Advice need on AGP graphics

[JimmyBarnes]

My HTPC is an old Athlon XP 2 GHz/512MB DDR1/AGP8 64MB which plays all my DVD backups to AVI/Xvid fine.

I recently did a BD backup to 720p (1280x720) AVI/Xvid (8GB) and while it plays, the audio lags the video in a marked way. It does not do this on the PC which created the AVI (Core2Duo 2.4GHz/4GB DDR2/1GB PCI-E).

My question: If I upgrade the PCHT AGP to say 256 MB is this likely to fix the AV out-of-sync problem? I know I should make a new HTPC but haven't the $$$ ATM...

Your comments please

:thanks:

[namaiki]

It will not help. The only thing that would generally help is a CPU upgrade.

[Gser]

lolwut AGP gfx cards. Its been half a decade since I've used one. Upgrade the whole machine bro cause yours is anchient.

[AnonCrow]

A cheap used Nvidia 7600 or Ati 2600 AGP card would do the trick, or a new store-bought Radeon HD3450 ( ~ 50 € ). Even 1080p should be possible with these, though you may need to re-encode the file (from source) into something compatible

[JimmyBarnes]

A cheap used Nvidia 7600 or Ati 2600 AGP card would do the trick, or a new store-bought Radeon HD3450 ( ~ 50 € ). Even 1080p should be possible with these, though you may need to re-encode the file (from source) into something compatible

So you disagree with Namaiki's opinion that "The only thing that would generally help is a CPU upgrade." ?

Why those particular cards and what RAM should they carry?

[JimmyBarnes]

lolwut AGP gfx cards. Its been half a decade since I've used one. Upgrade the whole machine bro cause yours is anchient.

Well dude as, I say, $$$, be happy to accept your donation to my "New HTPC fund" tho... ;)

[mariush]

Rather than buying a new 50$ video card on old standards, I'd suggest just getting a new motherboard + cpu + memory combination. It would cost you less than 100$.

For example:
45$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157158
46$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128424
55$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135233
60$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128408

All are motherboards from known manufacturers, that support even relatively new AMD processors and have built in video cards (especially the ones with AMD chipset, the last two) that are fast enough to play any movie you throw at them
Now what I listed above is just a sample - you should look for one such motherboard that also has at least a DVI port - I think the ones above have only VGA output.

Processors are also relatively cheap, for example these models would work with the motherboards above:

33$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103698
53$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103714
54$ and up, lots of cpus : http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010340343%204026&name=%2450%20-%20%2475

Even the cheapest is much faster than the one you have now.

You'd just also need a memory module for the system:

25$ and up : http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010170147%201052307858%201052416064&name=DDR2%20800%20%28PC2%206400%29

So you're looking at 45-55$ (motherboard) + 35-55$ (processor) + 25-30$ memory.

[namaiki]

So you disagree with Namaiki's opinion that "The only thing that would generally help is a CPU upgrade." ?

Why those particular cards and what RAM should they carry?

DXVA (offload video decoding from the CPU to the GPU) is possible for most H.264/AVC encoded videos with most, recent Radeon and GeForce graphics cards.

Not possible with XviD and as AnonCrow wrote, you would have to '"re-encode the file (from source) into something compatible" for it to work.

[JimmyBarnes]

It will not help. The only thing that would generally help is a CPU upgrade.

Why do you think that an AGP upgrade would not help?

[namaiki]

Why do you think that an AGP upgrade would not help?

Because you're playing xvid which cannot be accelerated on the GPU and so you would need a CPU upgrade.

[AnonCrow]

Your lowly old CPU should actually be fast enough to play 720p on its own if you didn't use too demanding encoding options and use a fast software decoder.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=631560#post631560

[JimmyBarnes]

Rather than buying a new 50$ video card on old standards, I'd suggest just getting a new motherboard + cpu + memory combination. It would cost you less than 100$.

For example:
[snip]

So you're looking at 45-55$ (motherboard) + 35-55$ (processor) + 25-30$ memory.

