BTW XviD is working with Vorbis in Ogg ....

[ChristianHJW]

check here :

http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=108

But only for integer framrates now. Seems as if the days of AVI are finally counted, at least in the long term .... we keep on testing and you informed ... ;)

[Koepi]

Hehe :-)
Tonight I played around with that as well.
I captured two music clips (nothing I like, but what else is usable for tests?) with vdub/XviD.
After that I created 2 oggs out of them.
The last test was to pack all 4 streams (2 video, 2 audio) into a single ogg...

Amazing, it works perfectly, i now can watch each video with a different song ;)

Btw., seeking in these ogg files is unbelievable fast! I'll never use avi again if the filters support float fps...
Well, maybe we should mail Avery that he should add save-to-ogg support in vdub... then we have everything we need :)

Good work!

Now I'm trying transcoding a 2 CD rip of LotR on 1 CD via XviD/Vorbis/ogg... the quality will be cruel but it's just the problem that I don't have a DVD worth encoding at hands and I want to test full length material :)

Just wanted to present some of my results.

Regards,
Koepi

[ChristianHJW]

... good to hear the results were confirmed from such a honourable member and experienced moderator as you are, Koepi.

I contacted Avery today to inform him about what's going on with the Ogg format right now. ingoralfblum pointed out to me that the ogg format as is today has limitations if it comes to editing .... on the other hand its perfect for streaming.

Seems as if these two are always concurring : if the format is good for streaming ( forgiving if data are lost, etc. ) it's always pain in the ass to edit the file, and vice versa.

The other format we discuss at present, TMF ( or MCS as it may be called in future ) would offer a lot more features and very good editability, but is no good for streaming.

I am trying to bring Tronic ( TMF coder ), Tobias W. ( coder of the 1st Ogg implementation ) and Monty on one table now ( ingo could also help here i guess ) in order to find out if its possible to merge the two formats and create one of both offering all the things the community needs to replace AVI ...... a Sissyphos work it seems, coders are so proud about what they do :( ....

[Peters]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
check here :

http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=108

But only for integer framrates now. Seems as if the days of AVI are finally counted, at least in the long term .... we keep on testing and you informed ... ;)

IMHO it works only with 25 fps and not other framerates even integers.

[BlackSun]

Nah, it work only with integer, and not floating point value

[Peters]

you don't understand what i mean maybe because of my bad english

(funny for a french speaking to a french)

I think that , for the moment, only 25 fps works.

Nothing else, not 24 fps or 26 fps, not 25.2 fps, not 24.99 fps.

If you try changing framerate of an pal movie from 25 to 24 or 26 fps, you got artefacts.

If you change the framerate of an NSTC movie to 24 fps, you got artefacts.

Only 25 fps works

[BlackSun]

That's what I'm saying :p
Je suis mort de rire

[Peters]

:) really ?

Is 24 fps or 26 fps a floating point value?


Moi aussi je suis MDR

[ChristianHJW]

It works with 30 fps also for some guys. Maybe only integers divisable by 5 ?

Dont forget, this is a very early alpha. The author of this tools, Tobias W., is still on vacation and apparently doesnt have a clue about the hype going about his soft .... !

While we're here, pls. dont forget to vote here http://www.powerdivx.com/index.php or, better even, here http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=133 , we still have some hopes it should be possible to convince Monty that TMF/MCS could be a good replacement for the Ogg format, or at least we could adapt the specs of the two such that its possible for external coders to support both in thier software without major hassle .... thanks in advance for your support.

BTW : check out Tronic's new homepage with the latest TMF/MCS spec :

http://solidhardware.com/sn/?tmf

Maybe we even get the streaming to work one day ?

[Peters]

You're right Christian, id doesn't matter, the old DS version works for all framerates, i'm sure the new one too :)

And i'm really happy with current version until Blacksun's team reaches his goal. (and i hope so!)

[-h]

.. we still have some hopes it should be possible to convince Monty that TMF/MCS could be a good replacement for the Ogg format..

I think you underestimate Monty's stubborness ;)

The Ogg format itself isn't going to be changed - it was declared frozen quite some time ago (and would make many people angry..). Thanks to its properties as a container, however, it's entirely possible to stick menus, subtitles and whatever else in there - as long as the player recognizes the streams.

