MainConcept Reference 2.0 is out

[dand]

MainConcept Reference 2.0 is out, check it out...

[shon3i]

Nice, what version of Mainconcept SDK is used?

And does it support all advanced options that can be found in Sonic Cinevision? Like several AQ modes

[mp3dom]

I think also Rhozet uses the latest SDK from MainConcept. It has the same options as CineVision available to the user.

[roozhou]

Nice, what version of Mainconcept SDK is used?

And does it support all advanced options that can be found in Sonic Cinevision? Like several AQ modes
Current version of Sonic Cinevision is using an outdated version of MainConcept SDK(~2006). Please wait for new version of CV with up-to-date MainConcept AVC/VC1/MPEG2 encoder.

[shon3i]

Current version of Sonic Cinevision is using an outdated version of MainConcept SDK(~2006). Please wait for new version of CV with up-to-date MainConcept AVC/VC1/MPEG2 encoder.
I think i have Cinevision 3 IIRC, i didn't check which SDK uses. Anyway x264 will soon replace all my H264 encoders :)

[roozhou]

I think i have Cinevision 3 IIRC, i didn't check which SDK uses. Anyway x264 will soon replace all my H264 encoders :)

Yes, i was referring to CineVision 3.0.

[mp3dom]

I think i have Cinevision 3 IIRC, i didn't check which SDK uses. Anyway x264 will soon replace all my H264 encoders :)

Yeah, maybe only progressive encodes at the moment :)

[kieranrk]

Yeah, maybe only progressive encodes at the moment :)

Interlaced will probably beat any mbaff encoder anyway.

[mp3dom]

You mean actually or in the near future? Anyway, nice!

[shon3i]

I just checked Reference 2, and it contain encoder from sdk 8.5, which is very very fresh :), and GUI come with all advanced options such AQ. I didn't encode yet, but i think this is big step for Mainconcept to back on H264 scene :)

[aegisofrime]

A very noob question here, but I suppose judging by the screenshots on Mainconcept's website, one can't use Avisynth with it? It looks to be a very consumer oriented, overly user-friendly application.

[shon3i]

Good thing is aslo that support 10-bit encoding

[mp3dom]

The previous Reference supports AVS files (not directly, but you can use the *.* filter and point to avs file and it will be recognized as AVI) so it seems strange that the new version doesn't support it

[poisondeathray]

Good thing is aslo that support 10-bit encoding

as a source or encoding for export?

[shon3i]

as a source or encoding for export?
Prue 10-bit encoding, output is 10-bit. Support High 10 Profile.

AVC-Intra Class 50 and 100 support.

I think is need to deep test of this :)

[Blue_MiSfit]

Oooooh!!

This is integrated with the latest Rhozet release? I have a big farm at work. Maybe I can run some x264 comparison encodes for VOD type scenarios - aka 9mbps CBR 1080p, 4.5mbps CBR 720p, and 2mbps CBR 480p

~MiSfit

[mp3dom]

Reading their press-release seems that the latest version (3.13 or 3.14 or something similar) improves the AVC encoding using the latest SDK from MainConcept (but I don't know if it's the 8.5 version mentioned by shon3i). Anyway it has all the options previously available on CineVision.

[shon3i]

Reading their press-release seems that the latest version (3.13 or 3.14 or something similar) improves the AVC encoding using the latest SDK from MainConcept (but I don't know if it's the 8.5 version mentioned by shon3i). Anyway it has all the options previously available on CineVision.
Yes but Cinevision even now in version 3 (i just checked) use SDK version 7.0 - 7.4, Mainconcept reference 2 not restricted to Blu-Ray so can use full features of H264.

[poisondeathray]

shon3i are you going to do some tests when you get a chance? :)

[roozhou]

Yes but Cinevision even now in version 3 (i just checked) use SDK version 7.0 - 7.4, Mainconcept reference 2 not restricted to Blu-Ray so can use full features of H264.
The new version will use 8.6 SDK.

[Sagittaire]

Well I check 8.5 SDK and this realise seem really interessing

news options:
- p and b frame weight pred
- Custom matrix quantisation
- New AQ option (previous are luma, contrast and complexity)
- Adaptative deblocking

Reference gui seem little buggy with limitation:
- bref and pyramid buggy
- no CQM, b weight pred, adaptative deblocking setting
- inter and intra 8*8 desactived by default

[shon3i]

I think some features like adaptive deblocking is turned on by default in reference. I get original sharp even with 0:0 setting

[Dark Shikari]

I really hope this "reference" is some sort of practical joke.

