PAL VHS capture [Archive]

Frank K Abbott

3rd July 2010, 08:35

Ok so here's my problem. I have a PAL VHS that was recorded in the early 90's I believe. I have a PAL VCR but I don't have a PAL capture card. First off I don't know what capture cards to look at or what to look for that is capable of accepting PAL. My main goal is to capture with VDubMod to a LAG. Anything less than 80GB should be fine I think. No post-processing or anything during the capture. Just saving straight to LAG. After that I think it needs a fielddeinterlace maybe and then after some heavy scripting ill encode at 25fps with HCEnc and do a DGPulldown to 29.970. Now I know this might come in the category of "breaking the "what's best"" rule but I really need to know what kind of stuff I should be looking for and what is *considered* the elite of PAL/NTSC capture cards. Any help is really appreciated. I want this to turn out GREAT and that's why I'm asking you guy's adivice. Anything under $300 should be ok.

dansrfe

4th July 2010, 08:09

I'm in the same sort of situation. Can't find the right capture card myself :(

Sharc

4th July 2010, 11:21

What about Hauppauge (WIN-TV HVR-xxx)?
These cards normally come with Composite Video and S-Video inputs for connecting to external VHS recorders/players.
For the capturing I use VirtualVCR as it works well with WDM drivers.
http://virtualvcr.sourceforge.net/

manolito

4th July 2010, 12:37

IMO you will not see much benefit from an expensive capture card compared to a cheap BT8x8 based card if your source is VHS. If you really want to spend big bucks you should study this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1356196#post1356196

In my experience there are more important things than a 3D comb filter when capturing from VHS. VCRs mostly do not have stable timing, so a VCR with a TBC might be necessary. Good mechanical alignment of the VCR is also essential.

If you only got this one tape to convert then I would have it digitized by a pro service...

Cheers
manolito

Frank K Abbott

5th July 2010, 07:32

I really don't care for hardware encoding or on-the-fly post-processing of any sort. My main aim is to get the VHS video stream untouched into vdubmod or virtualvcr and have it save straight to lagarith. I want to take care of all the vhs-related artifacts and the other standard stuff solely with AviSynth. Basically any card that does its main job right of transporting the video AS IS from what is being outputted from the VCR.

royia

5th July 2010, 07:51

Is there any recommendation for a USB Stick which converts S-Video and works with Virtual DUB?

Ghitulescu

5th July 2010, 08:32

Frank K Abbott

5th July 2010, 08:52

What card would you suggest for receiving, interpreting, and transporting the signal as close to what is being outputted from the VCR? I care solely about transparency from the VCR output into my PC.

royia

5th July 2010, 09:01

I can't find the Pinnacle 500 on their site.
What I found is Dazzle DVD Recorder Plus.

The question is, does it have WDM drivers which are compatible to Virtual DUB?

pandy

5th July 2010, 09:17

royia

5th July 2010, 09:30

ANY PCI or PCIe card shall be sufficient - CVBS input is multistandard - all additional processing can be made offline. USB is less reliable than Firewire (IEEE-1394) so if portability is key IEEE-1394 cards are better than USB

Are there some S-Video + Audio to Firewire connectors (Just like USB just with Firewire)?

Could you recommend something which works with Virtual DUB?

pandy

6th July 2010, 11:21

It is very difficult something that will work for sure (drivers) with VirtualDub "Most Firewire (DV) devices do not provide a VFW driver, and thus cannot be used by VirtualDub at all." - http://www.virtualdub.org/docs_capture.html.

http://www.grassvalley.com/products/advc55

http://www.adstechnologies.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3&zenid=59699c1713b58c814b07264b39091575

Both support Adobe software - capture can be made in one of those apps or anything that support FW - VD can be used in next step.

Sharc

6th July 2010, 19:24

As I said before: Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1200 in conjunction with VirtualVCR works perfectly for me.
This card is now outdated I guess, but I would assume that the newer models WinTV HVR-1250 or higher will do the job as well (with S-Video and CompositeVideo plus stereo audio input jacks).
See for example http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1250.html

Ghitulescu

6th July 2010, 19:28

... what is the recommended capture card for simply transferring video without messing it up during the transfer from vcr to pc? The cheapest one that is guaranteed to do its job of simply transferring 100% RIGHT ... Just a simple transfer to pc, untouched form the vcr.
I think you got it all wrong. There's no untouched or 100% right when discussing analog. But there's messing up ;).

