Emulating SU-DH1/Mixamp (DTS/DD -> headphone adapters) functionality in Win7? [Archive]

jalyst

10th March 2010, 13:35

Apologies right up if this not the correct sub-forum...
Considering my query relates to digital audio capture, I felt this sub-forum would be most pertinent.

As the heading suggests, I'm wanting to input DTS/DD encoded content into my HTPC, & decode it into DH or a similar format.

A user at Head-Fi mentioned that he vaguely recalls the AC3 project developing a filter which enables such functionality for cards with digi-in.
If the project's dead or non-existent....

Then I guess I'll need to look at getting a 2nd card (something from the audigy series?) that offers functionality like this.
My primary card is a Xonar Essence ST, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have digi-in, so I'll need a 2nd card irrespective of the projects status.

Essentially I want to mimic all the functionality of these two devices:
AudioCubes.com - JVC SU-DH1 Surround Headphone Adapter - SU-DH1 - (http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?products_id=1633)
Astro Gaming | Professional Gaming Equipment | MixAmp™ (http://www.astrogaming.com/products/detail/69/MixAmp/)

Both have their weaknesses and strengths, but I figured so long as DRM isn't a total obstacle in Win7...
Then I could end-up with a system that's just as functional, perhaps more flexible, and definitely better quality.

Has anyone tried anything like this, or heard of someone that's gotten close?
Thoughts, advice, or experiences much appreciated!

Ghitulescu

14th March 2010, 18:30

I'm not really sure what you're for?
Any 1:1 audiocard with digital input would record DTS/DD, provided the kmixer is bypassed (use ASIO or similar).

jalyst

15th March 2010, 04:25

So only the older DD/DTS formats are possible, not the newer ones as there's not enough bandwidth via S/PDIF, even w/bit-streamed right?
I don't suppose you could briefly outline the procedure, & advise which card is ideal (IYO) for digital audio input?

I already have an Essence ST + H6 I'd like to use for analogue output, but it doesn't have digi-in (S/PDIF).

Have you heard of anyone successfully bit-streaming or sending multi-ch PCM to their Graphics card (or sound-card if one exists with HDMI-in); decompressing (if bit-streamed), decoding, & then doing DAC? (or 1st running through a HRTF filter in ffdshow or ac3filter)

Thank-you!

Ghitulescu

15th March 2010, 08:47

Please state your problem ... clear and unambiguous.

Any profi card would record anything 1:1 if the incoming signal fulfils the requirements of IEC 958. Expect to pay at least 200€/$ for such a card, new, ...

BTW: what has to do your PURE AUDIO problem with VIDEO CAPTURING?

jalyst

15th March 2010, 08:54

I want a card+software capable of receiving bit-streamed (or multi-ch PCM) DTS & DD; including the new HD formats.
And instead of passing through to a receiver, I wish to decompress (if bit-streamed), decode, & convert to analogue on the PC.

Is this clear enough? Thank-you

jalyst

15th March 2010, 09:52

Let me know if you need further clarification. Thank-you.

Ghitulescu

15th March 2010, 14:35

I want a card+software capable of receiving bit-streamed (or multi-ch PCM) DTS & DD; including the new HD formats.
To my knowledge there's none.
I want a card+software capable of receiving bit-streamed (or multi-ch PCM) DTS & DD ...
Any profi card or some chosen amateur one (no Creative, unless willing to hunt for drivers and stuff).
And instead of passing through to a receiver, I wish to decompress (if bit-streamed), decode, & convert to analogue on the PC.
Impossible, unless you want to use the analog out of your PC, which are much inferior to the audio card you needed in the first question. I won't help you "pervert" the audio in this manner :devil:
You can however decompress the digital audio, process it and resend it as PCM to the amplifier/receiver (everything in the digital domain). Which process should obey some restrictions.

Anyway, except for the DD/DTS capture, everything is just a waste of time... but it's yours :p

jalyst

15th March 2010, 16:02

To my knowledge there's none.

Nooooo!!!!!! I just died a thousand deaths.... :)

Any profi card or some chosen amateur one (no Creative, unless willing to hunt for drivers and stuff).

Huh, can you be more specific please?

Impossible, unless you want to use the analogue-out of your PC, which are much inferior to the audio card you needed in the first question. I won't help you "pervert" the audio in this manner :devil:

Huh, but there's some very nice sound-cards for analogue-out, granted without decent amplification they aren't the best for speakers, but that's easily rectified.
And the Essence ST + H6 for e.g. is right up there; having an analogue stage (DAC/OPAMPS) that is comparable (if not equal) to very best receivers.

You can however decompress the digital audio, process it and resend it as PCM to the amplifier/receiver (everything in the digital domain). Which process should obey some restrictions.

The idea is to avoid an AVR or separates; at least at this stage.

Anyway, except for the DD/DTS capture, everything is just a waste of time... but it's yours :p

What do you mean by that?

Ghitulescu

15th March 2010, 16:13

1. ESI, M-Audio, Roland, Apogee, have yourself a look in the net
2. You can use the card under item 1 also for audio out, these are full duplex, even at different rates (for instance: input 88.2kHz, output 192kHz)
3. I still do not understand what you're after and why you need a PC to listen DTS/DD in headphones .... you want a mixer? then use the digital input that you have and use the default kmixer - for headphones it won't make any difference

jalyst

15th March 2010, 16:22

1. What about the D2X or HDAV1.3?

2. Not necessary, already own Essence ST + H6 (daughter board for 7.1 analogue-out)

3. Well it just so happens that I'll have a HTPC/PVR, so I figured I may as well use it instead of a device like SU-DH1 for stereo surround simulation.
And I figured if this HTPC can receive, decode, & convert Dolby True-HD & DTS HD-MA for headphones or speakers, all the better!

Why, do you see something wrong with that logic?

Ghitulescu

15th March 2010, 17:59

@1 I'm not in the computers, the PC is for me a tool only, an accessory to audio and video processing, nothing more. Processing, not playing :p
@2 need nothing more then :) the opinions on Asus xonar are very good (it also supports ASIO which is a must).
@3 a receiver is cheaper and works better than a PC in pass-through. You'll need anyway one to use the analog out, unless you want to listen in headphones.

jalyst

16th March 2010, 08:22

@3 a receiver is cheaper and works better than a PC in pass-through. You'll need anyway one to use the analog out, unless you want to listen in headphones.

