the timeline)

2) Potential conflicts of interest - cases where moderators need to recuse themselves have been formally added to the forum rules.

With that, I feel what has transpired should not happen again - if it does, it constitutes an egregious breach of moderator rules which will result in termination. But even in the face of termination, there's one thing I cannot do: I cannot make anybody apologize for something unless they want to. It doesn't matter whether I think an apology is deserved - that's the nature of free will.

Now, can we please get back to more productive things?

[Guest]

"Further posts about this here will be deleted." Please permit me to clarify that that statement was accompanied by an invitation for posters to post that same material in a new thread. I did not want it in my support thread! The person suspended (not banned) kept reposting it in my support thread even after I instructed him not to do that in a PM. Also, as you know, I did try to call in other mods in compliance with the mod rules as they existed at the time.

[stax76]

Here is the origin of the conflict in case somebody missed it:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=151095

And yes, I'll try to follow Doom9's advice now going back to more productive things.

[ChronoCross]

Please permit me to clarify that that statement was accompanied by an invitation for posters to post that same material in a new thread. I did not want it in my support thread! The person suspended (not banned) kept reposting it in my support thread even after I instructed him not to do that in a PM. Also, as you know, I did try to call in other mods in compliance with the mod rules as they existed at the time.

While your clarification is correct you probably should have just started a new thread yourself instead of going OffT (and telling others to open a new thread to keep this one OnT) and getting angry at people attempting to clarify it in thread for later viewers to see.

Your thread will likely have long term visibility (as compared to that FFMPEG discussion thread) and anyone going through it will run across that statement. While you were gracious enough to edit your post to include a retraction it still didn't really have any place in your thread in the first place.

Everyone involved in this is being a bit too emotional and over reactionary and I've got to agree with doom9 in that one incident does not change the entire worldly view of a forum and it's owner/mods/users.

[Guest]

Your thread will likely have long term visibility (as compared to that FFMPEG discussion thread) and anyone going through it will run across that statement. While you were gracious enough to edit your post to include a retraction it still didn't really have any place in your thread in the first place. I'm happy to totally delete that statement and the entire second thread. But then I'd be attacked for that. "Look at that power mad prick, trying to change history." Face it, I can't do right no matter what I do.

Tell me what to do. I'm all ears to make the record clean on FFMPEG. I made a big mistake about it. I'm sorry. I apologized. But I don't have the power to delete that thread.

I've been getting up every morning for 7 years to delete wow gold spam, fix "Help me" thread titles, approve attachments, and YES, help users where I can and try to push new frontiers with my tools. And this is the result...one mistake and it becomes open season on neuron2.

[Sharktooth]

@chronocross, your post is not appropriate. doom9 just asked to stop this.

@neruon2, delegate the responsibility to keep, delete or split the thread to the admin (doom9).

[ChronoCross]

I'm happy to totally delete that statement and the entire thread. But then I'd be attacked for that.

Tell me what to do. I'm all ears to make the record clean on FFMPEG. I made a mistake about it. I apologized. But I don't have the power to delete that thread.

I personally am satisfied with the outcome with the whole situation (aside from the entire x264 devel team leaving doom9).

If I had to make a suggestion doom9 could move your post out of your thread and then merge the split post with the FFMPEG discussion thread. Thereby keeping the discussion (because for newbie's it's actually a good discussion when it's OnT), and cleaning your own thread of OffT.

This should resolve the overall conflict of your thread being anti-open source and pro-commerical.

Now for the rest of the conflict between DS, the rest of the x264 devs, DS supporters, and trolls I'm out of ideas. Aside from you committing ritual suicide (yes I'm joking) it's unlikely that it will ever really resolve itself as everyone is still incredibly emotional however maybe time will heal all.

[Guest]

I appreciate your balanced stance.

I totally have no problem with Doom9 editing any related threads in any way he wants. Not that he needs my permission, but he's a gentleman and wouldn't lightly step on people's toes.

[kieranrk]

Not that I care much about internet feuding but the post(s) by you and the other moderators show that you are deliberately evading the major point of contention even though you know exactly what the point DS is making. You are trying to turn it into a trivial issue about H.264 licensing when the fact is it's a problem with this forum that can only be dealt with through strong leadership.