Thanks for your trouble dude, but:
"I come from a land DownUnder
Where women glow and men thunder" (I wish)

and NewEgg do not ship internationally. The price here for something like what you suggest would be $200, which (poor me) I can't afford ATM (isn't it pathetic...) :eek:

PS one thing I do use NewEgg for is checking userfeedback on various PC items, many of which are available in the USA and Australia - very helpful

cheers

[JimmyBarnes]

Your lowly old CPU should actually be fast enough to play 720p on its own if you didn't use too demanding encoding options and use a fast software decoder.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=631560#post631560

Well I used QPel and GMC if that's what u mean. Interesting thread, thanx..

I have in fact played a 720p//Xvid/AVI encode or two on the unit OK, but those were 2-3GB, whereas this one is 8GB

Anyway I've got a slightly faster CPU which overclocks well, I'm going to try it...

Later: Doesn't work becos my PCHT mobo can't provide the required FSB - the "faster" CPU actually runs slower than the CPU in there now

[littleD]

I also think your athlon should be enough. i have Sempron1.8 so can test closer when back home.
Dont youse gmc in your encoding settings, by qpixel you gain also very little ( but for 720 it may be different).

For fast decoding youse ffdshow decoder, Turn off postprocessing and Yv12 >>>RGB conversion if you enabled that. And use overlay mixer as renderer as that one is the fastest.
But on the other hand, i found that EVR custom renderer have great ability to mantain AV synchronization. When you play video at 90-100% cpu and dropped frames occur, the synchro come back immediately when cpu usage gets little lower. But EVR takes some more cpu cycles that overlay mixer.

How much do you have memory on your graphic card.? For full HD playback its fine to have 256MB. If yoiu have less then go to bios and set AGP aperture size to get: APG ap size+ on card memory= 256MB.

[JimmyBarnes]

For fast decoding youse ffdshow decoder['quote]

Why do you say that when ffdshow says it uses Xvid 1.2.2?

[quote]How much do you have memory on your graphic card.?

64MB, rather light on...

[JimmyBarnes]

DXVA (offload video decoding from the CPU to the GPU) is possible for most H.264/AVC encoded videos with most, recent Radeon and GeForce graphics cards.

Not possible with XviD and as AnonCrow wrote, you would have to '"re-encode the file (from source) into something compatible" for it to work.

AVI/Xvid is what I am used to - very reliable and predictable. But I'm beginning to look at AVC/H.264...

[AnonCrow]

What kind of bitrate is the 8GB 720p file ?
Anything approaching 20 Mbps, and MPEG-2 might provide acceptable quality, it's be easier to decode by CPU, and your existing AGP card might already support (partial) hardware MPEG2 decoding/acceleration.

OTOH, if you switch to H.264 for the HD stuff and you don't yet get a new/used videocard to handle the decoding, use x264 with --tune fastdecode , and use a fast software decoder (eg. DiAVC, CoreAVC or Divx H264)

[littleD]

[QUOTE=littleD;1399959]
For fast decoding youse ffdshow decoder['quote]
Why do you say that when ffdshow says it uses Xvid 1.2.2?
64MB, rather light on...

If ffdshow show xvid, then it use same code as standalone xvid decoder i think. Change to libavcodec and see if that helps.

Regarding ram... Go to bios settings and you can easily change to 128MB aperture size. For 1080p 256MB is required.

[JimmyBarnes]

What kind of bitrate is the 8GB 720p file ?

6756 Kb/s, but that's Xvid of course

ATM I am just trying to get the AVI/Xvid/AC3 to play normally. H.264 may come later

It's becoming clearer to me that I DO need a new PC, but as I've said, can't quite afford it ATM.

[shon3i]

Radeon HD2600XT will decode any 1080p flawlessly on that machine, and any other higher AGP GPU for example HD 3850 but is much expensive.

[CruNcher]

First of all try ffplay, mplayer and vlc they generally give better performance due to less overhead no need of directshow ect you could also try as others said to lower Rendering overhead by using VMR7 or Overlay Mixer.
Get the newest ffdshow and don't set use XviD but libavcodec for the Mpeg-4 formats in ffdshow's video decoder configuration dialog also setting the AGP aperture size is important in your case (bios) and check if AGP acceleration is actually working (Dxdiag) and set the AGP bandwidth to the highest possible and check if it is also using it GPU-Z (bios).
As you using the Windows System as a HTPC i guess you wont need most of the Services in Windows running so disable the not used one (less overhead) if you don't know how you can use applications like Tuneup 2010 (trial version is enough) todo it by the click of 1 button and reverse it the same way if needed (Turbo-Mode).