It's not cheaper if I already have most of the parts needed to emulate an AVR.
Why would I need an AVR for multi-ch analogue-out?
I said I have the H6, which adds 7.1 analogue-out to the Essence ST.

Prolly the best solutions I've come across so far are: HDAV1.3 or Hometheatre HD (http://www.guru3d.com/article/auzentech-xfi-home-theater-hd-71-soundcard-review/11)

Quote: A main feature of the HTHD 7.1 is offering HDMI 1.3a I/O to the end user which allows full resolution, high definition audio with no down sampling. A very interesting feature of the HTHD 7.1 is the use of an external receiver is NOT required to have support for these high definition standards.
While the use of an external receiver is an option, the card allows any speaker system connected to the card to output Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HDMA in full resolution.

Even more ideal would be to use my existing Core i3-530 + motherboard w/HDMI-in...
But I'm not sure if the Core i3's GPU is designed to receive A/V via HDMI & then decode/convert with approp. sware.
I doubt it is.....

The main reasons I want something like this is to;
1) Send digi-Audio (HD or non-HD) to my PC to create virtual surround in stereo (CMSS, DH etc)...
2) Have a PAP* compliant solution so I can receive & play or locally play BD A/V, for the times I'm too lazy to rip/convert BD's.

It's a shame that I prolly won't be able to redirect decoded DD & DTS formats to my Essence ST + H6 for superior analogue-out.
I suspect that'd break the PAP/xxx....
So for analogue-out of received or locally played HD DD & DTS, I'll be forced to use the same card.
Unless I've gone to the effort of ripping and converting beforehand...

*forgotten what video equivalent is called

Ghitulescu

16th March 2010, 09:26

Well, you won't need an AVR if you use headphones ;) that's for sure. You'd need an AVR as the line-out cannot drive passive loudspeakers. And the active ones are crap, so you'll end again in an expensive toys liga.

Secondly, the Auzen card looks promising, unfortunatelly it has some evident disavantages at the first glance (possibly other ones expect to be discovered during use): ASIO use only in a certain mode, some functions disabled in XP (maybe because XP doesn't have DRM in the core), HDMI-Video pass-through (at least it's 1:1), inability to work in parallel with another audio card (typically Creative). Wasted money (it gives you the impression that's a Supercallifragillistic professional-filled card, but it's full of restrictions, it's based on Creative technology, do I need to say more?).

That is, if you intend to use it as a "effects-box" between the BD player and the TV/AVR you can "effect" only the audio (pointless in my opinion). If you intend to capture/effect the video, you'll need a HDMI-video capture card, which doesn't have HDCP (useful for camcorders). So much about the user-friendliness of the digital era.

But if you intend to use it as a HDMI-out for PowerDVD, I think you'd be better with cheaper solutions.
It's not cheaper if I already have most of the parts needed to emulate an AVR.

You don't have most parts, you have different parts ...

Ghitulescu

16th March 2010, 09:31

Maybe if you draw a schematics of bits and parts and links (signal paths :p) and post it here, maybe I'll understand (finally, hopefully) what you try to achieve and why :)

jalyst

16th March 2010, 09:41

Well, you won't need an AVR if you use headphones ;) that's for sure. You'd need an AVR as the line-out cannot drive passive loudspeakers. And the active ones are crap, so you'll end again in an expensive toys liga.

Oh I realise when I want to use speakers that the H6 will need a discrete amp.
That's not a problem though, as I don't intend to use speakers, at least for now.

ASIO use only in a certain mode,

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you please elaborate?

some functions disabled in XP (maybe because XP doesn't have DRM in the core),

That's okay, I will be using Windows 7 anyway.

HDMI-Video pass-through (at least it's 1:1).

I don't care about HDMI-Video pass-through, I don't see how it'd be useful for me.

Wasted money (it gives you the impression that's a Supercallifragillistic professional-filled card, but it's full of restrictions, it's based on Creative technology, do I need to say more?).

I think you're thinking of their X-Fi series of cards; X-Fi forte etc.

That is, if you intend to use it as a "effects-box" between the BD player and the TV/AVR you can "effect" only the audio (pointless in my opinion). If you intend to capture/effect the video, you'll need a HDMI-video capture card, which doesn't have HDCP (useful for camcorders). So much about the user-friendliness of the digital era.

Huh?

But if you intend to use it as a HDMI-out for PowerDVD, I think you'd be better with cheaper solutions.

For example?

Ghitulescu

16th March 2010, 11:58

ASIO issues are in the manual - for what ASIO is or does, check the google or wiki.
-----------
But it's not clear if you can get a full HDMI input (from a bluray or SAT), split the audio from video, pass the video 1:1, perform effects on audio, remix A/V to HDMI out. I won't pay 250$ to see if it solely mixes its own audio with an input video, like mentioned in the manual. And I don't buy PC-HiFi things anyway :p.
------------
Anything based on Creative technology is extremely customer-fiendish. It was Creative that destroyed the fame/reputation of the otherwise excellent EMU audio-processor. Just think of the tons of drivers and services loads an audigy on your system, it reserves 3 IRQs for its solely use and resamples everything to 48kHz, unless cracked to work with ASIO. A similar priced profi card (entry level at this price), based on the same EMU, would load only the small ASIO driver and maybe its own HW-layer, and it will share the same IRQ with another one or two "sisters", all by keeping full duplex at various sample rates. And, like mine does, has drivers from W98 up to XP, including Mac and linuxes. With specs that are not marketing balooney, because they can be suit if not respected....
------------
Any nVidia with HDMI out would do the trick, if PowerDVD (or similar) consider it safe for HDTV content (any new card would do). Probably under 50$. Or even with DVI, as you'll output the audio with your H6.

jalyst

16th March 2010, 12:17

ASIO issues are in the manual - for what ASIO is or does, check the google or wiki.

okay thanks, I guess :)

-----------
But it's not clear if you can get a full HDMI input (from a bluray or SAT), split the audio from video, pass the video 1:1, perform effects on audio, remix A/V to HDMI out. I won't pay 250$ to see if it solely mixes its own audio with an input video, like mentioned in the manual. And I don't buy PC-HiFi things anyway :p.

