Creating BD discs on DVDs -> I'm confused

[OvejaNegra]

Hi! As the title says.

After reading all the wikis i'm a little confused:

What is exactly BD9 / BD5 /AVCHD / AVCREC ?

My goal is put all my encodes in x264 in a way i can watch them on a BluRay player.

What kind of disc should i do? I'm confused!
Also, a common DVD can be trasfered to any of these? (keeping the AC3 audio and encoding the video to x264 preserving the normal DVD resolution 720 X 480)

If possible, please advice some tools for the process.

I'm interested in compatiblity with the players, not in fancy moving menus or anything like that.

Thanks and sorry for my english.

[Ghitulescu]

This thread belongs then to Newbies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bd9
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

For the rest of the questions, if one needs a single answer, that's multiAVCHD.

[OvejaNegra]

Ghitulescu:
(from the wikis)
"Despite the fact that the BD9 format has been adopted as part of the BD-ROM basic format, none of the existing Blu-ray player models supports it explicitly"

"AVCHD was originally developed as a high definition format for consumer tapeless camcorder"
"AVCREC uses BDAV container to record high definition content on conventional DVDs"
Then why AVCHD is more supported?
"Many Blu-Ray Disc players support AVCHD playback from DVDs"
But
"Although AVCHD shares many format similarities with Blu-ray Disc, it is not part of the Blu-Ray specification. Consequently, AVCHD-playback is not universally supported across all Blu-ray Disc players"
"AVCREC is a more economical and simple version of Blu-Ray video adapted for set-top device video recording, just like AVCHD is an economical version of Blu-Ray video adapted to video cameras"
"AVCREC Part3 V1.0 has been developed to enable recording and playback of BDAV (Blu-ray Audio/Visual) contents on DVD media"


In the end none of those is a standard?
AVCHD is more supported simply for luck?
YOUR player supports AVCHD?
The future players will support AVCHD or i will have more luck with BD9/5?

Yes i just downloaded multiAVCHD, im just about to start making all my stuff with that, simply i want to know Why AVCHD and not AVCREC or BD9 / 5.
I think is something like Divx, is not really a standard for DVD on CD, but is a standard bacause everybody is using it.

[Ghitulescu]

Well, being part of a standard generally means that is standardized :)

Secondly, wiki is not an authoritative source, as BD standards are not public and even if you buy them you're not allowed to make them public (quite logic ;)). And not explicitly disclosed doesn't mean incompatible.

Thirdly, if you have used search on this forum you'd have already found some good info, like which players play BD5/BD9, which players play AVCHD and what flavours thereof ....

and supposing you didn't search, nor happy with the results, then there's a third method that is failproof: use the software I mentioned and do yourself some tests with the players you may buy in your country (not sure that you can buy eg Pioneer BDP-LX70A even if I say it's compatible). It's cheaper to burn 4-5 DVDRs than to buy a player from abroad that turns to be incompatible :(

[OvejaNegra]

The software you mention is already my new best friend :)
There are no Blu ray players on my country (yet) but i can buy one in Russia or Spain (my uncle will do) i can't tell him about many complicated stuff, but i can tell him: hey check if it has the AVCHD / AVCREC logo, buy that one!
The thing is, what "format" will have more success / acceptation on the future (so my encodes will be usefull if i buy another player).

What will be the safest bet? BD5/9 -> AVCHD (maybe) -> AVCREC -> DivxHD (well, only for single clips, not an entire functional disc)

Thanks

[Ghitulescu]

Lots of people bet on HD-DVD (or, better said, dreamed of having HD-DVD instead of BD) against BD, well, we know the answer for a while ...

[setarip_old]

@OvejaNegra

Hi!

Just tell your uncle to look for thr "Blu-ray" logo...

[A.Fenderson]

AVCREC is for real-time recording in high def, don't worry about that one.
I would recommend getting an AVCHD-compatible Blu-ray player--that's the logo to look for. That way, you know that as a minimum it will be able to play full-HD content you create (using either MultiAVCHD or BD-Rebuilder) from burned DVDs, and may even play full-disc backups of Blu-rays (but not necessarily).
Good luck getting your player!

