pal movies are generally always shorter than ntsc.. do they play at a differen pitch?

[extent]

Comparing dvds that have identical content, ive noticed pal movies are shorter than ntsc movies. Ive always wondered if they also play at a different pitch, or if this is usually never corrected at all (i say 'corrected' if the ntsc version is the original)? I assume probably not, since the viewer is never likely to notice?

Ive always bought pal unless the ntsc film is genuinely has more content, but its hard to find out without watching. websites such as dvdcompare will list a films length, but if a pal film is usually shorter anyway, its impossible to work out if this is due to extra content in the ntsc version or not

thanks for any info! :)

[Video Dude]

In most cases, 24fps NTSC films are sped up to 25fps when converted to PAL. The audio is sped up with the video so there will be a change in pitch. The speed difference is 4% which results in the PAL disc having a shorter duration, but all frames are still there.

[Manao]

The audio is sped up with the video so there will be a change in pitchAudio speed up doesn't necessarily imply pitch change. There are algorithms that prevents changing the pitch when changing the audio speed. The question should be, are those algorithms used in the case of PAL <-> NTSC speed conversions - and I don't know.

[Ghitulescu]

A lil'bit of info like where are you from would have helped too. There are version compare web sites, simply using 24/25 or viceversa does not say a thing whether the NTSC has scene A but removed scene B and the PAL has scene B but removed scene A (different censorship, different FSK (indicates the recommended age of the viewer, in DE) versions). NTSC R1 (US) are different from NTSC R2 (Japan), and PAL R2 (UK) is different from PAL R2 (DE), from PAL R2 (FR/IT), from PAL R2 (ES) and from PAL R4 (AU).

So saying just PAL vs. NTSC is a bit of "pauschal" argumentation.

For the second question, there are several methods of identifying the audio pitch change: have the Soundtrack CD, have the NTSC version. But changing the pitch is easily done now (you'll find this technique even in 50€-price-range audio gear), and half of the PAL countries perform dubbing (DE/AT/CH,FR/BE,IT,ES,HU,CZ,PL,TR etc.) or VOA (RU).

[Manao]

half of the PAL countries perform dubbingNote that for film content, the dubbing is still done at film fps, ie 24fps. So the fact that it is dubbed won't matter for the problem at hand.

[Ghitulescu]

Oh, yes, because you cannot compare with the NTSC version.:p Or maybe Jack Nicholson is kind enough to speak German or Hungarian?

[2Bdecided]

Ive always bought pal unless the ntsc film is genuinely has more content, but its hard to find out without watching. websites such as dvdcompare will list a films length, but if a pal film is usually shorter anyway, its impossible to work out if this is due to extra content in the ntsc version or notI think you could divide the PAL duration by 0.959 to get the "speed corrected" PAL duration - that would show if the NTSC version had any more real content.

Cheers,
David.

[dansrfe]

How do you know if a PAL version of a dvd has the pitch correction already applied to the audio track? If it does, should it theoretically sound the same as the NTSC version?

[Mug Funky]

in most cases, pitch correction is done.

this means the sound wont be any higher, but the tempo will be a bit faster

pitch correction may not be done on older titles or some restorations done in PAL, as they most likely would have the optical sound and picture transferred at the same time (and telecine machines typically don't have advanced audio functions - they just play at the speed you tell them to and the audio comes as it comes).

a best case scenario is where the facility that did the sound mix on the film outputs a 24fps, 25fps and 23.976fps version of the mix - this allows pitch correction to be done on isolated mono tracks and to preserve 5.1 spatial placement without sounds interfering with each other. this is done on most PAL movies with enough budget, but probably not many US or natively NTSC countries, because they just don't think about the rest of the world.

[shakey]

I have found that with TV box sets, they generally don't bother to do the pitch correction, so whenever I rip them I slow the video back down to 23.9blah fps and slow down the audio, so that my ripped copy is as it was originally filmed.

[Ghitulescu]

What is a TV box set?

[kypec]

What is a TV box set?
I guess what OP means is something like this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frasier-1-11-Complete-Kelsey-Grammer/dp/B002D3ZJD0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1277976660&sr=1-1) for example. All seasons of popular TV series packaged in one piece.