Also never forget to keep your Drivers, Directx subsystem up2date another thing to get more speed if you using <SP1 would be disabling DEP

If all of this doesn't help maybe try a Linux BootCD and see if you can get better Performance from their :)

[Blue_MiSfit]

Easy answer, STOP USING ASP :)!!! x264 will beat xvid at any bitrate, and although more difficult to decode in software, there are plenty of cheap hardware options.

If you have a very basic, modern GPU with DXVA (as shon3i suggested at least a radeon 2600xt or a geforce 8500), you can get full GPU decode. This means you will not have to use the CPU hardly at all.

This is THE solution. Your new encodes will all look much better too, since you're using x264 now :devil:

~MiSfit

[JimmyBarnes]

Radeon HD2600XT will decode any 1080p flawlessly on that machine, and any other higher AGP GPU for example HD 3850 but is much expensive.

Dude I'm talking Xvid here, not just BD

[littleD]

JimmyBarnes... I actually have 2 trailers in divx/xvid 1080p @3,5Mb/s and second one @4Mb/s and they play fine... Just without YV12 to RGB conversion in ffdshow. Tell me then why my little bit weaker CPU can run them easily and not yours - even 720p? Have you checked bios settings i advised you?

[BigDid]

Easy answer, STOP USING ASP :)!!! x264 will beat xvid at any bitrate, and although more difficult to decode in software, there are plenty of cheap hardware options.
Hi Misfit,

Would you mind stop putting pressure for x264?
Your arguments are solid BUT try to remember how difficult it was to make the transition ... new applications, jungle of settings, not easy to ask for help when some people enjoy laughing :mad: at your ignorance and so forth.

This is THE solution. Your new encodes will all look much better too, since you're using x264 now :devil:

Once again I agree but how many more times will you want to make your point?
If it is annoying/upsetting, leave it; maybe someone else will come with another insight/info/point of vue that can help the OP.

Edit: Concerning the hardware, I would also try to tune the AGP settings in the bios. I know that the OP is reserved for using ffdshow but it could be an occasion to try and see if any improvements ;)

Did

[burfadel]

Thanks for your trouble dude, but:
"I come from a land DownUnder
Where women glow and men thunder" (I wish)

and NewEgg do not ship internationally. The price here for something like what you suggest would be $200, which (poor me) I can't afford ATM (isn't it pathetic...) :eek:

PS one thing I do use NewEgg for is checking userfeedback on various PC items, many of which are available in the USA and Australia - very helpful

cheers

Actually the prices in the links he gave are pretty much the same or slightly more expensive (by the time you take in to account currency conversion) than MSY, or some other really good places here in Aus. Plus they're walk in stores :) (there are some cheap online places too).

In terms of the current setup upgrading the RAM to 1GB will be beneficial (the compatible sticks can be bought cheaply online).

I take it you are running XP on the HTPC? I suggest finding all the latest relevant drivers (I know most will be no longer updated, but you may be able to find later ones than you currently have, and be surprised in the process)!

After doing so, do a format, reinstall XP Sp3, fully update Windows (including Directx, which needs to be downloaded separately from Windowsupdate), update all the drivers. Disable Indexing (comes under Windows Search 4 with XP), disable all unnecessary services (leave task scheduler enabled, disabling affects prefetching).

Enable DMA transfers if currently disabled (look that up if need be - do it through the control panel), look up oldschool tweaks like IRQ8priority and others, it may help (suitable for XP). Keep apps to a minimum. If its a closed system you probably don't need an antivirus - don't flame me for this, but if you are playing straight off the HTPC and only input is from your main rig, and that has a good update to date antivirus, its not really necessary... ONLY if thats the only source after connecting to update Windows XP etc.