[Ghitulescu]

No advice can replace the actual testing.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Ghitulescu:
AVCHD is more supported simply for luck?
YOUR player supports AVCHD?
The future players will support AVCHD or i will have more luck with BD9/5?

AVCHD is more supported because it's pushed by Sony and Panasonic that were between the creators of the BD specifications, basically every players made by them support AVCHD (actually even TVs claim that they "support" it but at least my Bravia actually simply play the Transport Stream, it doesn't show any menu or subtitles but maybe other TVs behave differently); that said there are quite a lot of differentiations on how AVCHD is handled by various players (supported features and required structure, you can hardly call it a "standard" or at least it's not implemented as a standard by many player producers), as it was suggested your best chance is multiAVCHD (anyway I never had too much problems since I use my PS3 that handle AVCHD quite simply, folders outputted by tsMuxer can be directly used and I use multiAVCHD only if I want some menu).
If you're making an AVCHD remember that if you want to burn it into a DVD you must give it "BD" style long filenames and the BDMV and CERTIFICATE must be putted at the root (it's also required to use the correct UDF filesystem, IMGBurn will automatically prompt you to do so and to make a dummy CERTIFICATE if you didn't have one) while if you want to play it from USB devices it must have 8.3 filenames and the two folders must be placed inside the AVCHD folder (and in some players that folder must be placed in the PRIVATE one placed at the root of your device), AVCHD Manager (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143920) can be easily used to convert between the two structures with the AVCHDMe and AVCHDMe-Undo commands.
All the above is true for the PS3, I'm not sure if other BD players can read AVCHD written with 8.3 filenames or if they require the BD-style structure as well.

Also, a common DVD can be trasfered to any of these? (keeping the AC3 audio and encoding the video to x264 preserving the normal DVD resolution 720 X 480)
I suppose that you can even keep the original MPEG-2 depending on your player (some accept codecs that are part of the BD standard but they're not part of AVCHD); if you're rencoding with x264 (e.g to make an "HQ" DVD-9 to DVD-5 backup) use High Profile@Level 3.1 and keep the reference frame count low (I'm not sure about the maximum allowed value) and if you use B-pyramids set them to strict. Also keep in mind that AVCHD is required to support only the 720x480/576 resolution for SD content so don't crop/resize your video.

[Ghitulescu]

AVCHD from Sony is not AVCHD from Panasonic. There is a common kernel, but the gear may reject AVCHD disks created for another sub-standard.

Logos and stuff for BD is just marketing now. It doesn't matter what says one or the other in this forum, BD specs are changing (most old players were required to upgrade the FW in order to see AVATAR, before they were still Bluray compatible) and it will change in the future too.

Just do a testing with a custom disk and be happy. And in case it does what you like, resist hard to upgrade it - buy yourself a bluray burner and play only the copies of the movies you own. It's legal in most countries, apparently in the US too.

[A.Fenderson]

My goal is put all my encodes in x264 in a way i can watch them on a BluRay player.
...
I'm interested in compatiblity with the players, not in fancy moving menus or anything like that.


@OvejaNegra:
Here's what it simply boils down to:
Presumably you don't have (nor have easy access to purchase) a Blu-ray disc burner, but you do have a DVD burner, therefore:
If you want to be guaranteed to be able to watch high-def content you burn to a DVD, get a player with the AVCHD logo. It may requiring experimentation and tweaking during the encoding/structuring/burning process, but it will work at some point unless the player is defective.
Here's a link to the official AVCHD page which lists supported formats (http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html).
If the player you get does not have the AVCHD logo, it may work, but there is no guarantee.

[Ghitulescu]

I think you better get a multimedia tank or a networked mediaplayer than a bluray player. Most of them do however support menus (especially for DVDs) as a bonus.

[OvejaNegra]

"BD specs are changing (most old players were required to upgrade the FW in order to see AVATAR, before they were still Bluray compatible) and it will change in the future too"

O - MY -GOD!

How you update the firmware?
From the manufacturer 's page?

And if the client is not experienced enough in technology to make the update?
No more BDplayer?