If it's for DRM content like playing blue-rays I wouldn't be able to...
Unless the software player used as part of the PAP has a DH (or similar) filter built-in.

------------
Anything based on Creative technology is extremely customer-fiendish. It was Creative that destroyed the fame/reputation of the otherwise excellent EMU audio-processor. Just think of the tons of drivers and services loads an audigy on your system, it reserves 3 IRQs for its solely use and resamples everything to 48kHz, unless cracked to work with ASIO. A similar priced profi card (entry level at this price), based on the same EMU, would load only the small ASIO driver and maybe its own HW-layer, and it will share the same IRQ with another one or two "sisters", all by keeping full duplex at various sample rates. And, like mine does, has drivers from W98 up to XP, including Mac and linuxes. With specs that are not marketing balooney, because they can be suit if not respected....

But it's not based on any of the DSP's Creative uses, I'm pretty sure it's C-MEDIA like most of the Xonar's.

------------
Any nVidia with HDMI out would do the trick, if PowerDVD (or similar) consider it safe for HDTV content (any new card would do). Probably under 50$. Or even with DVI, as you'll output the audio with your H6.

For playing BR (bit-streamed or local) I doubt I'd be able to do this....
My understanding is that all GPU's that do HDMI audio input, only do so as a pass-through to AVRs.

And even if some GPU's are compatible with PAP compliant software for local processing...
There'd still have to be a local sound-card that's PAP compliant, so that the signal can at some point be forwarded for DAC.

Ghitulescu

17th March 2010, 08:47

What is your question now?

jalyst

20th March 2010, 09:10

Okay investigated further....

I've learned that there simply isn't any hardware in existence that does HDMI-in.
Primarily because the HDCP patent license forbids HDMI devices that allow access to decrypted data.

So the best I can hope to pass to my PC (via S/PDIF) is DD or DTS 5.1.
Not a big loss as I suspect many PS3 Games don't actually use HD audio*, and even more Xbox games won't.

But it is a fairly big loss for BD Movies as they always use HD audio, so LT I may get PAP capable card.
That's if I can't find a way to get my Essence ST to become PAP compliant (it's very similar to the HDAV1.3, which is).

There is a handful of XFi-based cards from creative and auzentech that do support S/PDIF-in (coax, optical, or both).
But I've found none that support PAP & decode on S/PDIF-in...

And aside from that I've since learned that all consumer level cards with S/PDIF-in...
Aren't designed to overcome de-synchronisation between audio and video that can occur.
They do not have an internal clock that syncs with the clock of the source...
Plus many others are adamant that despite it being possible to get s/pdif-in working on a PC.
It's always far too kludgey/flakey when switching between sources etc..

DH adapters however like the Mixamp and SU-DH1 do not suffer from this issue.
And as I'm mainly interested converting surround sound formats to stereo...
It doesn't matter that they can't do multi-channel analogue-out.....

So for the time being I'm prolly just going to make do with the SU-DH1...
It's clear that LT I'll need to get an AVR (or some "separates"), a PAP-compliant card, or both if I want HD audio muxed into stereo.

*HD audio = newish DD/DTS formats like: TrueHD & DTS-MA

Ghitulescu

20th March 2010, 14:29

Okay investigated further....

I've learned that there simply isn't any hardware in existence that does HDMI-in.
Primarily because the HDCP patent license forbids HDMI devices that allow access to decrypted data.

You're false on 2 counts:

There is, at least I know, 3 devices with HDMI in, including the well-known Blackmagic.
Secondly, you can't watch anything if the decryption were not posible, according to your logic, the TV attempting to decypt data is illegal. BTW, the signal is in clear over HDMI.

Nuances: HDMI-in is permitted for non-HDCP signals. It's logic, because HDCP is for consumers, and people behind the content (the producers) would never use HDCP in their processing gear.

And aside from that I've since learned that all consumer level cards with S/PDIF-in...
Aren't designed to overcome de-synchronisation between audio and video that can occur.
They do not have an internal clock that syncs with the clock of the source...
Plus many others are adamant that despite it being possible to get s/pdif-in working on a PC.
It's always far too kludgey/flakey when switching between sources etc..
The profi too, they are not designed to be syncronized to video, the synchro is done at the montage. At least not in the sense you want. If you're technically abile, you can extract the synch signal from video and route it to the wordsynch input of any profi audio card. It's no so easy ....
DH adapters however like the Mixamp and SU-DH1 do not suffer from this issue.
They do not attempt to put the digital data on the PCs' busses ...
And as I'm mainly interested converting surround sound formats to stereo...
It doesn't matter that they can't do multi-channel analogue-out.....

So for the time being I'm prolly just going to make do with the SU-DH1...
It's clear that LT I'll need to get an AVR (or some "separates"), a PAP-compliant card, or both if I want HD audio muxed into stereo.
You got, finally, the point :p

jalyst

20th March 2010, 14:50

You're false on 2 counts:
There is, at least I know, 3 devices with HDMI in, including the well-known Blackmagic.

Yes I knew of this but it does not have hardware encode, has poor support in Linux, & does it do Audio?
I am actually amazed there is a few such devices, given what was explained to me WRT to how the patent license works.

Secondly, you can't watch anything if the decryption were not posible, according to your logic, the TV attempting to decypt data is illegal.

Well of course I didn't mean display devices, I admit my wording was a bit poor ;)

BTW, the signal is in clear over HDMI.

Not sure what you mean by this?

Nuances: HDMI-in is permitted for non-HDCP signals. It's logic, because HDCP is for consumers, and people behind the content (the producers) would never use HDCP in their processing gear.

Intriguing point, I guess that explains why there is still a market for devices such as the blackmagic.

The profi too, they are not designed to be syncronized to video, the synchro is done at the montage. At least not in the sense you want. If you're technically abile, you can extract the synch signal from video and route it to the wordsynch input of any profi audio card. It's no so easy ....

