Questions about MakeMKV

[ikantspelwurdz]

I've been looking for a way to watch Blu-Rays without needing the disc in the drive, and preferably a way that doesn't cost money. Everyone says to use AnyDVD, and a few say to use DVDfab, but they're both pretty pricey, and my trials have expired.

I recently found MakeMKV. It's also a trial, but it seems it will be free for awhile.

I guess my first question is, are there any other alternatives worth considering?

Anyway, I've used it just by using the backup function, then using IMGBurn to make an ISO out of it. Then I mount it with D-Tools and play with PowerDVD 7, which can play DVDs from the hard disk, but it seems won't do the same for Blu-Rays unless I trick it this way.

But I've got some questions about the MKV function. I tried it out once so far, selecting the main title. The biggest file on the disk is called "00046.m2ts" and it is 16.8 GB. When I make an MKV, it shrinks down to 14.5 GB. What happened to the other 2.3 GB? Is it re-encoding the video? That seems unlikely, as that would probably make the process take longer than it actually did, and it would hurt video quality too. But I also don't understand how the original file could be more than 10% padding.

Also, when I try to play the MKV file in VLC, if I try to turn on a subtitle track, it says:
No suitable decoder module:
VLC does not support the audio or video format "undf". Unfortunately there is no way for you to fix this.

How can I get subtitles to work? Do I need a different player? My copy of VLC is updated to version 1.05.

Lastly, is there a difference in image quality between:
Playing a Blu-Ray on a Playstation 3
Playing a Blu-Ray on PowerDVD
Playing an MKV file extracted from a Blu-Ray on VLC or some other software that supports MKV

Note that I do not care for "video enhancement" features like contrast boosting, sharpening filters, 120Hz TV emulation, or anything else that would sacrifice fidelity to the source. I like my films to look as much like film as possible.

Thanks.

[setarip_old]

Hi! When I make an MKV, it shrinks down to 14.5 GB. What happened to the other 2.3 GB?Using "Core" DTS or "Core" .AC3 instead of the high def versions of those two types of audio that are apparently not presently playable by anything (or virtually anything).

How can I get subtitles to work?Presently, there are very few programs that are able to display "PGS" subtitles. I'd strongly suggest that you read the many threads regarding this topic that are posted at the MakeMKV forum at:

http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/


is there a difference in image quality between...No, not if you're using the same screen for display...

[ikantspelwurdz]

Thanks for the response. I don't really understand the nuances of "HD" audio, though. I was under the impression that it worked the same as multiple audio tracks on a DVD, only with more channels, sample rate, and/or bitrate. I have no idea what "core audio" means as opposed to "HD lossless."

When I play the Blu-Ray through PowerDVD, the Audio Languages right-click menu lists "English (United States)" as the only option. The audio attributes are:
Audio Coding mode: DTS
Sampling Rate: 48kHz
Number of Audio channels: 5.1
Bitrate: 3909 Kbps

But when I run MakeMKV, I get a node that says "Audio - DTS Lossless English" which has a child node that says "Audio - DTS 3/2+1 English."

The former has this info:
Type: Audio
Name: HD Lossless
Language: English
Codec: DTS
Channels: 6
Sample rate: 48000 kHz

The latter has this info:
Type: Audio
Flags: Core audio
Name: 3/2+1
Language: English
Codec: DTS
Channels: 6
Sample rate: 48000 kHz

So, what is the difference between these two? And is it analogous to how sometimes a DVD will include two quality versions of the same track (like DTS/DD5.1) ? And if so, why does neither the Blu-Ray menu nor PowerDVD give me the option to pick one?

[setarip_old]

And if so, why does neither the Blu-Ray menu nor PowerDVD give me the option to pick one?Because, if you look carefully, you'll see that by default (since they're not playable), the "lossless" HD versions have been DE-selected (No checkmarks next to them) by MakeMKV, while the "Core" versions have been selected...

[ikantspelwurdz]

I think you misunderstood that last question. I was talking about using the original disc itself, not an MKV file. If the disc has two audio tracks on it, why doesn't PowerDVD let you pick?

[CWR03]

Did you purchase the full version of PowerDVD? The OEM one that comes with a BluRay drive will only allow 2.0 audio to be used. The audio is presumably downsampled anyway, so there's no reason to select from a high quality source or a very high quality source.

[ikantspelwurdz]

It came with the drive, but I'm pretty sure it supports 5.1. The activation page says:
You are currently running
PowerDVD BD 6CH version.
with internal pack(s): MPEG4 AVC Pack ,Mobilty [sic] Pack

I also hear stuff from my rear speakers when playing a 5.1 BD, and AFAIK I am not using any sort of upmixing.

And even if there's no point in using HD lossless (I'm just assuming that is somehow better than core, though I have no idea how), I still want to know why I don't even have the option of selecting it. The disc's menu doesn't even have an audio menu - why would they include two audio tracks and not include a way to choose between them?