A good card would be one that does has the capture window fit to PAL line length, does not alter the colours and is able to cope with some signal irregularities. Such a card is expensive (in the range of at least 3 figures). A 100% right capture card would be a firewire card that gets its input from a DV/D8 camcorder, because the signal would be 100% the original one.

However, the most important thing here is the VCR, if its good enough it would prevent some faults really really hard to remove/correct in software.

I suggest: a S-VHS VCR with TBC (full frame if possible), if not at least an external TBC (it's not tuberculosis ;)), and a Brooktree capture card (has a good software support). Connexions in S-Video (Hosiden) with shortest cables available.

Have you read already the Capture guide (sticky)?

royia

6th July 2010, 21:47

dansrfe

7th July 2010, 03:20

Ghitulescu

7th July 2010, 08:11

You can't be serious.

pandy

7th July 2010, 10:33

For some reason I can't find the (Hosiden) S-Video Cable you refer to for purchase anywhere online :( Also I was looking into the JVC HR-S9911U S-VCR but that isn't for sale anywhere as well :(. Looks like they discontinued it. Same thing for the Brooktree capture card, I can't find it anywhere :(

Please...

any S-Video cable is ok
any S-VHS VCR is ok (for VHS any VHS VCR is sufficient)
Brooktree was bought by Conexant many years ago so currently any capture card with Conexant is ok (also Philips IC are ok so ...)

lordsmurf

7th July 2010, 11:28

1. No software in the world can correct what a "broken"/defective hardware produces. Get a good VCR, there are some good info at lordsmurf's page (for NTSC world). Get a TBC too (search this forum and you'll find there's no [good] software-TBC).

2. I would never trust an USB stick for capturing a VHS tape, mainly because it's USB, secondly because it's a stick. However, some guys can swear on Pinnacle 500 (uncompressed), which is BTW not a stick.
I think most people would be surprised to learn at least 50% of what I do is PAL, not NTSC. :p

The analog basics, and digital basics, all carry over to all formats. Even SECAM. You can find most of my information at digitalFAQ.com (http://www.digitalfaq.com/) and in the forum (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/).

In terms of USB sticks, the only one I can suggest is the Tevion from Aldi, or the ATI 600 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Fie%3DUTF8%26x%3D0%26ref_%3Dnb%5Fsb%5Fnoss%26y%3D0%26field-keywords%3Dati%2520600%2520usb%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Daps&tag=thdifa-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957).

Calling those Pinnacle boxes "crap" would be an insult to turds. Same for Dazzle cards or anything else sold in Best Buy, Walmart or office supply stores. Simply dreadful.

For a quality job, on just one tape, the right suggestion is to use a service. Learning the intricacies of PAL, and spending $$$ on the good hardware, is ill advised.

Any S-VHS VCR is not okay for best quality. Any s-video cable is not okay for best quality. That's simply not true. Some S-VHS VCRs are worse than good consumer VHS decks (JVC 2901 S-VHS vs Toshiba 6-head VHS, for example.) Flimsy unshielded s-video cables can have interference.

BT8x8 cards are notorious for their distortion of aspect ratios, dropped frames and audio sync issues. I would not suggest those cards to anybody other than skilled users in 2010. (Or unless you're going to be given hand-holding guidance by somebody.)

There's really not much difference between USB2 and Firewire 400, aside from sustained transfer. Most video captures will still fall below the dips in the non-sustained USB2. Limiting the USB devices on the system, when capturing, is a common tip (mostly for the external USB hard drives, not mice/etc).

Some errors MUST be fixed in the analog domain, for best results (or even ANY results). Avisynth cannot fix everything -- that's just not accurate.

Note that I've been doing this for more than a decade now.

Hope my insight has helped. :)

Ghitulescu

7th July 2010, 12:33

Yes, of course you're right.

