mkv, subtitles, and media players

[archaeo]

jdobbs,

First of all, many thanks for adding the option of output to mkv in the last build. I'm slowly moving away from disc backup to HDD storage, with playback thru a media player (in this case WDTV HD). The addition of mkv output was a welcome help to that :)

However, one issue with that I'm noticing is that subtitles are not showing up on the WDTV playback. I know that the subs are there (when selected) in the output that BDRebuilder creates, but from what I've read there's some issue with these media players that forces one to put an .srt in the folder with the video file in order for it to play. I've also read that the mkv format is the best container to use in order for subs to work in a media player like WDTV.
Not knowing exactly how this all works, but wishing to be able to output a file that has subtitles that my WDTV can play, I have a couple of questions - How does BDRB create or store subs? Does BDRB create subtitles in an .srt form in the working directory? Is it possible for BDRB to create an mkv output that contains the subs in a format that will play in the media player?

Any feedback (or education) on how to resolve this issue is much appreciated :thanks:

[deank]

I don't have WDTV but a quick google search shows that it doesn't support SUP/PGS subtitles and that's the Blu-ray subtitle format, which BD-Rebuilder will most probably use to store the subtitles in the MKV.

Your only option is to demux the subtitles, convert them to SUB/IDX (DVD format) with BDsup2sub and mux them back in the MKV.

SRT subtitles are text based and you can get such only by OCRing the original SUP (picture based) subtitles with a proper tool.

Dean

//

There was a post at another forum (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1408998.html) that m2ts files are supported with PGS subtitles with the latest beta firmware: http://www.wdc.com/wdtvlive_prerelease/.

[jdobbs]

jdobbs,

First of all, many thanks for adding the option of output to mkv in the last build. I'm slowly moving away from disc backup to HDD storage, with playback thru a media player (in this case WDTV HD). The addition of mkv output was a welcome help to that :)

However, one issue with that I'm noticing is that subtitles are not showing up on the WDTV playback. I know that the subs are there (when selected) in the output that BDRebuilder creates, but from what I've read there's some issue with these media players that forces one to put an .srt in the folder with the video file in order for it to play. I've also read that the mkv format is the best container to use in order for subs to work in a media player like WDTV.
Not knowing exactly how this all works, but wishing to be able to output a file that has subtitles that my WDTV can play, I have a couple of questions - How does BDRB create or store subs? Does BDRB create subtitles in an .srt form in the working directory? Is it possible for BDRB to create an mkv output that contains the subs in a format that will play in the media player?

Any feedback (or education) on how to resolve this issue is much appreciated :thanks: I'm not adding subs to the MKV output right now. That's something I'll add soon.

[archaeo]

Yes, these subtitles seem to be a complicated business when playing through media players... sigh.

Having to go through the process of demuxing and remuxing just for subs as an additional process is not a attractive activity. I could probably learn the languages faster than I could convert all the titles :D

In my mind it seems more or less a firmware issue with WDTV. This should be worked out at that level. I suppose when the technology is still in development, these things haven't been fully worked through.

@deank: Thanks for the link, I'll look into upgrading firmware. I think the link is for WDTV Live, which is the latest hardware. I have the WDTV std, which hopefully remains supported with firmware upgrades.

@jdobbs: Sounds good. That said, it seems that the issue may still lie with WDTV's ability to play bluray subs, even in an mkv container. I'm seeing various reports that some do some don't play... difficult to track down what works and doesn't. thanks


EDIT: from the WDTV support site 6/09:

Subtitle files are now supported in SMI, SUB, ASS and SSA formats, as well as the more common SRT. We had previously had trouble making subtitles display at all, but now they're fine.

"but now they're fine" ...well, sort of - They apparently still don't play the SUP, PGS format.

[setarip_old]

@archaeo

Hi!

I believe all of the sub formats you've quoted about are text-based subs, while PGS/SUP arew graphics based...