Intriguing I don't suppose you could elaborate?
I had ruled out sound-cards on the basis that de-sync issues would be too problematic on consumer level cards.
But if it's avoidable, then I'd prefer to get a card with s/pdif that also is PAP-capable.
Although so far that's proving to be a rare beast!
Also what's this word "profi" you keep using, you seem to like it!? :p

They do not attempt to put the digital data on the PCs' busses ...

I'm sorry?

You got, finally, the point :p

Well I don't think there was any single point, just me learning a bunch of things.
Some of which you didn't seem too sure about in earlier posts :p

Ghitulescu

20th March 2010, 17:02

Yes I knew of this but it does not have hardware encode, has poor support in Linux, & does it do Audio?
I am actually amazed there is a few such devices, given what was explained to me WRT to how the patent license works.

I'm too, because the professionals use other busses to transfer data, maybe it was thought for camcorder owners or for [non-media-]enterprises, don't know...
Not sure what you mean by this?
HDCP just ensures the devices in the A/V-chain are safe, because the data is not encrypted - it's no technological possible to encrypt/decrypt these huge amounts of data in real time, I alredy feel sorry for these guys from Fox, Paramount, Disney, MGM etc. :p
Intriguing I don't suppose you could elaborate?
I had ruled out sound-cards on the basis that de-sync issues would be too problematic on consumer level cards.
But if it's avoidable, then I'd prefer to get a card with s/pdif that also is PAP-capable.
Although so far that's proving to be a rare beast!
Also what's this word "profi" you keep using, you seem to like it!? :p
I own such gear so I know what I'm takling about... BTW it's not what is labelled Professional just te be sold
The reason is that these offer you the highest liberty possible under in the digital world. You see, if you can see a 4th generation video you're lucky, as a consumer I mean, sometimes it takes 5 just to get out of the studio ;) - imagine this and SCMS / CPRM / CPPM / HDCP, you name it ... so no CP in the studio ... For dubbing purposes there's a tact generator that give the "exact hour" for the whole chain, the players know how to synch themselves to this signal (resampling the signal if needed) ... this is done mainly for checking or analog copies (if any) purposes ... as the whole cutting is performed on a PC farm.

The reason why audio cards are not bound to video it's simple, they are 2 distinct issues in the A/V world. There are 2 operators for a film camera (1 for TV camera) and 1 or more audio operators, the sound is taken separately. They are synch afterwards, in the studio, based on their timecodes.

But that's enough OT. Just buy your AVR and live happy ...
I'm sorry?
The devices you mentioned do not "alienate" any bit of music ... digital/analog in, analog out.

jalyst

21st March 2010, 23:13

I'm too, because the professionals use other busses to transfer data, maybe it was thought for camcorder owners or for [non-media-]enterprises, don't know...
HDCP just ensures the devices in the A/V-chain are safe, because the data is not encrypted - it's no technological possible to encrypt/decrypt these huge amounts of data in real time, I alredy feel sorry for these guys from Fox, Paramount, Disney, MGM etc. :p

Yeah given there's no obvious practical use such as capturing BD or other HDCP encrypted content, & considering studios would use different busses for much larger amts of data, I'm curious what it's useful for!? :confused:

I own such gear so I know what I'm takling about... BTW it's not what is labelled Professional just te be sold
The reason is that these offer you the highest liberty possible under in the digital world. You see, if you can see a 4th generation video you're lucky, as a consumer I mean, sometimes it takes 5 just to get out of the studio ;) - imagine this and SCMS / CPRM / CPPM / HDCP, you name it ... so no CP in the studio ... For dubbing purposes there's a tact generator that give the "exact hour" for the whole chain, the players know how to synch themselves to this signal (resampling the signal if needed) ... this is done mainly for checking or analog copies (if any) purposes ... as the whole cutting is performed on a PC farm.

I'm sorry it's not 100% clear to me what you're saying here...

Are you saying there's no way to use a consumer soundcard with some good software & clever configuration...
to stop audio decoded on my PC from becoming desynched with the video-out of my PS3 or Xbox?

You're saying that avoiding desync is only possible with enterprise set-ups?

The reason why audio cards are not bound to video it's simple, they are 2 distinct issues in the A/V world. There are 2 operators for a film camera (1 for TV camera) and 1 or more audio operators, the sound is taken separately. They are synch afterwards, in the studio, based on their timecodes.

Yeah that more-or-less makes sense to me, & was pretty-much my basic understanding already.

But that's enough OT. Just buy your AVR and live happy ...

Plasma/HTPC-PVR/Consoles/SU-DH1/Cable STB/some simple a/v switches (if a need is seen) will have to suffice for now.
AVR or "separates" will come one day, maybe sooner than I think! :)

The devices you mentioned do not "alienate" any bit of music ... digital/analog in, analog out.

LOL, sorry your English confused me! :devil:
You're right; they don't attempt to put the digital data on the PC busses.

Like most AVR's they have an output clock that can synch with the input source's clock, & hence avoid desynching.
Unlike soundcards, which are essentially capture devices, & so normally can't to auto-synch...

Or so I've been told :)

jalyst

21st March 2010, 23:26

I've actually realised that my on-board alc889 will probably be fine for BD playback!

I'll mostly use my Essence ST + H6 for "BD-quality" playback after first decrypting & transcoding.
But for the times I can't be bothered, I figured a PAP-compliant card would become handy!
Ideally some hacked Essence drivers* that enable player compatibility will appear, but that's unlikely.

Another thing I want (if it's possible to at least minimise a/v de-synch) is S/PDIF-in DD/DTS 5.1 decode.
But if the alc889 works for BD's, then it seems like a waste of $ to buy a card for only that purpose!

Nevertheless if it's possible to mitigate A/V de-synch....
And there's a cheap card with S/PDIF-in decode (ideally with the ability to reroute DAC to my Essence**), then I'd buy it.
But not before I bought a SU-DH1 or similar.....

And of course when I decide to get an AVR or "separates", my Corei3-530 + H57 Mobo can bit-stream.