Xcuse me for my lack of knowledge, what is a multimedia tank?
A decent pc with slim-cute case and a remote control to operate windows media center and a video card with DVI/HDMI output (like my pc)? or something like that? (the google results are a little wierd so i ask to you).

PD: a blu ray unit for pc will be able to copy/rip/play future discs using software like DVDfab?

thanks for the suggestions

[setarip_old]

@OvejaNegra

Hi!

a blu ray unit for pc will be able to copy/rip/play future discs using software like DVDfab?Based on the way things are currently, yes - and if you want to view only the COPIES, it is highly unlikely you'll ever need a firmware update for your standalone player.

For example, my backup copy (made by MakeMKV) of the U.S.version of "Avatar" plays perfectly well on an older SONY DVP S360 standalone player that has had NO firmware updates applied since I purchased it (about 2 years ago, I believe). It also plays perfectly well under my ancient and intentionally not updated PowerDVD v.7.3 ...

[Ghitulescu]

How you update the firmware?
From the manufacturer 's page?
How about a little google for this ;)
And if the client is not experienced enough in technology to make the update? Her/his problem.
PD: a blu ray unit for pc will be able to copy/rip/play future discs using software like DVDfab?
You probably asked this completely innocent* :) ....
There's no guarantee ... There are many tools that disappeared** (dvdecrypter, clone dvd to name a few), the commercial ones (you find in the shelves) can only copy unprotected DVDs and BDs, who knows how long AnyDVD & Co. may last ...

*The reason why copy protections are there is that studios want that nobody can copy them, or at least people like you (no offense) that have little knowledge what a BD is and how it functions (they can live with 10% piracy rate, but not with 90%). If any kid on the street can copy the last Blockbuster by downloading any software from the internet, while decent people cannot play it while legally bought, now that's a problem.
**Of course you can find them today, but the copy protections evolved since and they cannot correctly rip newer generations of DVDs.

PS: You may want also to check the Cinavia thread, to see that even if one copies the BD it might be possible that it cannot play :devil:

[OvejaNegra]

You probably asked this completely innocent

Yes, sorry, not an attempt to break any rule.

My worries are that in possible near/far future i might end with a new disc that cannot be played on my player.
But maybe with my computer and powrdvd i can, or create a playable backup on AVCHD

Her/his problem
NOP, the client will think that the player is broken and buy a new one :)

[Ghitulescu]

You probably asked this completely innocent* :) ....
There's no guarantee ... There are many tools that disappeared** (dvdecrypter, clone dvd to name a few), the commercial ones (you find in the shelves) can only copy unprotected DVDs and BDs, who knows how long AnyDVD & Co. may last ...

*The reason why copy protections are there is that studios want that nobody can copy them, or at least people like you (no offense) that have little knowledge what a BD is and how it functions (they can live with 10% piracy rate, but not with 90%). If any kid on the street can copy the last Blockbuster by downloading any software from the internet, while decent people cannot play it while legally bought, now that's a problem.

Yes, sorry, not an attempt to break any rule.No, I meant something else, reread the passage :)
My worries are that in possible near/far future i might end with a new disc that cannot be played on my player.
But maybe with my computer and powrdvd i can, or create a playable backup on AVCHD Reread that passage. There's no guarantee, the copy protections are there so people cannot copy them.
NOP, the client will think that the player is broken and buy a new one :)
Just perfect for everyone, except for the buyer. :)
No, a message will prompt the buyer to update himself/herself the player (if this is not possible automatic - through BD-live extensions).
A new player means another product sold but not only, it also means a product fulfilling the newest legal contrains is sold. Besides, the reliability of the new hardware is anyway extremely low, so one will be forced anyway to dump the player after 1-2 years (they last enough to cover the warranty) - a repairment costs more than a new product.

Bottom line: enjoy the moment!

[OvejaNegra]

Bottom line: enjoy the moment!
reliability of the new hardware is anyway extremely low, so one will be forced anyway to dump the player after 1-2 years

Could not agree more.
My old Sony Betamax and Samsung VHS both still alive, ahh the old times.