I mentioned BT8x8 just for the reason that it appears to have the best software support of all cards I know, both (especially) freeware and commercial. Besides, A/V can go asynch for most capture cards I know, and the OP didn't want to spend more than 300$, which limits himself to A/V-desynch-prone cards (maybe some luck on eBay, who knows). The only workable solution to a reliable A/V-synch is to use external tact-generators and let the other gear synch to its clock (such a piece of gear cost alone more than 300$, plus there are no consumer gear that can synch to an external clock).

Now I'm really mean: a slight AR problem is less noticeable than a "pulldown of PAL to 29.97" even with "heavy scripting" enabled. Besides, the issue of AR (DAR/PAR) is not automatically solved on a PC even if the card does provide a correct one, depending on the use of the file.

I join the chorus of people that advise the OP to use the services of a profi lab if he's a "rookie", unless he uses this opportunity to learn how to do it himself.

dansrfe

7th July 2010, 16:13

I still sort of want to learn how to do it myself if possible. :o The thing with a prof. service is that I can't really trust they fixed everything. Especially where I live I can bet all the services use cheap converter boxes to make it NTSC which just screws it up even further.

pandy

7th July 2010, 17:31

Any S-VHS VCR is not okay for best quality. Any s-video cable is not okay for best quality. That's simply not true. Some S-VHS VCRs are worse than good consumer VHS decks (JVC 2901 S-VHS vs Toshiba 6-head VHS, for example.) Flimsy unshielded s-video cables can have interference.

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

Rule 12

Any means free from fault design - You can state that equipment 1xxxxx1 is best however You can't say that 1xxxxx1 in poor conditions will be better than worse (in terms of parameters) 2yyyyy2 but with/in excellent shape.

Cables - if they not meet parameters (eg they degrade signal) they are not S-Video cables - think this is obvious for reasonable people.

There's really not much difference between USB2 and Firewire 400, aside from sustained transfer. Most video captures will still fall below the dips in the non-sustained USB2. Limiting the USB devices on the system, when capturing, is a common tip (mostly for the external USB hard drives, not mice/etc).

FW is AV interface - difference between USB and Firewire is like difference between MS Windows and RTOS

Some errors MUST be fixed in the analog domain, for best results (or even ANY results). Avisynth cannot fix everything -- that's just not accurate.

but some errors can be really expensive to fix (both in analog/digital domain) - only from user depend that cost is acceptable or not - instead of buying equipment maybe better is rent equipment, instead loosing money maybe cheaper is pay for professional studio transfer.

Note that I've been doing this for more than a decade now.

So maybe better is rent Yours skills than reinvent the wheel?

Ghitulescu

7th July 2010, 18:36

Rule 12

Any means free from fault design - You can state that equipment 1xxxxx1 is best however You can't say that 1xxxxx1 in poor conditions will be better than worse (in terms of parameters) 2yyyyy2 but with/in excellent shape.
Lordsmurf did observe the Rule 12 second §: he was not asking for nor providing the best, he said what is not best. There's no rule preventing one to ask for or to provide the worst solution.:p

Cables - if they not meet parameters (eg they degrade signal) they are not S-Video cables - think this is obvious for reasonable people.
These resonable people should learn some physics in the school. While is not wise to spend 1500$ for a pair of loudspeaker cables, getting a good cable (not what is usually sold in Istanbul Bazaar) is a matter of obviousness. Even with digital signals a better cable can provide an advantage. Most cheap A/V cables simply do not fulfil the requirements of impedance, which failure can force the output and the input etages to work outside their optimal parameters. Also a bad impedance cable generates shaddows (reflections). Bad impedance also means lots of signal losses, which in the analog world is literally an irreversible loss.

I would also like to point you to the fact (it's a fact, unfortunatelly), that most audio devices one buy at Walmart or similar shops (and in the same price league) still meet the parameters for HiFi yet their quality is next to [cenzored] :p.
FW is AV interface - difference between USB and Firewire is like difference between MS Windows and RTOSIndeed, that was also my original post.
but some errors can be really expensive to fix (both in analog/digital domain) - only from user depend that cost is acceptable or not - instead of buying equipment maybe better is rent equipment, instead loosing money maybe cheaper is pay for professional studio transfer.It depends, if one is lucky enough to find a studio that upgrades [or is in faliment] s/he could get used professional gear at very reasonable prices.