*as it's very similar to HDAV1.3 in many respects
**probably not possible

Ghitulescu

22nd March 2010, 08:37

Any 5.1 audio card can be used for HD audio (Bluray) if the decoding is done in software (like PowerDVD & Co.), no need to buy expensive stuff here - - -

Any decent low budget audio card with ASIO drivers would capture anything you want (within the specs) on S/P-DIF in, provided you have the software decoders. In case the drivers won't allow you to reroute the things internally, just create a graph with GraphEdit and live happy. You need however DirectSound drivers or wrappers (pseudo DA drivers that mimic DA behaviuor using the original drivers).

jalyst

22nd March 2010, 09:20

Any 5.1 audio card can be used for HD audio (Bluray) if the decoding is done in software (like PowerDVD & Co.), no need to buy expensive stuff here - - -

Not just any card, it has to be PAP-compliant, and there isn't heaps of those. Luckily my on-board is...

Any decent low budget audio card with ASIO drivers would capture anything you want (within the specs) on S/P-DIF in, provided you have the software decoders.

Yeah I know that much, but any recommendations? Cheap preferably.

In case the drivers won't allow you to reroute the things internally, just create a graph with GraphEdit and live happy. You need however DirectSound drivers or wrappers (pseudo DA drivers that mimic DA behaviuor using the original drivers).

You're referring here to the ability to re-route the decoded DD/DTS 5.1 to the analogue-out of my ST?
If true I will definitely investigate further!

What about my other points/questions?
I don't suppose you could address them? No rush of course!

Thank-you very much.

Ghitulescu

22nd March 2010, 13:49

jalyst

22nd March 2010, 16:11

Well, my audio PC runs W98 ... no need to upgrade, why should I, if everything goes ok?
If you have problems with PMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_Media_Path) just downgrade, the XP licence is included both in Vista/7 Pro. You can use any source to obtain the binaries. You should have known of the DRM thing before attempting to overstep the customers' boundaries (drawn by media providers).

What has this got to do with the ability to play blu-ray discs?

Anyway I'm now pretty sure I've got a PAP solution via my on-board ALC889.
Unfortunately I'll probably be locked into using PowerDVD only....
But that's only for when I can't be bothered decrypting/transcoding the BD, & then using what I want.

Sorry I don't know any cheap and modern soundcard that is bit-perfect.

I'm not sure that it must be bit-perfect though, must it?
Mainly just capable of DD/DTS 5.1 decode of S/PDIF-in, and cheap!
If you don't know of any cards that fit that requirement, no problem.

Fopr rerouting issues, I asked you long time ago to provide a drawing of connections....

Oh I wasn't asking you how to do it...

I just wanted confirmation that re-routing decoded S/PDIF-in to my Essence ST for D->A conversion is possible.
If it is then I'll investigate the methods of approach myself.

About synching A/V from your PS3 - I haven't say they weren't in synch or they will go automatically out of synch, I said that you cannot synch one to the other. In other words, if they are not synched, you cannot do a resynch in hardware only (you may use reclock in software).

You seemed to be saying that avoiding or correcting de-synch was only possible in sophisticated enterprise set-ups.
Are you now saying that de-synch is preventable or correctable with a consumer-level soundcard & the right software?

My English describes generic issues, like PC bus (which can be anything that is used to transpost data in digital form, that's another nice sintagm, data in digital form ;)) ...

Sorry, I'm not really understanding you here.

What are the other questions, it's quite difficult to follow all the argumention line

I think this is about the only thing you've missed now:

Yeah given there's no obvious practical use such as capturing BD or other HDCP encrypted content, & considering studios would use different busses for much larger amts of data, I'm curious what it's useful for!?

Ghitulescu

22nd March 2010, 16:38

Yeah given there's no obvious practical use such as capturing BD or other HDCP encrypted content, & considering studios would use different busses for much larger amts of data, I'm curious what it's useful for!?Well, I did actually ... see here
I'm too, because the professionals use other busses to transfer data, maybe it was thought for camcorder owners or for [non-media-]enterprises, don't know...
There are movies made by small enterprises which can afford a HD camcorder but not a video processing suite (in full hardware), but would need a maximum quality (ie not using media, in other words live view, because if you use media you'll trigger the compression algorithm). I saw once a video from a manufacturer that filmed a certain phase in the production process in order to establish why this particular phase yielded a higher number of faults than the others.

What has this got to do with the ability to play blu-ray discs?
Nothing, has to do with the fact that W98 is not at all DRM protected and allows a direct hardware control. Most people simply jump to the newest technologies with no second thought, then complain about it, like it were the fault of the others. Vista was not even in alpha, when the serious testers warned about the DRM issue. You simply look now for a method to "crack" the DRM control, which per se is illegal in my country, but since you're not doing anything wrong ("pirate" the content) can be however allowed under the "interoperational connectivity" issue. Gray zone. XP is safer, as it's the last M$ OS without DRM (or a very weak one).

I'm not sure that it must be bit-perfect though, must it?
Mainly just capable of DD/DTS 5.1 decode of S/PDIF-in, and cheap!

If it's DD/DTS then it's a must, as you have access to the digital data only after it passes the kmixer, which resamples everything. It shouldn't resample DD/DTS (as most of them are 48kHz anyway) but remember that 1 bit could make a difference. So get one with ASIO drivers or see for a kmixer-patch.

I just wanted confirmation that re-routing decoded S/PDIF-in to my Essence ST for D->A conversion is possible.
If it is then I'll investigate the methods of approach myself.

Yes is then the answer, you can do it. Dig it for yourself.

You seemed to be saying that avoiding or correcting de-synch was only possible in sophisticated enterprise set-ups.
Are you now saying that de-synch is preventable or correctable with a consumer-level soundcard & the right software?

It's not always possible should a desynch be present (reclock has its own limits). And I said that profi soundcards do have a synch input, which is intended for something else (offtopic), but can however accept a synch signal from a video source, should one be able (electronic skills) to separate the synch signal from the video. I repeat, there's no such PC audiocard that features video-synch because it's not needed on a PC; you can find however standalone gear with this facility (because they are not computers), eg all postproduction audio-recorders.

jalyst

6th April 2010, 09:16

Well, I did actually ... see here

Yeah I was asking what else, aside from that...

There are movies made by small enterprises which can afford a HD camcorder but not a video processing suite (in full hardware), but would need a maximum quality (ie not using media, in other words live view, because if you use media you'll trigger the compression algorithm). I saw once a video from a manufacturer that filmed a certain phase in the production process in order to establish why this particular phase yielded a higher number of faults than the others.