[Ghitulescu]

I have found that with TV box sets, they generally don't bother to do the pitch correction, so whenever I rip them I slow the video back down to 23.9blah fps and slow down the audio, so that my ripped copy is as it was originally filmed.

I guess... All seasons of popular TV series packaged in one piece.

Then it's completely false what he does, as most series are shot with TV cameras (60i bzw. 50i) and not shot on film (24fps). This is why I asked, to be sure ... :p From the series I have only Columbo was shot on film (well, an episode is usually as long as a short movie anyway).

[2Bdecided]

I assume he's only doing it with TV series which are 25p in PAL countries, and from the US originally.

You can't simply slow down 50i in this way and have something in a widely compatible standard.

Most 25p European series are shot at 25fps (or 50i and then badly deinterlaced to give a fake film effect!), though I've heard it said that some HD originated shows are shot at 24p even in Europe. I'm not convinced. Even then, they're meant to be broadcast at 25p (no widespread 24p broadcast in Europe yet) - so it would be wrong to slow them down.

Cheers,
David.

[Manao]

as most series are shot with TV camerasHuh ? You haven't watched TV for 10 years then ? Or do you only watch reruns from some old series. Basically, since 2000, most "serious" (ie, with a budget) US/canadian series have been shot in film.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I have several of the same movies on both NTSC and PAL DVD's...

All of the PAL DVD's (that contain progressive frames) have shorter run times than their NTSC DVD equivalents, ie: the audio and video streams on the PAL DVD's are simply speeded up!

[dansrfe]

I don't understand one thing. If one is ripping their own PAL dvd's for archival purposes then isn't it easy enough to just bring it back to 24fps by using Assumefps(24) and slowing down the audio and subs? Keeping aside optimum refresh rate multiples, if the PAL source is indeed just a speedup while capturing the film print then isn't it easy enough to just bring it back to 24fps with a simple Assumefps(24)?

[Mug Funky]

one rule isn't going to fit all.

here's some examples:

- TV series for PAL territories. shot on film with camera clocked at 25fps
- TV series shot in PAL land, but intended for an international audience (like The Pacific, for example). probably shot at 24fps, but can vary depending on where it's posted.
- very old TV series from the US, transferred for PAL land. this will probably be sped up without pitch correction, but if the source was NTSC and IVTC'd at the authoring house, it will probably be pitch corrected. could be either.
- TV series shot on video. don't touch the audio on this.

my advice - if you know for sure how the audio should be, treat it as you wish. if you don't know, leave it at the speed it's at. a good way to confirm is if you happen to have a soundtrack album you can compare a known part with the DVD.

btw, series on film hasn't just been a 2000's thing. it originated in the 60's with I Love Lucy where video went live to air, and a separate film camera captured it for timeshifting - that show also invented the concept of the re-run for this very reason.

almost every US TV series is shot on film. certainly more that are than aren't. these days it's moving toward digital film like RED and HDCAM variants.

[Midzuki]

Just for the record:
the only "international" TV series I have watched thus far that was NOT originally recorded on film is "Starlost". To the best of my memory, everything between "Thunderbirds" and "Mortal Kombat: Conquest" has been shot on film.

[dansrfe]

I'm talking about a movie which was definitely shot for audience on both sides of the world and most probably had very good equipment and knowledgeable people working on authoring and transferring during the dvd-making phase. The dvd I have seems to be a very nice and very clean transition, purely progressive 25 fps stream. I just wish there was a way to guarantee that it was simply a speedup from a 24fps film print.

[Mug Funky]

transfer and authoring don't happen at the same time, and there's no dialogue between the two.

the authoring house is at the mercy of what they're supplied, no matter how competent they may be.

the only way to guarantee is to compare NTSC and PAL versions. and even then, sometimes the NTSC version came from the PAL version even if the show originated in NTSC land. i know of two cases where this is so.

[Blue_MiSfit]

For reference, fixing this nonsense is easily accomplished on playback (on a PC anyway) by using ReClock. It's FANTASTIC!