I think the major differences you'd see between TMF/MCS and Ogg are that, TMF seems to be trying to standardize the content streams to make life easier for the players (i.e. "This is how subtitles will work"). While that's appreciable, I don't think it is reason enough to discard the "anything goes" philosophy behind Ogg as a container. It just means the players have to work harder :)

Also.. well.. ogg is harder to work with than say AVI. libogg will certainly improve over time, but it's still better than the (lack of?) TMF/MCS code.

No disrespect to any effort - just looking at this in a pragmatic sense, it seems easier to leverage the existing infrastructure that the ogg format has, by designing and coding actual stream handlers for subtitles, menus, and whatever else people feel like throwing in. The first standard normally sticks, after all :)

-h

[BlackSun]

Float: 1.1
Integer: 1
If I'am not wrong, the header is wrong and he's about to change the format of the header, change the value...

[Peters]

Tobias is a nice guy and his new version (0.9.8.2) works like a charm for all framerates.

It's great!

[Koepi]

Now this is working for me as well - a 23.975fps movie - 2hours 57minutes, with vorbis sound - suites on 1 700MB cd with still nice quality :-)

For me it's a new choice:

XviD+Ogg Vorbis contained in an ogg. All formats in legal use.

Great work guys!

I hope the file format won't break for the newer versions of the filter set so i can use it now and don't have to fiddle with that i can't play them later on...

Regards,
Koepi

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Koepi For me it's a new choice:
XviD+Ogg Vorbis contained in an ogg. All formats in legal use.
Great work guys!

I will transfer this form of unlimited admiration to the authour, Tobias Waldvogel ;) ..

I hope the file format won't break for the newer versions of the filter set so i can use it now and don't have to fiddle with that i can't play them later on...

Oooops .... well, honestly speaking, this one is giving us some headache still :D ..... the Ogg format is very flexible, being a beauty on the one side but may be causing probs on the other side.

One of the many reasons why i'd still love to see TMF/MCS taking off. I will try to get an opinion from the author on this one and post it here ....

[lar1r]

For those who have made an ogg file, how did you get it to work?

I've installed the latest version of the OGG filters .982 and the Vorbenc file.

I have an avi file with Xvid video and 44.1 WAV audio (does this always have to be 44.1 WAV audio?).

I load up graphedit and load the filters:

AVI/WAV file source ->

The avi goes to Stream0 in the Ogg Multiplexer
The wav goes into the Vorbis Compressor which goes to Stream 1 of the Ogg Multiplexer.

Then the Ogg Multiplexer writes a test.ogg file.

Every time I try run the complete test.ogg file, it isn't recognized. Now I know this last version of the OGG filters is supposed to work with NTSC frame rates, so is there something wrong in my method?

Thanks

[Peters]

@ lar1r


What do you call not recognized?
If you want to launch it by double click, just rename it to test.avi

[lar1r]

I mean it doesn't work when dragged into the file player.

The demo.ogg supplied in the Powerdivx thread did work so I know the way I did it was wrong. Isn't it?

Thx

[Peters]

Well, i looked at your method

Instead of avi/wav file, just use File Source(Async)
Connect output to ogg multiplexer Stream0
Then connect Avi splitter Stream1 to Vorbis Compressor
Vorbis Compressor to ogg multiplexer Stream1
And ogg stream to test.ogg

[lar1r]

My problem was that I was decoding a MJPEG vid source.
Once i compressed it and ran that avi through the program, all worked.

Thanks.

[Koepi]

Hi again :-)

Originally posted by ChristianHJW


Oooops .... well, honestly speaking, this one is giving us some headache still :D ..... the Ogg format is very flexible, being a beauty on the one side but may be causing probs on the other side.

One of the many reasons why i'd still love to see TMF/MCS taking off. I will try to get an opinion from the author on this one and post it here ....

Well, since I've been on the ogg vorbis devel list for over a year now i know most things that happen there - so from that point of view i can't see why the format shouldn't be stable ;)

But please send all my "appreciations" (well, what i mean: i really appreciate this good work!) to Tobias! :-)


Btw., with "yet another file format(yaff)" - I like the idea of a real felxible container format.
_But_ to be honest...
Since now I have most frequently .mp3, .ogg, .avi, .rm, .mov,......
I really didn't get comfortable with even one more file extension(.ogg still gives me some headache since it support in commercial eps is being added _very_ slowly.... can you burn CDs out of oggs with nero? with WinOnCD?... etc), how do you want to make another container more popular?

I think that we must concentrate on one format and produce some pressure on manufacturers of mainstream commercial software to support them....