[Sharktooth]

i have a suggestion to fix all the conflicts but it requires good will from both "sides".
that means neuron2 and dark_shikari apologizes with the people of this forum (and doom10 too) regardless of their egos or positions. coz, at the end of this story, the ones who loose its the doom9 and doom10 forums reputations and all the people frequenting them.
and after that the promise of burying the war axe and the promise to be nice each other and think twice (both of you) before posting.

[Bi11]

A thought experiment...

Dark Shikari and neuron2 make friends and all is well again with the world. Then one cloudy day...

n2: x264 is bs. (or some other opinion not based on facts)
ds: you're talking bs.

Now what?

Is up to ds to prove n2 wrong and then n2 verifies the proof? (which seems to be the stance taken by Doom9)

Or is it up to n2 to prove his statement correct and ds verifies the proof?

[Sharktooth]

that should not (or better... SHALL NOT) happen anymore. that's the meaning of "be nice each other" and "think twice (both of you) before posting".
it's not limited to now or the next days... it should be always like that coz we all are (or supposed to be) civil ppl.
the "be nice" part is also one of the forum rules.
provocative terms like "blatant violation" or "spread your FUD elsewhere" are not nice.
it not hard to be nice each other...

[Midzuki]

...

Tell me what to do.

...

How about retiring from the moderation team?

[Bi11]

"be nice to each other" is too subjective and vague to be of any use.

I propose a new moderator rule:

"Established members of the forum should be given the benefit of the doubt whenever conflicting statements are made between a moderator and one or more Established members. Thus, the onus is on moderators to prove their statements correct in face of continued protests by Established members, until almost all Established members involved in the debate are satisfied with the proof.
Non-established members are required to prove their statements correct if they continue to protest against the moderator's statements, until moderators, or at least Established members, are satisfied with the proof."

Established members would essentially be members who have made useful contributions to the forum's body of knowledge on a regular basis during the time they were/are active on the forum.
The definition of Established members could remain vague to allow for "flexibility of powers in good faith".

In a true community-driven forum I would expect such a rule to take the highest precedence, however if such a rule is ever implemented on this forum then I suspect it will have the lowest precedence.

[Sharktooth]

Bi11: you should discuss that with doom9

[Sharktooth]

How about retiring from the moderation team?
that is not appropriate nor helping...

[HJRodrigo]

Thank you doom9 for the post. I would assume this is all that people wanted to see. Things were blown out of proportion, when they could have been solved easily. I just hope your changes will prevent this from ever happening again :)

[stax76]

And this is the result...one mistake and it becomes open season on neuron2.

It can't be reduced to one mistake, there were various conflicts before which have led to this insurrection.

[Sharktooth]

yep and it is all going to be addressed and fixed if both neuron2 and D_S show the willingness to settle it (they know what im talking about).
now im going to sleep. however, stax, feel free to PM me if you want explanation. if my inbox is full, pm me on doom10.

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

yep and it is all going to be addressed and fixed if both neuron2 and D_S show the willingness to settle it (they know what im talking about).

I agree. By the looks of it, the conversation between DS and Doom9 seems to have concluded on a positive note. In terms of "getting things done," things have been done and are over with now. Much respect for Doom9 for stepping in and handling it in a fair manner. Doom9 shouldn't have to defend himself and his forum for being "anti-free-software" though because it's clear and obvious that this isn't true.

If this little feud will continue forever, that's quite unfortunate, but not all that bad. The rules have been revised, clarified, and publicized, on behalf of those who were disgruntled by what happened, to ensure that a similar incident won't happen again (assuming it's consistently enforced). So even if it doesn't fix the current situation, it'll help deter future situations like this.

[Doom9]

@Bi11: I will take that subject up in the thread on moderator rules.

[Kuukunen]

Jesus - what is going on here these days?
And this is the result...one mistake and it becomes open season on neuron2.
To give some context, it's not like that was the only thing that happened. There has been bad blood brewing for years, this just happened to be the last straw. (And it's not just "DS supporters", seriously.) For example the Doom10 forums were made already back in 2009. Of course it might be hard to see here with all the removed posts and fear of moderation for saying anything negative.

That said, I'm not arrogant enough to think my opinion even matters that much on the subject, but I'm happy to see some of the changes, especially about transparency. In addition I would wish that post/thread deletions were the last line of defense, so non-moderators can form their opinions too. Even if there's a reason for deleting (or hiding) the posts, it will just piss people off and create martyrs.