Additional considerations:
Change your FSB to the next step, is it 266FSB or 333FSB on that CPU? I used to have an Athlon XP 2400+ years ago, it quite happily ran at the next fsb step when I changed the memory ratio so it ran back at its designated speed. You probably need to set the cpu multiplier back as well :)

If the video is playing fine and its just a sync issue, it sounds more related to system settings, out of date drivers, and clutter than a slow video card! If it was a slow video card or cpu, you'd be dropping video frames not just cause sync issues. The other serious cause of sync issues is not enough RAM causing paging, at least on XP.

[markanini]

Anything from 8000 series geforce or 2000 series radeon offloads video decoding dedicated chips according to wikipedia.
I expect to install a 2600 on a socket 775 "classic"system tomorrow and report findings.

[Blue_MiSfit]

@BigDid:

No, I won't do that. There's no reason to continue using old technology when alternatives exist that surpass the original in every way possible (and are actually simpler to use in many cases).

My points are simple:

1) If you want to watch HD video when you have a slow CPU, you can either use MPEG-2, or buy a video card with DXVA and use H.264 or VC-1. There are no video cards with full ASP decode acceleration AFAIK.
2) Given the fact that x264 is faster and delivers better quality than any VC-1 encoder I've ever tested, the choice seems clear.

There's nothing difficult about MeGUI or RipBot264. Most people here are quite friendly and happy to answer questions. I know I'm more than happy to help a newbie. Heck, even basic CLI is as simple as this:


x264.exe input.avs --preset fast --tune film --crf 22 --output "output.mp4"


If you want to re-purpose old hardware to do more advanced things, there is somewhat of a learning curve, sure. But, it's really not very steep given the current state of GUIs and x264's CLI. I'd wager anyone familiar with encoding via AutoGK could learn Ripbot264 in about 20 minutes flat. If you can't spare 20 minutes to learn about HD video, you're just plain lazy. I stand by that 100%.

This nonsense about adjusting AGP settings is just silly. Your GPU isn't doing anything meaningful unless it's capable of DXVA.

If folks are just ripping their DVDs, and want to keep using old software to make 700mb Xvid AVI's that's fine. HD is a whole different ballgame. That's all there is to it.

/thread.

~MiSfit

[littleD]

@BigDid:
This nonsense about adjusting AGP settings is just silly. Your GPU isn't doing anything meaningful unless it's capable of DXVA.
~MiSfit

Yes, silly for the one that dont understand the thing. Very low Graphic memory (frame buffer) may lead to jerky layback for high resolution videos even on capable cpus. Increasing that (card replacement) or increasing AGP aperture size (and not RAM!) will fix problem. As its been said, for 1080p you need 256MB total video memory.

Concerning x264 vs xvid. I know that the former continously improves its quality/bitrate but when it comes to compressing on one core (like athlon), xvid still wins @speed. It was my impession some time ago, but now things may have changed, i didnt make any real comparisons.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I've never seen adjusting AGP aperture size do anything useful. Then again, I've never actually tried to play 1080p video on an old system. If it really does fix the OP's problem, fantastic. However, I remain skeptical until I hear confirmation that this does in fact fix the issue :)

~MiSfit

[JimmyBarnes]

Actually the prices in the links he gave are pretty much the same or slightly more expensive (by the time you take in to account currency conversion) than MSY, or some other really good places here in Aus. Plus they're walk in stores :) (there are some cheap online places too).

In terms of the current setup upgrading the RAM to 1GB will be beneficial (the compatible sticks can be bought cheaply online).


I've built many PCs from scratch and wouldn't go for the absolute cheapest. Gigabyte (Intel chipset) LGA775 mobo prob. around $67, Dual Core CPU 2.93GHz $93, RAM DDR2-800 1GB ~$30. PCI-E 1GB graphics. $~65. Plus BD-ROM ~$120. In fact what I would prob do is use the Core2Duo from my personal PC and upgrade latter to E8400 C2D 3.0 GHz.


I take it you are running XP on the HTPC? I suggest finding all the latest relevant drivers (I know most will be no longer updated, but you may be able to find later ones than you currently have, and be surprised in the process)!