Derek

[dansrfe]

So suppose I take the PAL audio and use eac3to palsource.ac3 filmoutput.ac3 -25.000 -changeto24.000 and the original audio has been pitch corrected. What does eac3to do in terms of pitch correction. In fact how does eac3to make the conversion? also would there be any difference if I just used "-slowdown" instead of "-25.000 -changeto24.000"?

[dansrfe]

Any guess at an explanation? :D

[rotty]

This thread has got very complicated.

All I can tell you is that I live in PAL land.

YES PAL films on DVD not only are sped up a frame a second to 25 FPS but also the audio is also up by about a semi tone.

Most film to DVD and certainly film to video simply use telecine at 25 FPS, i.e. the film itself is literally sped up in the telecine machine.

If you compare NTSC or Blu ray (24) films against PAL DVD audio, you can defiantly hear the pitch increase.

I have done this purposely on many films just to see it that is the case.

AND yes I know this doesn’t HAVE to be the case, you can increase the speed without pitch increase (delivery speed WILL increase but pitch can be maintained) but every film (DVD) I have replaced with blu ray proves to me that PAL 24 to 25 does increase the pitch.

Listen to MOBY on Bourne for example DVD and compare it to (blu/NTSC/CD), the DVD is nearly a semi tone up in frequency.

[dansrfe]

So I guess it's safe to use Assumefps(24) and eac3to palaudio.ac3 outputaudio.ac3 -slowdown or eac3to palaudio.ac3 outputaudio.ac3 -25.000 -changeto24.000?

[rotty]

I used to use BeSweet to extract DVD audio. You can change a movie sound track the correct pitch by ticking the PAL > NTSC option. This changes the frame rate and pitch.

Dont know if thats what your after.

[manono]

I use AssumeFPS(23.976) and the BeSweet preset.

I think that, in the absence of something conclusive, when speeding up the audio and video for PAL retail DVD you also get the out-of-tune audio. Like rotty, I have yet to see any counter-examples. Every time I've had the opportunity to listen to both the NTSC and PAL versions, the PAL version ran at the higher pitch.

[dansrfe]

But I simply fail to understand why people don't use Assumefps(24) and take their dvds (especially PAL progressive content with an fps denominator of 1) back to the actual film rate. Not only can the film content be viewed as it was exactly intended to but also it becomes an exact and rational multiple of the usual 60Hz refresh rate.

[manono]

1. No one in the world can tell the difference between 23.976fps and 24fps.
2. 23.976->29.97fps pulldown (standard 3:2 pulldown) is more regular - more steady - than is 24->29.97fps pulldown.
3. Since the refresh rate isn't really 60Hz but 59.94Hz, your last argument supports the way 'normal' people do it better than it does you.

[dansrfe]

What about other refresh rates though. Like 96Hz, 120Hz? Those refresh rates boast about having a perfectly rational sync to 24fps stuff mainly coming from bd material. Or are those also an overestimate from their decimal counterparts?

[Mug Funky]

counter-examples/scenarios:

- a film is supplied on a HDCAM or HDCAM-SR tape at 24PsF or 23.976PsF. it is played out at 25PsF and the SD output is captured to make a DVD. HDCAM decks will pitch correct by default.

- a film's audio is mixed at 24fps and is output in 24, 23.976 and 25fps, with pitch correction in the DAW. this is usually what happens.

- DVD authoring house receives a master in NTSC, and converts to PAL with speedup, while running the audio through pitch correction.

there's innumerable examples of each that i've personally been involved with. many more that i haven't.

[Ghitulescu]

But I simply fail to understand why people don't use Assumefps(24) and take their dvds (especially PAL progressive content with an fps denominator of 1) back to the actual film rate. Not only can the film content be viewed as it was exactly intended to but also it becomes an exact and rational multiple of the usual 60Hz refresh rate.

It appears that the usual 60Hz is in minory of viewers (Europe alone has more viewers that USA and Japan together, we may add India, China to contrabalance Canada/Mexico :p) :) How usual is something that has no majority at all?!?!

Since 2008 most TVs can support 24p native, so again, for their owners, this hurdle is solved.