Hmm not really getting you again, but I guess you're trying to provide an example where such a device may be useful.

Nothing, has to do with the fact that W98 is not at all DRM protected and allows a direct hardware control. Most people simply jump to the newest technologies with no second thought, then complain about it, like it were the fault of the others. Vista was not even in alpha, when the serious testers warned about the DRM issue. You simply look now for a method to "crack" the DRM control, which per se is illegal in my country, but since you're not doing anything wrong ("pirate" the content) can be however allowed under the "interoperational connectivity" issue. Gray zone. XP is safer, as it's the last M$ OS without DRM (or a very weak one).

Nah too many "goodies" in Win 7 to turn my back on it entirely.
Besides, BD are the only frustrating thing when it comes to DRM on win 7, and they can easily be decrypted, ripped & transcoded.

If it's DD/DTS then it's a must, as you have access to the digital data only after it passes the kmixer, which resamples everything. It shouldn't resample DD/DTS (as most of them are 48kHz anyway) but remember that 1 bit could make a difference. So get one with ASIO drivers or see for a kmixer-patch.

Well hopefully one of these is bit perfect & has a ASIO driver or kmixer-patch
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1387734#post1387734
What concerns me though is if any will work in Win 7....
I'm yet to investigate more carefully, I have higher priorities at the moment.

Yes is then the answer, you can do it. Dig it for yourself.

Well this is great!
Ideally I want to input DD/DTS, decode, and then re-route to my Essence so it can apply Dolby Headphones and do DAC.

It's not always possible should a desynch be present (reclock has its own limits). And I said that profi soundcards do have a synch input, which is intended for something else (offtopic), but can however accept a synch signal from a video source, should one be able (electronic skills) to separate the synch signal from the video. I repeat, there's no such PC audiocard that features video-synch because it's not needed on a PC; you can find however standalone gear with this facility (because they are not computers), eg all postproduction audio-recorders.

Not quite getting everything you're saying here...
Regardless I don't have $ for professional gear, so if I have de-synch problems I'll have to make do with re-clock.

I guess the chance of it occurring is increased by me wanting to re-route decoded DD/DTS to my Essence.
I imagine this would further increase lag/delay, and hence separation between Video and Audio.

Ghitulescu

11th April 2010, 06:28

Well hopefully one of these is bit perfect & has a ASIO driver or kmixer-patch
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1387734#post1387734
What concerns me though is if any will work in Win 7....
I'm yet to investigate more carefully, I have higher priorities at the moment.

All profi or semiprofi (prosumer) cards come with ASIO drivers and behold, they update the drivers also for the new OSes (like W7) should the company be still in business. For instance, Yamaha post FW updates for their CD-RW drives one year after they withdrew from the market.

Well this is great!
Ideally I want to input DD/DTS, decode, and then re-route to my Essence so it can apply Dolby Headphones and do DAC.

Since kmixer is avoided, and [almost] all these cards feature more than one input, the drivers will provide you a new mixer (from a simple switchboard to a full complex mixer, with routing capabilities), so just install it and see/wonder ...

Not quite getting everything you're saying here...
Regardless I don't have $ for professional gear, so if I have de-synch problems I'll have to make do with reclock. That's the name not a function ;)
I guess the chance of it occurring is increased by me wanting to re-route decoded DD/DTS to my Essence.
I imagine this would further increase lag/delay, and hence separation between Video and Audio.
No, it has to do with the audio card latency (and video if you process it, which is not the case I think). The Audiophile has a 2ms latency, which I'm sure you won't sense it.

jalyst

13th April 2010, 09:20

All profi or semiprofi (prosumer) cards come with ASIO drivers and behold, they update the drivers also for the new OSes (like W7) should the company be still in business. For instance, Yamaha post FW updates for their CD-RW drives one year after they withdrew from the market.

Yeah but even if they have drivers for Win7 will these cards still be able to capture bit-perfect DD or DTS? I'll find out soon enough I guess!

Since kmixer is avoided, and [almost] all these cards feature more than one input, the drivers will provide you a new mixer (from a simple switchboard to a full complex mixer, with routing capabilities), so just install it and see/wonder ...

Hmm, okay... I think I see what you're saying :)

That's the name not a function ;)

Yeah, I do realise that reclock is the name of the program ;)

No, it has to do with the audio card latency (and video if you process it, which is not the case I think). The Audiophile has a 2ms latency, which I'm sure you won't sense it.

You don't think re-routing decoded DD/DTS to my Essence to apply DH and then do DAC will add an extra element of delay between Audio and Video?

As long as the capture card has auto-sync, or so long as de-sync can be corrected by reclock... you think I'll have no problems from passing decoded DD/DTS to my Essence?

What's the "Audiophile", are you referring to the M-Audio card?

Ghitulescu

13th April 2010, 10:23

Yeah but even if they have drivers for Win7 will these cards still be able to capture bit-perfect DD or DTS? I'll find out soon enough I guess!
No, if they are that kind of cards. If it's not possible, then the manufacturer will not provide drivers for W7.
You don't think re-routing decoded DD/DTS to my Essence to apply DH and then do DAC will add an extra element of delay between Audio and Video?

As long as the capture card has auto-sync, or so long as de-sync can be corrected by reclock... you think I'll have no problems from passing decoded DD/DTS to my Essence?
Every processing requires a delay. A normal card, due to kmixer and it's own drivers has at least 50ms delay (it's called latency), even if it simply relays the audio unprocessed (audio in -> audio out, in fullduplex). What is extra comes naturally as extra :p

jalyst

13th April 2010, 12:57

No, if they are that kind of cards. If it's not possible, then the manufacturer will not provide drivers for W7.

I'm sorry?

Every processing requires a delay. A normal card, due to kmixer and it's own drivers has at least 50ms delay (it's called latency), even if it simply relays the audio unprocessed (audio in -> audio out, in fullduplex). What is extra comes naturally as extra :p

Now it sounds like you're agreeing with my original statement:
I guess the chance of it [AV de-sync] occurring is increased by me wanting to direct decoded DD/DTS to my Essence for DH & DAC.
I imagine this would further increase lag/delay [latency], and hence separation between Video and Audio...