[archaeo]

QUOTE=setarip_old;1391041]@archaeo

Hi!

I believe all of the sub formats you've quoted about are text-based subs, while PGS/SUP arew graphics based... [/QUOTE]

To the laymen like myself, what does this mean? I guess it could be that the media player won't be using graphic based subs (PGS, SUP) anytime soon...
I see from googling that WDTV can use ASS (no pun intended) in their MKV subtitle playback. I'm not sure where this all leads, except that it's very confusing.
It may end up that even if jdobbs adds MKV subs, there's no certainty that they will be able to play in my WDTV.

here's the list from WDTV site support:

10952

[Category 5]

Well, I have been playing BD revuilder output through the WD TV live player by simply browsing to the stream folder and selecting the m2ts file for the movie, and the subs not only work that way...they are on by default. So at least the WD is handling the subs correctly. it is simply that they aren't included in the MKVs

[archaeo]

Well, I have been playing BD revuilder output through the WD TV live player by simply browsing to the stream folder and selecting the m2ts file for the movie, and the subs not only work that way...they are on by default. So at least the WD is handling the subs correctly. it is simply that they aren't included in the MKVs

Interesting... I wonder if the 'live' version has different settings. The list that I've included in previous post dos not indicate it would support it :confused::confused:
I've been playing m2ts too, but cannot even see the subs listed in the display mode. It just reads 'no subtitles'. Even when I know they are there.

@Category 5: Are you backing up BD's as a full backup, or movie only?

[setarip_old]

@archaeo To the laymen like myself, what does this mean?It means that "everybody and their brothers" who provide software and/or hardware playback capability all know how to output text-based subtitles - and few are presently capable of outputting graphics-based subtitles (e.g. SUP/PGS in which the "letters" are actually .BMP "pictures")

[GaPony]

To the laymen like myself, what does this mean? I guess it could be that the media player won't be using graphic based subs (PGS, SUP) anytime soon...
I see from googling that WDTV can use ASS (no pun intended) in their MKV subtitle playback. I'm not sure where this all leads, except that it's very confusing.
It may end up that even if jdobbs adds MKV subs, there's no certainty that they will be able to play in my WDTV.

here's the list from WDTV site support:



You might be able to search sites like subscene.com or opensubtitles.org and find .srt subtitles, which can easily be added to the .mkv file, using mkvmerge. I've had some luck in doing this, but admittedly, not alot. There is often alot of editing required which makes it more trouble than its worth, in many cases.

[ibanez]

jdobbs,

First of all, many thanks for adding the option of output to mkv in the last build. I'm slowly moving away from disc backup to HDD storage, with playback thru a media player (in this case WDTV HD). The addition of mkv output was a welcome help to that :)

However, one issue with that I'm noticing is that subtitles are not showing up on the WDTV playback.

Hi, I second your comment about adding in the option to output to MKV; it's something I wrote in Feature requests some time back and will be very useful as I often use the WDTV and hdd also (but using BD-RB to shrink the main movie). I like using MKV with the WDTV as the WDTV recognises the chapter points in an MKV, making it the most complete option.

Your only option is to demux the subtitles, convert them to SUB/IDX (DVD format) with BDsup2sub and mux them back in the MKV.

I use BDsup2sub also and convert from SUP to SUB/IDX and Mux them in with Mkvmerge. The other advantage of BDsup2sub is you can extract just the 'forced subtitles', and then turn on the subtitle track by default. Even if you could include the SUP files into an MKV, the WDTV does not support it currently.

I'm not adding subs to the MKV output right now. That's something I'll add soon.

Can you have an MKV with SUP/PGS currently? I rememeber the request being made to Mosu some time back to add it to Mkvmerge, and it was on the 'to do' list, but I haven't seen it added since then (or is there another muxer that will do it?). Or would you use SUB/IDX ? In that's the case the ability to just extract the 'forced' subtitles (and then have the subtitle track on by default) like BDsup2sub, would be very useful.