Besides, analog is a question of compromise, not only in terms of quality but also in terms of money. One needs really to sacrifice something in reward for something else. It was never a win:win situation.

Frank K Abbott

7th July 2010, 18:50

lordsmurf

8th July 2010, 05:35

I am technically willing to spend any amount of money if that's what it takes to get this capture done correctly. I just need some suggestions and guidance as to what equipment I should use and something that is available to buy online or in-store.
Then you're in luck, as I laid most of this out long ago. You need three basic items:

1. High end VCR. Read the VCR Buying Guide (S-VHS, D-VHS, Professional) (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/vcr-buying-guide-1567.html)
Look at either a JVC 7965 or 8965, or the PAL equiv AG-1980
Expect to spent maybe $400-500 total, and you'll likely have to import from UK or Germany.

2. Timebase corrector. Read this: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/tbc-time-base-2251.html)
Look at the AVT-8710 or CTB-100, as my suggestion. Budget $225 here.

3. Quality capture card. There's a number of recent discussions on the best PAL card solutions at http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/showthread.php/tbc-time-base-2251.html and I've replied in several of the threads. My suggestion is for the internal AGP ATI All In Wonder series, which are known for their quality PAL capturing. (I actually have two extra cards I want to sell, but I can't find the purple boxes for input. Hope to find them next month.) Next option is the ATI 600 USB, maybe the 650 USB. Blackmagic cards are fine, but cost more. All of those are NTSC+PAL cards, with ability to do MPEG, uncompressed or lossless capturing. Matrox codecs are free now, too, so I'd run with one of those, if not using HuffYUV or going direct to MPEG-2 DVD-Video. The ATI cards can get away with a budget under $100, but the Blackmagic will set you back a bit more.

Further analog filter would include audio mixers with at least 3-4 EQ, proc amps, detail enhancers, res boosters. But that's all optional (and expensive) gear, beyond the base setup.

That's really all I have for you. Good luck. :readfaq:

Any means free from fault design
The JVC HR-S2901 was hardly "free from fault".

Cables - if they not meet parameters (eg they degrade signal) they are not S-Video cables - think this is obvious for reasonable people.
This just isn't true. It should be, but it isn't. I come across crap s-video cables all the time. It's usually the ones that come free in the box. I've seen them pick up all kinds of noise, from FM to electrical.

FW is AV interface - difference between USB and Firewire is like difference between MS Windows and RTOS
No, it's not an "AV interface". I'm going to be lazy and cut-and-paste from wikipedia:
The IEEE 1394 interface is a serial bus interface standard for high-speed communications and isochronous real-time data transfer, frequently used by personal computers, as well as in digital audio, digital video, automotive, and aeronautics applications.

It's certainly used for AV, but so is USB. Even CAT5e and CAT6 can be used for AV. It's just a carrier wire, a data transfer.

but some errors can be really expensive to fix (both in analog/digital domain) - only from user depend that cost is acceptable or not - instead of buying equipment maybe better is rent equipment, instead loosing money maybe cheaper is pay for professional studio transfer.
Yep. This is definitely the kind of project I suggest somebody give to a service or freelancer. It's a lot of learning and expensive just for a couple of tapes. And then the amateur will still not do as good a job as the pro, even if he has the same hardware and software. Experience counts for something!

So maybe better is rent Yours skills than reinvent the wheel?
I do "rent" my skills. Video is what I do for a living.

The thing with a prof. service is that I can't really trust they fixed everything. Especially where I live I can bet all the services use cheap converter boxes to make it NTSC which just screws it up even further.
You're wise to avoid the local goobers who want to get rich quick with their Walmart / Best Buy investments.

You'll find the best services are online, not in strip malls or wherever. Most of them operate from private facilities, too, with all business done in person (for companies/studios, with meetings at the company/studio) or via mail (for general consumers, if they even service consumers). The facilities are basically locked down to personnel only, because of the type of work being handled there (law enforcement forensic work, unannounced studio projects, etc). Most of them don't even need to advertise, their services are word-of-mouth in the industry.

Frank K Abbott

8th July 2010, 06:22

Is there any particular professional service you can recommend preferably located in the US? I'm still going to have a look at your suggestions however :) Thanks!

lordsmurf

8th July 2010, 06:31

I've sent you a short list of referrals via PM. That's not something I want to post.
Thanks.