After doing so, do a format, reinstall XP Sp3, fully update Windows (including Directx, which needs to be downloaded separately from Windowsupdate), update all the drivers. Disable Indexing (comes under Windows Search 4 with XP), disable all unnecessary services (leave task scheduler enabled, disabling affects prefetching).

Enable DMA transfers if currently disabled (look that up if need be - do it through the control panel), look up oldschool tweaks like IRQ8priority and others, it may help (suitable for XP). Keep apps to a minimum. If its a closed system you probably don't need an antivirus - don't flame me for this, but if you are playing straight off the HTPC and only input is from your main rig, and that has a good update to date antivirus, its not really necessary... ONLY if thats the only source after connecting to update Windows XP etc.


Of the half dozen PCs in the house, the HTPC runs best for some reason, even better than my Core2Duo 2.4GHz with 4GB and XP. HTPC boots in little more than a minute and very stable, no doubt becos it is used for nothing else.
So I think I'll let sleeping dogs lie...

Additional considerations:
Change your FSB to the next step, is it 266FSB or 333FSB on that CPU? I used to have an Athlon XP 2400+ years ago, it quite happily ran at the next fsb step when I changed the memory ratio so it ran back at its designated speed. You probably need to set the cpu multiplier back as well :)


Not possible on existing mobo


If the video is playing fine and its just a sync issue, it sounds more related to system settings, out of date drivers, and clutter than a slow video card! If it was a slow video card or cpu, you'd be dropping video frames not just cause sync issues. The other serious cause of sync issues is not enough RAM causing paging, at least on XP.

Actually it's not just an AV sync issue, video playback stalls occasionally before going on, pretty sure system is choking on the AVI. Every other AVI including some 720p AVI/Xvid/AC3 plays OK, I think I just need to upgrade the PC...

Someday soon...

[namaiki]

note to self: 4MB/frame

JimmyBarnes: What media player, filters, video renderer are you using?

Also, I presume your Core 2 Duo has no problems with video playback?

[littleD]

I've never seen adjusting AGP aperture size do anything useful. Then again, I've never actually tried to play 1080p video on an old system. If it really does fix the OP's problem, fantastic. However, I remain skeptical until I hear confirmation that this does in fact fix the issue :)

~MiSfit

Sure, i also dont guarantee thats solution for his problem. But JimmyBarnes said no word on it.

But on the other hand, secondhanded 2400pro/xt or 3450 should be cheap and even better performed in games. 2600xt is too heavy (power consumtion).

[JimmyBarnes]

note to self: 4MB/frame

JimmyBarnes: What media player, filters, video renderer are you using?

ZoomPlayer 5, Xvid 1.2.2, default VR on the PCHT


Also, I presume your Core 2 Duo has no problems with video playback?

That is correct, but recently on my personal PC I installed K-Lite Codec Pack 5.9 full with a view to transcoding BD M2TS to H264, (something I have yet to achieve), so it says it's using Xvid 1.2.2. I do not want to install K-Lite on the PCHT.

[namaiki]

JimmyBarnes: Please uninstall the xvid codec and install the latest CCCP beta and try play that hd xvid file in the included Media Player Classic Homecinema build. (basically includes an updated ffdshow, haali splitter, mpc-hc in a pack)

http://cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=CCCP_Beta_Testing_Guide

Also, you might want to try change the video renderer in ZP5 to Overlay as suggested previously, and the AGP aperture as well, except I think you said you were able to play some 720p files on that PC which would sound like an issue with decoding.

[littleD]

Actually i wanted to leave this thread as is, but why not to post the proof for unbelievers.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4715/sempron.th.png (http://img149.imageshack.us/i/sempron.png/)

[namaiki]

Is that using ffdshow video?

[littleD]

What is this proof of?

That Semprons/athlonsXP decode xvid 1080p. Now Agp radeon eg 3450 will be fine for htcp use.

Is that using ffdshow video?
If by that you mean decoder then yes. Chroma upsampling shader (that is needed for radeons) works fine on my card wirh 1080p.

