New Apple TV - Still no High Profile Support.

[iwod]

I mean, what is the point of H.264 if it isn't using High Profile. I am sure WebM will be better in less then a year time if we are sticking to Baseline or Main Profile.

Any one got ideas what they aren't using it? I Dont mind 720P only, but support only up to Main Profile really hurts.

[nurbs]

I'd wait a bit until someone has it for testing. Apple generally says their stuff only supports main profile even if high profile works without problems like on the iPad or iPhone 3GS & 4.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Simply put, their H.264 encoder doesn't support high profile (LOL!!!)

So, why advertise your hardware is capable of something if your own software does not? :)

Derek

[Ritsuka]

Exactly. It will play the same exact things as an iPhone 4 and an iPad.

[b66pak]

Simply put, their H.264 encoder doesn't support high profile (LOL!!!)

So, why advertise your hardware is capable of something if your own software does not? :)

Derek

720p shows from iTunes shop are High@L3.1...
_

[Blue_MiSfit]

They are??

Interesting. I hadn't really looked into things in a long while.

I wouldn't be surprised if they use a third party encoder like Telestream Episode or Rhozet Carbon Coder. I am fairly certain that the publicly available version of their H.264 encoder doesn't do high profile.

Derek

[BeyondTheEyes]

I believe Main profile added value over Baseline, for Apple, means essentially B slices. I am wondering if Apple available contents are using CABAC, which implies more decoding processing power and therefore less battery life for portable devices ( iPod, iPhone and iPad ). For the plugged-AppleTV the situation is different of course but I guess Apple is trying to homogenize its contents on the cloud. High profile is better than Main profile, but for what percentage of Apple contents, and for what gain ( vs. added complexity ), especially for 720p30 ? I guess that Apple engineers are not that stupid and that their choices are reasonable.

BTW, what about NetFlix contents ? My recollection is that NetFlix is streaming VC-1 content. Now that NetFlix is available on AppleTV, does this mean that NetFlix now supports H.264/AVC ?

[b66pak]

apple's full info for 720p:
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.1
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Muxing mode : Container profile=Unknown@3.1
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 43mn 53s
Bit rate : 3 808 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.172
Stream size : 1.17 GiB (89%)
Language : English
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
_

L.E.

another one:
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.1
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=25
Muxing mode : Container profile=Unknown@3.1
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 22mn 32s
Bit rate : 3 368 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.152
Stream size : 543 MiB (88%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
_

[Blue_MiSfit]

Interesting... IIRC, 8x8dct (high profile) adds almost nothing to decode complexity, while CABAC is absolutely huge. I can see this putting a substantial dent in iPad / iPhone 4 battery life (these can both play 720p from iTunes, right?), though that's obviously not a consideration for the Apple TV. I guess if you're trying to avoid having duplicate versions of the same 720p file on your CDN it makes sense to give up CABAC and bump up bitrate by 10-15% to compensate. That's a lot cheaper than having two 720p versions stored.

I'd be surprised if the Apple TV isn't using a specialized ASIC for video decode, and an ARM CPU - probably based on the A4.

Derek

[BeyondTheEyes]

I'd be surprised if the Apple TV isn't using a specialized ASIC for video decode, and an ARM CPU - probably based on the A4.

(...)on an iPhone, for example, H.264 videos play for up to 10 hours, while videos decoded in software play for less than 5 hours before the battery is fully drained.(...)

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

I guess that Apple TV, iPod Touch, iPhone 4 and iPad share the same H.264/AVC decoding IC.

[b66pak]

this is what my iPad play:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 56mn 32s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 303 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.144
Stream size : 1.31 GiB (91%)
Writing library : x264 core 104 r1698 c41b8f0
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=5 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=8 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=30 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=3303 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Language : English


Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 56mn 32s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 320 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 129 MiB (9%)
Language : English
_

[Blue_MiSfit]

And I'm sure your iPad can play up to 1080p with CABAC as well (but probably not for 10 hours). I think the question here is what Apple will be selling through the iTunes store.

Derek

[Reimar]

And I'm sure your iPad can play up to 1080p with CABAC as well (but probably not for 10 hours).

You can just as well argue that CABAC is not so much more complex in a hardware implementation and reduces bitrate (with memory accesses costing a lot of energy), so without any actual test numbers you could just as well argue CABAC will improve battery time :)

[Blue_MiSfit]

True enough! That's a good point.

[lnatan25]

Another Apple product, another fail. Business as usual at Apple. :rolleyes:
Why are people actually surprised? :rolleyes:

[lych_necross]

Its a shame that Apple TV doesn't officially support 1080p output. If they would've added the Apple app store, I might be interested (since its using iOS 4 now). As it stands now, Apple TV is very similar to Roku. I'm eager to see what Google TV will support.