[SamuriHL]

I'm not going to be able to fully answer all your questions but I'll take a stab at some of them. HD audio consists of one of 3 formats. LPCM is the raw, uncompressed format. It's what everything, and I mean everything, eventually gets decoded to. Both lossy and lossless formats are decoded to LPCM. Some discs store LPCM tracks directly, however that's becoming more and more rare. Most studios fall into TrueHD or DTS-HD MA camps. Both are lossless, but, they are compressed. Think of it like the difference between zip and rar. Both TrueHD and DTS-HD MA contain what's known as a "core", lossless track. For TrueHD that's AC3. For DTS-HD MA, that's DTS. The HD, then, is an extension of the core track, allowing for higher bit depth and thus more information. PDVD 7 is going to decode the HD audio to LPCM OR only play the core audio track for you. What Seta was saying to your original question, however, is the size probably decreased because by default MakeMKV selects only the core track, not the HD extensions. That saves a great deal of space. Also, you can right click while the movie is playing and check the audio menu to see what tracks are available on the disc.

[CWR03]

It came with the drive, but I'm pretty sure it supports 5.1. The activation page says:
You are currently running
PowerDVD BD 6CH version.
So does mine, but I'd have to purchase the full version to actually use the 5.1 audio. So yes it's supported, but unless you paid it's not enabled. Right-click on the screen while it's playing and select Configuration, then click the audio tab and you'll see what you can choose from.

[setarip_old]

@ikantspelwurds

Depending on which drive and which OEM version PowerDVD you have, the following may be useful:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=21688

[ikantspelwurdz]

Most studios fall into TrueHD or DTS-HD MA camps. Both are lossless, but, they are compressed. Think of it like the difference between zip and rar. Both TrueHD and DTS-HD MA contain what's known as a "core", lossless track. For TrueHD that's AC3. For DTS-HD MA, that's DTS. The HD, then, is an extension of the core track, allowing for higher bit depth and thus more information.
Let me see if I understand this right.
"Core" DTS is basically DVD quality audio.
"HD lossless" is essentially a diff file that when merged with core, produces better than DVD quality audio. But not all players support this, which is why this is stored as a separate track instead of just having one full quality track.

Is that accurate? And if so, how does one elect to turn on the "HD lossless" extensions, if just to see whether they work or not? When I right click when the movie is playing (straight from the unmodified disc) and check the audio menu, the only option is "English (United States)."

So does mine, but I'd have to purchase the full version to actually use the 5.1 audio. So yes it's supported, but unless you paid it's not enabled. Right-click on the screen while it's playing and select Configuration, then click the audio tab and you'll see what you can choose from.
I get:
Headphone
2 speaker
4 speaker
6 speaker
7 speaker
8 speaker
Use SPDIF

with 6 speaker selected by default.

[SamuriHL]

Let me see if I understand this right.
"Core" DTS is basically DVD quality audio.
"HD lossless" is essentially a diff file that when merged with core, produces better than DVD quality audio. But not all players support this, which is why this is stored as a separate track instead of just having one full quality track.

Is that accurate? And if so, how does one elect to turn on the "HD lossless" extensions, if just to see whether they work or not? When I right click when the movie is playing (straight from the unmodified disc) and check the audio menu, the only option is "English (United States)."


Sort of, but, not really, no. There isn't "separate files". The core audio is embedded in the HD audio track. It's all one stream inside the m2ts file. Certain programs, like MakeMKV, can extract the core only which is what they do by default, and in that case you'll lose the HD audio extensions. I switch MakeMKV to give me the full HD audio track because I can then bitstream that to my receiver using MPC-HC+ffdshow.

The version of PDVD you are using does NOT bitstream HD audio. So you have 2 options. The first (and IMO best depending on your equipment) is to decode the HD audio track to LPCM and send that to your receiver either through HDMI or analog (again, depending on your equipment). The lossless nature of the audio is retained in that case...it's akin to unzipping a file on your hard drive. (I'll ignore the downsampling discussion for now as it'll only serve to confuse things further. For all intents and purposes let's just call this HD audio and forget about downsampling).

Now, the other option is if you use S/PDIF to connect to your receiver, then you are never going to get HD audio at all. Instead you will get the core AC3 or DTS track (yes, DVD quality as you refer to it) sent to your receiver. This is less than ideal as both AC3 and DTS are lossy codecs. Still, not bad and if that's all your equipment supports then that's fine. But in this case you are NOT getting HD at all.

So, the player can decode DTS-HD MA and TrueHD to LPCM for playback, or, it can send the core DTS and AC3 track to your receiver over S/PDIF. Those are your options with that version of PDVD. If you have an ATI 5xxx card, Auzentech whatever the heck it is card, or a Clarkdale solution and PDVD9 or PDVD10, then you can bitstream to an HD audio capable receiver which will then take the DTS-HD MA or TrueHD track and decode it on the receiver to LPCM for playback. PDVD7 or PDVD8 does not support this functionality.

I hope this helps and if you have any more questions on it let me know.