I live in a PAL country and, unlike USA, most of our gear can play NTSC too. I have and watched movies both in PAL and NTSC, also in 24p. There's no noticeable difference.

Besides 60:24 = 2.5, not exactly a multiple. At least according to the math we learned in Europe.

[dansrfe]

I meant a rational multiple (not necessarily an integer multiple). I was a little confused with the 60Hz actually being 59.94Hz. So I guess there is, technically speaking, no running away from a slight judder or slowdown/speedup unless you view 24p content on a 24p tv (24Hz, 48Hz, 72Hz, 96Hz, 120Hz). So for 23.976 content on a 59.94Hz display Frame 1 is refreshed 2 times and Frame 2 is refreshed 3 times and the cycle continues. In that case it's probably worse to view 24p material on a 59.94Hz display since 59.94:24 = 2.4975 vs. 59.94:23.976 = 2.5 am I correct?

[2Bdecided]

AFAICT there is no actual 24p in use (except on a very accurately running film camera or projector). All "24p" BluRay discs are actually 24/1.001fps.

@Ghitulescu,

I can't believe anyone in Europe thinks "There's no noticeable difference" between 24p-in-60i ("NTSC" film) and 25p-in-50i ("PAL" film) - I find the extra judder of NTSC to be very noticeable.

Cheers,
David.

[dansrfe]

I really don't get the point of 25p-in-50i though. I mean a 25p stream can be played back on a 50Hz tv with a perfect integer multiple of 2. Well I guess it's to be backwards compatible to the people that are still using CRT tv sets @ 50Hz in PAL countries. BTW I have actually backed up many BD's to x264 mkv's that are exactly at 24fps from the source. Most hollywood discs have 23.976 but BD from other countries or for international distribution do have 24fps in my past experiences and observations.

[TinTime]

AND yes I know this doesn’t HAVE to be the case, you can increase the speed without pitch increase (delivery speed WILL increase but pitch can be maintained) but every film (DVD) I have replaced with blu ray proves to me that PAL 24 to 25 does increase the pitch.

This is my experience too. Pitch correction seems to be used very rarely, presumably because it sounds awful.

AFAICT there is no actual 24p in use (except on a very accurately running film camera or projector). All "24p" BluRay discs are actually 24/1.001fps.

There are some actual 24p Blu-rays around, but most are 24000/1001fps.

[Ghitulescu]

@Ghitulescu,
I can't believe anyone in Europe thinks "There's no noticeable difference" between 24p-in-60i ("NTSC" film) and 25p-in-50i ("PAL" film) - I find the extra judder of NTSC to be very noticeable.
When not [correctly] IVTCed by the player/TV. Then yes, you're right.
I really don't get the point of 25p-in-50i though. I mean a 25p stream can be played back on a 50Hz tv with a perfect integer multiple of 2. Well I guess it's to be backwards compatible to the people that are still using CRT tv sets @ 50Hz in PAL countries.There's no 25p standard, that's why. There's also no NTSC @ 23.976 bzw. 24fps, that's why the original 24fps gets converted into 60i DF (telecine).
This is my experience too. Pitch correction seems to be used very rarely, presumably because it sounds awful.I really really doubt it. I said before I am in the possession of both (sometimes 3 times) versions of the same movie (PAL speedup, NTSC 59.94 and sometimes 24/1.001) and the pitch correction was done, ie not hearing Bruce Willis speaking like Mickey Mouse. Sorry Mickey for this comparison ;). But maybe if you dare to define awful...

[TinTime]

I really really doubt it. I said before I am in the possession of both (sometimes 3 times) versions of the same movie (PAL speedup, NTSC 59.94 and sometimes 24/1.001) and the pitch correction was done, ie not hearing Bruce Willis speaking like Mickey Mouse. Sorry Mickey for this comparison ;).

I can only go from a completely unscientific sample of things that I have watched. Maybe pitch correction is more common in Germany than the UK? Maybe I'm just wrong...

But maybe if you dare to define awful...

Awful means I don't like it :). Perhaps of course I only notice it when it's done badly. I'd rather have chipmunks than pitch correction stuttering though. At least it can be reversed.