There was a discussion on subs not long ago in BD-RB. Would it be possible to identify subtitle tracks in BD-RB that have a 'forced' component, so you know which tracks you need to include? (I think I read in an Eac3to thread that you couldn't tell if a SUP/PGS had 'forced' subtitles until it was extracted (unlike Hd-dvd)). That would ensure you don't leave out the subtitle track with the 'forced subs' (which could either be in the main subtitle track, or a seperate one).

[archaeo]

followup question: If I have a .sub file from the film already extracted, is there a way that BDRB can insert that subtitle file into the final output as it is? Not asking BDRB to extract, but just to insert the file into the final mkv output.

[kate59588]

There is blu-ray ripper tool that has taken SUP sub into consideration, and convert .sup subtitle to vobsub when rippping blu-ray to mkv. Called bytecopy or what. This is a good solution before hd media players adding sup to their format support list.

[setarip_old]

@kate59588

Hi!

Once again, you've failed to mention the $42 price of this program, just as you forgot in this other post (and were advised by "Sharktooth"):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1478366&postcount=4

Your posts could very readily be considered SPAM...

[MilesAhead]

I have the first generation WD HDTV player for USB with the last firmware update they provided. At least in the 1st gen player the firmware update added idx/sub support as external files. Other than DVD iso images etc. that have native subtitle support, what I'm finding best for English subs is to use idx/sub external files with the same base name as the video in the same folder.

The .srt subs are displayed in too small a font with too thin a border. Even if I have a good .srt I usually put it through AviAddXSubs to create idx/sub. Unfortunately AviAddXSub only likes ansi text. For unicode you need another app. For myself I prefer Fontin TTF for Windows font. The size of the font you choose to use should vary depending on the amount the video gets upsized. If it's SD upconverted you want a smaller font than if it's 1080P and somewhere in the middle if it's 720P etc..

Note that WD only supports black white and gray "colors" for idx/sub. I use white for text and black for anti-alias and border with a border thickness of 3. If you use AviAddXSubs on the Configuration 2 page check the box "YUV values at idx/sub color palette" for play on the WD player. It will look funky like a dull pink on the PC but it will look great on the WD player.

[Chetwood]

I don't have WDTV but a quick google search shows that it doesn't support SUP/PGS subtitles
It does support them but only in a M2TS container and but not in MKV.

I've also read that the mkv format is the best container to use in order for subs to work in a media player like WDTV.
It's not as explained at great length on the official forums (http://community.wdc.com/t5/General-Discussions/WD-TV-LIVE-persistent-subtitle-issues/td-p/95698).

[MilesAhead]

It does support them but only in a M2TS container and but not in MKV.


WD discussion leads to a lot of confusion since there are several generations, and types Live and USB only, not to mention firmware updates.

Gen 1 USB player doesn't support PGS no way no how, with the last firmware update available. Believe me, I've tried. Later generations may, but I don't have them to try. Gen 1 supports DVD subtitles when playing an iso image, but even with an entire BluRay structure to work with, it won't cough up PGS subs.

Typically I take the output from BDRB and rename the .m2ts file of the main movie to the name of the flick. If that's all that was required to play PGS subs in Gen 1 player I'd have been home free a long time ago. :)

[Chetwood]

Well, the WDTV 1st gen manual only lists SRT as supported format.

[MilesAhead]

Well, the WDTV 1st gen manual only lists SRT as supported format.

Since I have the player I thought I'd provide info more current than the manual. You have to apply the last firmware update to get the idx/sub support. Always a bit of a risk but it went smoothly in my case. The firmware update was in 2009 so it's looks like they aren't joking when they say there will not be another for the gen 1 player. Seems like it never existed. If you look at the product list it ain't even there. But from a consumer review by someone who owns both gen 1 and gen 2 I'm told the upconversion is better in gen1. One reason I don't buy a newer model. That and a hundred odd dollars. :)