Frank K Abbott

8th July 2010, 06:45

For the AG-1980 I found:

First (http://www.nextsteprecycling.org/store/audio-video/w0005000037-panasonic-ag-1980-svhs-professional-)
Second (http://imagine41.com/panasonic-ag-1980-s-vhs-vcr-desktop-editor.html?___store=english_11271901265)

Why is this one: First (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/185957-REG/Datavideo_TBC_1000_TBC_1000_Single_Channel_Time.html) so expensive vs this one: Second (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276891-REG/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_AVT_8710_Multi_Standard_Time_Base.html)

And this is the best deal I found on the ATi 650 USB (http://www.frys.com/product/6124759) I guess I'll have to wait until it comes back into stock :D

lordsmurf

8th July 2010, 06:52

AG-1980 is NTSC, not PAL. You want the PAL equiv models. Read the link I gave you.

TBC-1000 has distro amp inside it, four outputs, more than a base TBC.

The ATI 650 won't be back in stock, it's discontinued.
Read this thread about the ATI 600 (http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/showthread.php/vhs-capture-device-2300.ht). Best bet on good card for low price.

Frank K Abbott

8th July 2010, 06:58

So either JVC SR-V10E / SR-V10, JVC HR-S7965EK, or JVC HR-S8965EK?

pandy

8th July 2010, 10:20

This just isn't true. It should be, but it isn't. I come across crap s-video cables all the time. It's usually the ones that come free in the box. I've seen them pick up all kinds of noise, from FM to electrical.

Some of things that You describe are very frequently related to the poor grounding, improper construction of equipment etc - cables are important but they can't auto-magically solve all problems.

No, it's not an "AV interface". I'm going to be lazy and cut-and-paste from wikipedia:
The IEEE 1394 interface is a serial bus interface standard for high-speed communications and isochronous real-time data transfer, frequently used by personal computers, as well as in digital audio, digital video, automotive, and aeronautics applications.

It's certainly used for AV, but so is USB. Even CAT5e and CAT6 can be used for AV. It's just a carrier wire, a data transfer.

"isochronous real-time data transfer"

So this is good for AV - USB-2 is flaky design - good for replace RS-232 or similar interfaces but not good enough to replace PCI.

Ghitulescu

9th July 2010, 21:08

So either JVC SR-V10E / SR-V10, JVC HR-S7965EK, or JVC HR-S8965EK?

I would pick the SR.

lordsmurf

9th July 2010, 21:46

Those three JVC VCRs are basically identical units.

Video Dude

10th July 2010, 22:17

The JVC HR-S2901 was hardly "free from fault".

@lordsmurf
I was able to get a brand new factory boxed JVC HR-S2902. I know its very basic and does not have a TBC. But what is wrong with this model and what should I look out for?

dansrfe

10th July 2010, 23:23

^ Where did you buy it?

Video Dude

11th July 2010, 01:40

^ Where did you buy it?
Amazon, but it was a few years ago. I stockpiled VCRs when they were no longer sold in stores and hard to find new online.

lordsmurf

11th July 2010, 11:37

The transports are flimsy. Watch for it to go out of alignment, and start to "eat tapes".
Everything about those decks was cheap.

Ghitulescu

12th July 2010, 08:14

Those three JVC VCRs are basically identical units.

I don't know about JVC, despite I have 2 of them. In case of Panny however, even if they feature eg the same chassis, there are differences. At least in Europe. From what I learned, within the US, the difference between a profi gear and the same consumer one lies mostly in the warranty (they tell to the profi that the profi model is different, so they can charge him more, and to the normal enduser that the consumer gear is exactly the same as the profi one, just in a different color, maybe with cinch instead of BNC etc. etc., so they would increase the sales on both ends - they circulate the latter as an "insider tip"). They couldn't do the same in Germany, where the videoclubs are extremely influential and well informed, even the resellers usually told people both the advantages and disadvantages of a certain model.

That's why I said to pick up the SR model. Should they be identical, as you say, then it doesn't matter.

PS: in my English, basically identical is called very/extremely similar. A thing is either identical (100%) to another or not.