(500kbps 2-pass, max settings, x264 partition/frametype options set to be comparable, Mainconcept using +60% complexity mask, which seemed to give very vaguely similar quantizer results to x264's AQ)
Mainconcept / x264
(NB: x264 was ~7% smaller in this test)
http://i49.tinypic.com/eqp1nb.pnghttp://i46.tinypic.com/20zskeg.png

(2500kbps 2-pass, max settings, roughly the same as above)
Mainconcept / x264
(NB: x264 was ~3% larger in this test)
http://i46.tinypic.com/33f3x8p.pnghttp://i46.tinypic.com/90c6mc.png

I mean seriously, I remember previous versions doing better than this. Or maybe x264's gotten better faster than Mainconcept has (since the last comparison).

[iwod]

I just checked Reference 2, and it contain encoder from sdk 8.5, which is very very fresh :), and GUI come with all advanced options such AQ. I didn't encode yet, but i think this is big step for Mainconcept to back on H264 scene :)

How is is fresh when newest is 8.6?

[iwod]

@DS - You mention previously that X264 will be available for commercial product... any news yet?

[Blue_MiSfit]

wooooow. I just just interest in Mainconcept again :)

Make me a batch encoding system like Carbon Coder with x264, and a native ProRes decoder. I'll pay you millions of dollars :)

[Dark Shikari]

@DS - You mention previously that X264 will be available for commercial product... any news yet?Really don't want to derail this thread too much more, but the current status is we have about 95% of the rights, we're negotiating with Avail Media, and we're working on our actual license agreement for commercial licenses.

I would say "expect it by summer".

[bob0r]

Fail has a version, version 2.0.
OUT NOW!

[Sagittaire]

Unfortunaly and curiousely Reference don't activate highest possible quality:
- grain optimisation
- pyramid and bref
- adaptative quantisation
- 8*8 inter and intra

IMO reference developpeur doesn't know really well the Mainconcept SDK codec ... lol


I really hope this "reference" is some sort of practical joke

yes ... because I obtain better quality with really old 2006 CLI but with all possible command line.

[iwod]

Unfortunaly and curiousely Reference don't activate highest possible quality:
- grain optimisation
- pyramid and bref
- adaptative quantisation
- 8*8 inter and intra

IMO reference developpeur doesn't know really well the Mainconcept SDK codec ... lol




yes ... because I obtain better quality with really old 2006 CLI but with all possible command line.

Arh.. so any comparison on SDK 8.5 / 8.6 with best settings?

Anyway, where can i find changelog for these updates?

[TEB]

I too agree on this, there are many companies in my field that would pay alot for a opensource system with paid help/consultant hours that roughly would be rhozet carbon coder + x264 in one "product", one can even make a payable pro version that would include options that companies would pay for..

br TE



Really don't want to derail this thread too much more, but the current status is we have about 95% of the rights, we're negotiating with Avail Media, and we're working on our actual license agreement for commercial licenses.

I would say "expect it by summer".

[iwod]

Well, it would at least save us poor soul from those absolute crap H.264 encoder that everyone is using.

[IgorC]

It will be more reasonable to look at Elecard encoder. Mainconcept and Divx are nothing more but Elecard H.264 encoder.

[poisondeathray]

It will be more reasonable to look at Elecard encoder. Mainconcept and Divx are nothing more but Elecard H.264 encoder.

Don't you have it backwards? Elecard used to license from MC (as do dozens of other companies), but released their own encoder about a year ago

[IgorC]

First MC H.264 encoders were pure Elecard's. MC has bought all rights for Elecard H.264 encoder.
That's why Elecard developers had to rewrite their own encoder.

[poisondeathray]

First MC H.264 encoders were pure Elecard's. MC has bought all rights for Elecard H.264 encoder.
That's why Elecard developers had to rewrite their own encoder.


Interesting. I know MC has been around for awhile. I remember using their encoder around ~2004. I think Sony and Adobe had licenced their encoder too around that time. Are you saying this was based on Elecard's ?

And how would looking at Elecard's rewritten encoder today give you information on todays MC implementation? Are they still very similar?

[shon3i]

I was thinking same that Elecard use Mainconcept SDK not vice versa. But i am not very suprised with new Elecard Encoder aslo, It's good but i don't think is better than current Mainconcept SDK 8.5/8.6, maybe i am wrong, i am not use Elecard since last beta test.

[kolak]

Really don't want to derail this thread too much more, but the current status is we have about 95% of the rights, we're negotiating with Avail Media, and we're working on our actual license agreement for commercial licenses.

I would say "expect it by summer".

Very interesting.
How are all the "doom9 people" (who have done thousands of hours of testing and without who x264 would be in dark ages) going to benefit from it?