[SamuriHL]

Shoot, I've reread some of this thread and I see now where your confusion is coming from. Let me explain something further to you to really make you understand what's going on in MakeMKV vs PDVD.

Your disc contains one HD audio track. PDVD sees that one track and can do multiple things with it as I discussed in my last post. But it's ONE audio track. So far so good? Ok, now you load the disc in MakeMKV. The difference here is MakeMKV is *NOT* showing you what's on the disc. I really want you to understand what I'm saying here. It's NOT showing what's on the disc. It's showing you what it CAN include in the MKV and this is a BIG distinction. MakeMKV can extract the core audio from the HD audio, hence why it shows a child option under the main audio track. It's not that there are two separate tracks...it's showing you that it can extract either the HD audio, OR core audio, OR both. In the case of you choosing both, it'll add 2 audio tracks to the MKV...one HD audio and one core audio. It does similar awesome things for subtitles where it can give you all the subtitles OR just the forced subtitles OR subtitles for both. In this regard MakeMKV is simply awesome because it allows you to tailor your MKV to exactly what you want. But it is confusing in that it's not showing you exactly what's on the disc...rather it's showing you what it can extract to your MKV for you.

[SamuriHL]

@setarip_old

Just an FYI and slightly off topic so I'll keep this brief. MPC-HC + FFDSHOW can bitstream the HD audio and in the case of TrueHD tracks it can decode it to bit perfect LPCM in an MKV container. Also, FFDSHOW can handle the native PGS subs just fine. So, if you want an absolutely flawless playback solution that can mirror what a commercial player gives you with a mounted movie only ISO, MPC-HC + FFSHOW can do that quite nicely. It does require some non-trivial configuration, but, once it's set up, it's simply amazing.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Hi!Instead you will get the core AC3 or DTS track (yes, DVD quality as you refer to it) sent to your receiver.Unless I'm mistaken, even the core versions are are higher quality than those for standard DVD - .AC3 is 640kbps vs. 384kbps

and DTS is 1536kbps vs. 768kbps...

[SamuriHL]

@SamuriHL

Hi!Unless I'm mistaken, even the core versions are are higher quality than those for standard DVD - .AC3 is 640kbps vs. 384kbps

and DTS is 1536kbps vs. 768kbps...

Nope. DVD has 640kpbs for AC3 and 1536kbps for DTS.

[ikantspelwurdz]

Thanks, I think that helps. Just one thing - you say to decode the HD audio to LPCM. Does PowerDVD do that on the fly by default? My PC is plugged into the receiver via three analog stereo cables, and PowerDVD is set to 6 channel audio.

Oh, and one question remains open. Probably the only one really on topic for this sub-forum too. Are there any decrypters worth considering that I haven't mentioned yet, preferably free ones?

Also, about subtitles, I got a nightly build of VLC, and it can play subtitles from MKV files. Just in case anyone reads this and wants to know.

[SamuriHL]

If you're using analog out to your receiver, ALL audio from your PC is decoded to LPCM before being sent. Yes, PDVD is decoding the HD audio on the fly if you have it set to 6 channel. That's HD audio and is lossless. (It will downsample the audio to 48/16 but very few people can tell the difference and is nothing to get too concerned about).

Decrypters I can't really help you with. I use AnyDVD HD exclusively, which as you know is not free. For me it's what suits my needs and works on every disc I've ever tried. (And if not, it's fixed very quickly). DVD Pass Key is a program released by Fengtao recently that mimics the look and feel of AnyDVD. I can't speak to how well it works but some people seem to like it. I think it's free at the moment since it's in beta but you'd have to check on that. MakeMKV seems to have pretty good decryption capabilities built in, as well, and is only free while it's in beta. I'm testing it for my setup right now and so far I really truly like what I see, but, I don't use the decryption capabilities. In fact I asked in their forum if they could provide and option to switch them off, but, I don't know if he's going to be willing to add that or not. I'm sure there are others I'm missing on this list that other people who use them can tell you about.

You have to be more specific about what you mean when you say "it can play subtitles from MKV files." I'm assuming you mean PGS subtitles which I know they were working on. PGS is the blu-ray format for subs. There are many others including IDX/SUB and SRT which I believe have been supported for a while. MakeMKV embeds PGS subs directly into the MKV (one of the reasons I love it so much, in fact), but, very few players support that....yet. VLC has been working on it. ffdshow can add the ability for any directshow application. As of yet, no commercial players support it (PDVD, TMT, WinDVD, etc). But I suspect it'll become MUCH more common as time goes on. Good to see other options becoming available.

[ikantspelwurdz]

Yeah, I mean PGS subtitles extracted from Blu-Rays. As in, I extracted an MKV from a Blu-Ray that had subtitles, and the nightly build of VLC played it without warnings.

[SamuriHL]

That's awesome. I'm glad they got that working. VLC is quite the little player, as well. I should throw some of my newly created MKV's with HD audio in them at it and see what it does. :D