Also you missed this:
What's the "Audiophile", are you referring to the M-Audio card?

And this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1390675#post1390675

Thank-you.

Ghitulescu

13th April 2010, 13:06

Now it sounds like you're agreeing with my original statement:
I guess the chance of it [AV de-sync] occurring is increased by me wanting to direct decoded DD/DTS to my Essence for DH & DAC.
I imagine this would further increase lag/delay [latency], and hence separation between Video and Audio...

Also you missed this:
What's the "Audiophile", are you referring to the M-Audio card?

And this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1390675#post1390675

A professional card is not allowed to change the music. So if the OS's architecture prevent the manufacturer to implement a bit-perfect driver, it won't release a driver for that particular OS. You would be then sorry, if you picked up a DRMed OS ;)

Regarding the second issue, I thought you're not interested in video. The latency is an important issue in studio, if one uses a PC-based mix and effect solution for a real-time application. Nevertheless, the video delay is much bigger than the audio, so you may not need to change the lip-synch setting after all :)

Yes, the Audiophile is that M-Audio card, cheap and good.

jalyst

13th April 2010, 13:26

A professional card is not allowed to change the music. So if the OS's architecture prevent the manufacturer to implement a bit-perfect driver, it won't release a driver for that particular OS. You would be then sorry, if you picked up a DRMed OS ;)

So you reckon none of the cards I've short-listed will have ASIO dvrs and be bit-perfect in Win7?
Are you sure of this, how can you be so certain?

Regarding the second issue, I thought you're not interested in video. The latency is an important issue in studio, if one uses a PC-based mix and effect solution for a real-time application. Nevertheless, the video delay is much bigger than the audio, so you may not need to change the lip-synch setting after all :)

I'm not interested in Video...
Video will be passed from an Xbox or PS3 straight to my display, or maybe via an AV-switch later.

But as no pro-sumer or consumer cards with S/PDIF-in are likely to have input/output clock auto-sync.
And as the captured audio is going to incur further latency through decoding, & delivery to my Essence for DH and DAC.
I'm concerned that Video and Audio will become heavily de-synced.

Yes, the Audiophile is that M-Audio card, cheap and good.

Great, thanks for clarifying!

And this?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1390675#post1390675

Thank-you

Ghitulescu

13th April 2010, 15:21

So you reckon none of the cards I've short-listed will have ASIO dvrs and be bit-perfect in Win7?
Are you sure of this, how can you be so certain?
Don't put words in my mouth (again ;)).
And as the captured audio is going to incur further latency through decoding, & delivery to my Essence for DH and DAC.
I'm concerned that Video and Audio will become heavily de-synced.
It works on your side, if your TV doesn't have a lip-synch setting.

jalyst

13th April 2010, 16:03

Don't put words in my mouth (again ;)).

LOL, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
I'm sorry if you think I am, & apologies if I've offended you?
I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

You seemed to be saying that because of DRM in Win7, bit-perfect DD/DTS capture wouldn't be possible.
Hence my question (below), which was designed to clarify what you meant:

So you reckon none of the cards I've short-listed will have ASIO dvrs and be bit-perfect in Win7?
So if this is not what you were saying, what were you trying to say?

It works on your side, if your TV doesn't have a lip-synch setting.

I'm sorry I'm not trying to be rude, but this makes no sense to me.
What are you saying, I don't see how it addresses my concern of increased latency.

And when you've got a minute or two, could you please "weigh-in" on this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1390675#post1390675)?
It's just 2 questions, I posed the second one to you many weeks ago.

Thank-you for all your help, patience, & understanding!

Ghitulescu

14th April 2010, 08:24

A professional card is not allowed to change the music. So if the OS's architecture prevent the manufacturer to implement a bit-perfect driver, it won't release a driver for that particular OS.
If you don't have an original driver (from M-Audio in the case of Audiophile) for W7 then you can't use it under W7 as a bit-perfect card, but as a normal one (generic drivers, compatibility mode etc.).
LOL, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
I'm sorry if you think I am, & apologies if I've offended you?
I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.
I'm not offended at all ;) you simply jump too easy to conclusions ;)
I'm sorry I'm not trying to be rude, but this makes no sense to me.
What are you saying, I don't see how it addresses my concern of increased latency.
Video processing needs time, this means latency. Not all TVs are capable of high-speed processing (my Pio does, other people need to set lip-synch to match the TV). So if your TV is not a relative of Speedy Gonzales the audio latency plays in your favour, if and only if you have a lip-synch issue (player -> TV). If not (lip-synch in player is set to 0, the same in TV) and you feel that the audio processing is delayed, then you need to resynch the video to audio (the easiest way is to set the lip-synch in player/, TV or both - if they allow you this setting).

Just get an AVR for this amount of money and all (most?) problems are gone. One that matches the Player or the TV.

You may also want to google for Audiophile, it sure has a forum or more.

jalyst

14th April 2010, 09:20

If you don't have an original driver (from M-Audio in the case of Audiophile) for W7 then you can't use it under W7 as a bit-perfect card, but as a normal one (generic drivers, compatibility mode etc.).

So you're saying Win7's architecture will prevent manufacturers from implementing bit-perfect drivers, resulting in them not releasing drivers for it?
Or are you just speculating that this may be a possibility?

I'm not offended at all ;) you simply jump too easy to conclusions ;)

I'm glad you're not!
You seemed to be saying that DRM in Win7 means there'd only be generic support, & hence no bit-perfect capable drivers.
But perhaps you were only speculating....

You may also want to google for Audiophile, it sure has a forum or more.

Is this meant to be a response to this?

And when you've got a minute or two, could you please "weigh-in" on this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1390675#post1390675)?
It's just 2 questions, I posed the second one to you many weeks ago.