[JimmyBarnes]

Actually i wanted to leave this thread as is, but why not to post the proof for unbelievers.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4715/sempron.th.png (http://img149.imageshack.us/i/sempron.png/)

That's interesting but:
1. It's a 4.4 min DEMO clip - could be designed to play easily

2. Can you post the DEMO clip on a file-sharing site so I can try it on my player?

3. Do you ROUTINELY play 1080p full-length movies on your player without problems?

[mariush]

Jimmy, if you want, I can try mailing you one or two 256 MB ddr1 modules - I think I have some at my parents' house doing nothing. It should definitely improve your pc's speed either way, it wouldn't hurt at least.

[littleD]

1. OK. My trailers have max 1 consecutive b frames, low bit/pixel parameter (thus low bitrate as for xvid), 1 A/V frame interleaving if that matters, and mp3 audio. I see no other settings that could improve playback speed i think. And GMC wont help decrease cpu usage definitely..
2. Well i have adsl thus very low upload speeds. That could last ages. Maybe ill try if you really need. Plz share your video if possible.
3. Mhhhh actually not. :/ But i wouldnt see any difference between 4 min and 2 hours. Remember, evr custom preserve perfect A/V sync in case dropped frames.

@Mariush
He needs more Video memory not RAM.

[JimmyBarnes]

Jimmy, if you want, I can try mailing you one or two 256 MB ddr1 modules - I think I have some at my parents' house doing nothing. It should definitely improve your pc's speed either way, it wouldn't hurt at least.

Thanx, but I have plenty of DDR1, 512MB 1GB modules etc.

[littleD]

OK, after simply test, the fastest decoder for divx/xvid is libavcodec in ffdshow. Xvid (standalone or in ffdshow) and divx decoder make 1080p files unplayable.

[JimmyBarnes]

That Semprons/athlonsXP decode xvid 1080p. Now Agp radeon eg 3450 will be fine for htcp use.

Actually the clip you posted is DivX, not Xvid if you look at the PNG you posted, and as GSpot also confirms. DivX decoding is less CPU intensive than Xvid.

Anyway I tried the clip on my PCHT and it appears to play normally, smoothly and without pauses or jerking (unlike the problem Xvid 720p AVIs which led to this thread), but as it is simply a person dancing to music, the AV sync can't be checked.

[littleD]

Actually the clip you posted is DivX, not Xvid if you look at the PNG you posted, and as GSpot also confirms. DivX decoding is less CPU intensive than Xvid.
Divx is same as xvid. Only encoding settings may be different.

Anyway I tried the clip on my PCHT and it appears to play normally, smoothly and without pauses or jerking (unlike the problem Xvid 720p AVIs which led to this thread), but as it is simply a person dancing to music..

So, your pc is good. Now post me fragment of your encode. I will check this time.

the AV sync can't be checked.
Sure it can. Thats what the red and green lines for. Use EVR custom and press Ctrl-J. If you notice green line goes up, then A/V dissyncronization occurs.

[JimmyBarnes]

Sure it can. Thats what the red and green lines for. Use EVR custom and press Ctrl-J. If you notice green line goes up, then A/V dissyncronization occurs.

Which player does the above refer to?

[namaiki]

Media Player Classic Homecinema using EVR-Custom Pres. video renderer. The graph takes CPU usage as well, though.

[JimmyBarnes]

Media Player Classic Homecinema using EVR-Custom Pres. video renderer. The graph takes CPU usage as well, though.

How exactly?

hen I open an Xvid AVI in MPHC, I go to View, Renderer Settings, Presentation -can't see what you are referring to. And Ctrl+J as litttleD suggested is greyed out.

[namaiki]

Which video renderer are you using? It only applies to EVR-CP.
View-> Renderer settings-> display stats.

Make sure you have the latest of this:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2da43d38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b6652cd92a3&displaylang=en

[littleD]

And you need .Net Framework 3.5 installed too.

Edit:
OK Jimmy, now plz You tell me why your encode play at steady 50% cpu on my system without problem?? And You play 1080 flawlessly, but this 720 not? Theres some voodoo here.

Note about video properties. The amount of GMC s-frames is about 33% total, which is much (i think). Disable it in encoder.
Also use - by default- 2 max consecutive frame instead of 4. One frame would help playback even more.

But still dont know where is a problem. Try tweak encoding settings and check if it helps.