[kolak]

Unfortunaly and curiousely Reference don't activate highest possible quality:
- grain optimisation
- pyramid and bref
- adaptative quantisation
- 8*8 inter and intra

IMO reference developpeur doesn't know really well the Mainconcept SDK codec ... lol




yes ... because I obtain better quality with really old 2006 CLI but with all possible command line.

Carbon Coder unlocks all of these settings as well as adaptive deblocking and some others.

Andrew

[kolak]

I really hope this "reference" is some sort of practical joke.

(500kbps 2-pass, max settings, x264 partition/frametype options set to be comparable, Mainconcept using +60% complexity mask, which seemed to give very vaguely similar quantizer results to x264's AQ)
Mainconcept / x264
(NB: x264 was ~7% smaller in this test)
http://i49.tinypic.com/eqp1nb.pnghttp://i46.tinypic.com/20zskeg.png

(2500kbps 2-pass, max settings, roughly the same as above)
Mainconcept / x264
(NB: x264 was ~3% larger in this test)
http://i46.tinypic.com/33f3x8p.pnghttp://i46.tinypic.com/90c6mc.png

I mean seriously, I remember previous versions doing better than this. Or maybe x264's gotten better faster than Mainconcept has (since the last comparison).

It looks like to strong settings for complexity mask. On some sources it's very sensitive.

[bob0r]

I think mainconcept mistakenly implemented Just Cause's motion blur module.

[shon3i]

Very interesting.
How are all the "doom9 people" (who have done thousands of hours of testing and without who x264 would be in dark ages) going to benefit from it?
AFAIK, x264 will remain free, only when you need to use it comercialy eg for Blu-Ray, you need licence which can cost or not!

[kolak]

AFAIK, x264 will remain free, only when you need to use it comercialy eg for Blu-Ray, you need licence which can cost or not!

I think it would be nice to charge some money and donate them to charity/wikipedia.


Andrew

[kieranrk]

AFAIK, x264 will remain free, only when you need to use it comercialy eg for Blu-Ray, you need licence which can cost or not!

This isn't true at all but I'll let Dark Shikari clarify.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

AFAIK, x264 will remain free, only when you need to use it comercialy eg for Blu-Ray, you need licence which can cost or not!

x264 is released under the GPL. Even if the developers decided to put x264 under some proprietary license at some point in the future (which they can do, if all people who contributed code agree), the last version/revision that was still released under GPL would remain "free" (GPL'd) until forever. You could still use it for free and you could even continue the development based on that code. That's guaranteed by the "Copyleft" principle of the GPL. Furthermore you do not need a special license to use x264 for commercial purposes, as the GPL explicitly allows everybody to use the software for free and for any purpose, including commercial purposes. Anyway, you would have to pay patenting fees to the H.264 patent holders (not to the x264 team), if you use x264 in a commercial application. And I guess that's what the "commercial license" is all about. Probably the x264 team will also offer "help & support" contracts to their commercial users - that's where money is made with OpenSource software...

[Dark Shikari]

x264 is released under the GPL. Even if the developers decided to put x264 under some proprietary license at some point in the future (which they can do, if all people who contributed code agree), the last version/revision that was still released under GPL would remain "free" (GPL'd) until forever.It's more than that, actually. The contributory license agreement we've used requires that x264 LLC release (under the GPLv2) any modification of x264 that it distributes.

In other words, we have intentionally legally tied our own hands to make it impossible to create a proprietary fork of x264. x264 will forever remain free.

[schweinsz]

It's more than that, actually. The contributory license agreement we've used requires that x264 LLC release (under the GPLv2) any modification of x264 that it distributes.

In other words, we have intentionally legally tied our own hands to make it impossible to create a proprietary fork of x264. x264 will forever remain free.
If I code for x264 and require that my code is free for personal use or freeware and charges for commercial purpose, is it feasible?

[Dark Shikari]

If I code for x264 and require that my code is free for personal use or freeware and charges for commercial purpose, is it feasible?All contributions to x264 are dual-licensed under the GPL and the contributory license agreement.

No matter what happens, it will always be free (under the GPL). Furthermore, there is the extra condition that any modified version distributed under the proprietary license must also be released as GPL.

Being under the GPL, of course, means all your changes will be free for use by anyone, for any purpose, with no restrictions on use.

[schweinsz]

All contributions to x264 are dual-licensed under the GPL and the contributory license agreement.

No matter what happens, it will always be free (under the GPL). Furthermore, there is the extra condition that any modified version distributed under the proprietary license must also be released as GPL.

Being under the GPL, of course, means all your changes will be free for use by anyone, for any purpose, with no restrictions on use.
But how can you make money with avail media? Can I join in that? I believe that I can improve the x264 greatly. Does avail media need more speed?

[Audionut]

I guess Avail says, "We really want this function. Code it for us, and we'll pay you."