Ghitulescu

14th April 2010, 14:17

So you're saying Win7's architecture will prevent manufacturers from implementing bit-perfect drivers, resulting in them not releasing drivers for it?
Or are you just speculating that this may be a possibility?
Half-speculating, as this happened in the past, both ways. It depends also on how long a product was on the market (life expectancy) and if a new product will replace that one. Also designing drivers to circumvent the OS's limitations needs time and specialists and lots of tests, which is an expensive procedure and poses also problems to the support agents (once again, expensive). Many consumer drivers simply simply act as an interface between the hardware and the HAL. And if the HAL doesn't have that interface it of no use. For instance, XP "forgot" to implement the CI interface for SAT-cards. Unless one manufacturer provides you with an updated part of the XP system (or MS itself, but no chance) or bypasses/hack it, nobody can use the card. And bypassing/hacking is illegal, manufacturers can be sued by MS for digging too much ;)

You seemed to be saying that DRM in Win7 means there'd only be generic support, & hence no bit-perfect capable drivers.
But perhaps you were only speculating....
You forgot the if ;) Again. I don't have any experience with W7. And I said that if W7 continues the policy of XP and aggravated with Vista, you may end with a system that prevent you from doing what you need/like, no matter what hardware you have. In other words, of course. W7 Ultimate allows you to use generic XP drivers. Which is not a guarantee however that it would work as under a native XP. Please notice the conditional (may, if, could) which emphasises a hypothesis.
Is this meant to be a response to this?[/I]
I answered your question long time ago.

jalyst

15th April 2010, 07:08

Half-speculating, as this happened in the past, both ways. It depends also on how long a product was on the market (life expectancy) and if a new product will replace that one. Also designing drivers to circumvent the OS's limitations needs time and specialists and lots of tests, which is an expensive procedure and poses also problems to the support agents (once again, expensive). Many consumer drivers simply simply act as an interface between the hardware and the HAL. And if the HAL doesn't have that interface it of no use. For instance, XP "forgot" to implement the CI interface for SAT-cards. Unless one manufacturer provides you with an updated part of the XP system (or MS itself, but no chance) or bypasses/hack it, nobody can use the card. And bypassing/hacking is illegal, manufacturers can be sued by MS for digging too much ;)

You forgot the if ;) Again. I don't have any experience with W7. And I said that if W7 continues the policy of XP and aggravated with Vista, you may end with a system that prevent you from doing what you need/like, no matter what hardware you have. In other words, of course. W7 Ultimate allows you to use generic XP drivers. Which is not a guarantee however that it would work as under a native XP. Please notice the conditional (may, if, could) which emphasises a hypothesis.

Okay, well I'll know for sure when I analyse my finalists cards in greater depth!
Which is a pretty low priority for now, as I'll have my JVC SU-DH1 soon :)

I answered your question long time ago.

You did, where?

Cheers

Ghitulescu

15th April 2010, 07:45

You did, where?

I said that M-Audios are good and cheap (relatively ;)).

If you refer back to a back reference, yes, indeed, no consumer sound card does DD/DTS decoding in hardware. But the thread was not about decoding DD/DTS in hardware, was about using your PC, that is in software. Decoding is one, bit-perfect is another one.

jalyst

15th April 2010, 07:51

No I was asking whether you agree with HT-Omega's claim (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1389426#post1389426)...

And also why you prefer the M-Audio over the 2-3 other consumer/prosumer card options I have?

Ghitulescu

15th April 2010, 09:03

No I was asking whether you agree with HT-Omega's claim (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1389426#post1389426)
the answer was already given, but here again
If you refer back to a back reference, yes, indeed, no consumer sound card does DD/DTS decoding in hardware. But the thread was not about decoding DD/DTS in hardware, was about using your PC, that is in software. Decoding is one, bit-perfect is another one.
But maybe I'm not sure what do you understand by claim, HT simply asserted something, a statement, if you like. To ask for a DD/DTS licence, well, this is expensive and not very marketable (how many users do you think do really need an on-board DD/DTS decoder, when they need to pay extra, say 50$ for a 5.1), while the profi ones need no decoder as their manufacturers assume you have the licence of a DD/DTS reference decoder (a profi user has to have if s/he's in DD/DTS business).

But again this is OT, you want to do this in software ....
And also why you prefer the M-Audio over the 2-3 other consumer/prosumer card options I have?
I didn't say I prefer, I said that Audiophile is a good card for your task. It was the only one you mentioned.

jalyst

15th April 2010, 09:24

the answer was already given, but here again <snip>... But maybe I'm not sure what do you understand by claim, HT simply asserted something, a statement, if you like. To ask for a DD/DTS licence, well, this is expensive and not very marketable (how many users do you think do really need an on-board DD/DTS decoder, when they need to pay extra, say 50$ for a 5.1), while the profi ones need no decoder as their manufacturers assume you have the licence of a DD/DTS reference decoder (a profi user has to have if s/he's in DD/DTS business). But again this is OT, you want to do this in software ....

But their assertion was that no cards can do s/pdif-in capture and decode, irrespective of whether the card does the decoding in hw or sw.
They claim this is because of licensing restrictions....

What's an example of a profi card?

I didn't say I prefer, I said that Audiophile is a good card for your task. It was the only one you mentioned.

There's a few others mentioned in that thread...
But if you've only had experiences with the m-audio audiophile then I guess you can only comment on it.

Cheers

Ghitulescu

15th April 2010, 10:30

But their assertion was that no cards can do s/pdif-in capture and decode, irrespective of whether the card does the decoding in hw or sw.
They claim this is because of licensing restrictions....
The red passage is what they said, the blue one is what you understand, but not what they said (which would be incorrect). I'm afraid I did not spot the blue passage in their assertion, which BTW is a correct one (the assertion that no DD/DTS decoders are present on the audio card), as is created by the company attorneys. That you don't understand what they say it not their fault, even if they do this on purpose, as there's thin line between "legal issues" and "marketing issues".

BTW, a verb is missing in this sentence "there is no PCI type sound card which can AC3 signal from S/PDIF input". Can what?
But if you've only had experiences with the m-audio audiophile then I guess you can only comment on it.

I don't have any experience with that particular card, I use something else. But that was the only product you named it and I agreed it's a good one for your purpose.

-=-=-
However

This issue is irrelevant for you, I don't see why you spend so much time and energy to investigate.

Secondly, the second issue seems to become also irrelevant, as you'll nevertheless buy the SU-DH1.

So I think it's time to stop this off-topic thread (what does it belong to Video capture I don't know, maybe a mod can answer).