[Ghitulescu]

I can only go from a completely unscientific sample of things that I have watched. Maybe pitch correction is more common in Germany than the UK? Maybe I'm just wrong...
I don't think they overdub English voices over the American ones :), so when the audio tapes arrives in DE for synchronisation, they come most probably in 24p NDF, then time-code-synched to video (the audio player does the pitch correction).

Besides, almost "transparent" pitch correction can be done even with 50€ worth audio gear, or completely transparent in software (provided at least 2x Nyquist-type oversampling was used), so imagine what a 15000€ gear can do.
Awful means I don't like it :). Perhaps of course I only notice it when it's done badly. I'd rather have chipmunks than pitch correction stuttering though. At least it can be reversed.
Would it be possible for my own sake to post an unprocessed sample of an awful/stutter/pitch DVD you have?

[Lyle_JP]

in most cases, pitch correction is done.

I have several dozen PAL R2/4 discs from the UK and Australia, and I can think of only two that were pitch corrected. Pitch correction in my experience is the exception, not the rule.

[TinTime]

Would it be possible for my own sake to post an unprocessed sample of an awful/stutter/pitch DVD you have?

Ok, here's one that springs to mind from Planet Earth (http://www.mediafire.com/file/nzji4nzgyog/planet earth.zip). It's slightly different from what we've been talking about in that the PAL DVD sample is ok but the HD DVD sample has been slowed down and pitch corrected. So the exact opposite of the discussion in fact :)

I may have overstated my case with the word "awful" but it's noticeable and I don't like it. Stuttering was also a bad word - pulsing might be better.

[Mug Funky]

@ Lyle_JP:

perhaps i'll qualify that with "nowadays pitch correction is almost always done". there was of course a time when DVD existed but pitch correction tools were not sophisticated, or too expensive, or just too much bother to use. i've done a couple of conversions like this myself back in the day.

however, recent films (say, the last 5 years? i'm pulling out a figure here as all i have to draw upon is my own experience) are pitch corrected as international DVD distribution has become an expectation from the beginning of the post production process. separate masters are made, often with consultation with the directors/producers depending on how zealous or busy they are. i've personally dealt with a director who wanted to oversee something as simple as the down-res from 2k to SD (we tried 3 different ways until he found the resize he liked most).

[dansrfe]

It would be really cool to work with the transfer process. Like an internship or something. I just want to see the process hands-on one time. :)

[2Bdecided]

Besides, almost "transparent" pitch correction can be done even with 50€ worth audio gear, or completely transparent in software (provided at least 2x Nyquist-type oversampling was used), so imagine what a 15000€ gear can do.Please point me to this cheap/free software. I hate the artefacts on the old software I have.

Cheers,
David.

[Ghitulescu]

SSRC is one.

[2Bdecided]

SSRC is one.The SSRC that I have is a simple resampler. It doesn't so pitch correction at all. Do you have something different?

Cheers,
David.

[Ghitulescu]

You're right, it wasn't SSRC, I did that long time ago, I remember it was a CLI with a very short name, maybe sox, don't know anymore. For 8 years now I do everything in hardware, but a very few things (authoring). I let the player do the pitch correction (and if it's analog I let the audio line do it), but it's a very rare situation. I don't need to do standard conversions.

[TinTime]

sox certainly does pitch correction.

[Lyle_JP]

My experience with pitch correction could be skewed by my taste in films. The vast majority of stuff I buy R2 is from smaller houses like Anchor Bay UK, Optimum, Sanctuary Entertainment, etc... But even some recent big name catalog titles seem to have none applied. Maybe it's different for brand new releases, but I snagged a copy of the recent R2/R4 two-disc special edition of The Shining from Warner Bros, and it appears to have the usual semi-tone pitch shift (no correction).

On the other hand, two of the discs I have that definitely are pitch corrected are also catalog titles, and are about 5 years old (Fistful of Dollars and For A Few Dollars More).

I guess if there's a point to all this, it's that there's no hard and fast rule about pitch correction. It's there or it's not, and you won't be able to tell any way but by listening.