Uff, just getting off topic here, but i thought i have to write this ;)

Anyways,

best regards,
Koepi

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Koepi I think that we must concentrate on one format and produce some pressure on manufacturers of mainstream commercial software to support them....

Couldnt agree more here ..... if we have two new formats in the end both may suffer from lack of support. I personally wouldnt mind if we could agree on using Ogg, but a few experts now have stated that the Ogg framework is not specific enough, there is much room for misinterpretation leading to incompatibilities, also editing the files should be quite hard to achieve .... no way to get f.e. Vdub support for Ogg it seems ....

Didnt know you were in the Ogg dev list .... could you talk to Monty about joining efforts here ? He'd probably had to accept that some vital parts of the Ogg framework would be redone, but in the end we could have a new format meeting all requirements an AVI replacement should have.

[buba king]

wow! it works pretty good! i've been waiting a LOONG time for this!

Tested a divx4.12(23,97fps) stream + a Ogg Vorbis Stream.. Perfect sync! But the video looks like a broken .avi( moving things gets a trail). i guess this is a problem with the non-integer fps.

I also tried to chage the fps in vdub to 24fps but i still have the same prob. I'm probaly doing something wrong :P


Props to the devs for the good work!

[buba king]

cool! i reinstalled the Filters and remuxed the 2 files and it works perfect! @ 23,97fps!! bye bye avi :)

[gldblade]

I'd like to try XviD/Ogg, but whenever I go to insert Ogg Multiplexer in Graphedit it gives me the error: "The filter could not be created. Resources used by this filter may already be in use." I've reinstalled it and rebooted already. Any ideas?

[MaTTeR]

Ok, it's late and I just spent 2hrs trying to mux my Ogg in to my XviD AVI file. First time I've ever used GraphEdit, looks cool. Between this thread and going over Doom9s GE guide I'm still unsure which filters to load and how to connect them. Does anyone have a screenshot of GE that shows an example setup? I would be most grateful:D

[ChristianHJW]

Screenshot is in this thread : http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=210 .

[nikthebak]

Originally posted by gldblade
I'd like to try XviD/Ogg, but whenever I go to insert Ogg Multiplexer in Graphedit it gives me the error: "The filter could not be created. Resources used by this filter may already be in use." I've reinstalled it and rebooted already. Any ideas?

Interesting, I've been having exactly the same problem. Everything else would be set and in order for DivX 4 + Vorbis in Ogg rips, but that pesky Ogg Muxer always gives that same error! It doesn't matter matter how many times try to I reboot and/or re-register the OggDS.dll filter!

I'm currently using Win98SE but I think I'm going to try it out with Win2K later today. My Graphedit is the latest version from doom9.org downloads and I'm trying to use the very latest Ogg DS filters.

Could someone please elaborate a bit or at least tell how they got the OggDS.dll to work, and on what operating system?

[Peters]

I don't know if it's your case but i know some guys have problems with graphedit if the MediaXW package is installed.

[gldblade]

>I'm currently using Win98SE

So am I...

>if the MediaXW package is installed.

Nope, don't have it.

[Ripe73]

HI!
Newbiequestion.
I want to test Oggaudio to my DivX what apps do you use to encode the wav-->Ogg?
I have CDex when i encode my music to mp3 and i can choose Oggaudio in the encodingoption too,that gives me 3 encodingoptions
Min bitrate
Nominal bitrate
Max bitrate
So if i want to use 128 quality what should i choose?
Is there some guide how to use this Ogg and mux it?

Thanks

[nikthebak]

Originally posted by Ripe73
HI!
Newbiequestion.
I want to test Oggaudio to my DivX what apps do you use to encode the wav-->Ogg?

I believe that CDex had some kind of bug in Ogg dll bitrate management which rendered the min/max bitrate options useless. I'm not quite sure whether this particular nuisance has been fixed in recent versions or not. But just hit min=32, nominal=128 and max=320 if you really want to use CDex.

However, I would seriously recommend making your Vorbis audio with external encoders. This would mean oggenc or oggdrop using the quality switches. Where oggenc works from the command prompt, oggdrop is a neat piece of software to where you drag'n'drop your WAV files into :D. With recent rc3 oggenc use

oggenc -q 4 [infile.wav] -o [outfile.ogg]

in command prompt. You almost certainly get a killer sounding ~128 kbps file. Alternatively, you could use john33's modified oggdrop and set the quality to 4,0.

Some might recommend using the bitrate switches for soundtrack encodings, but now it's quite apparent that that Vorbis' VBR modes are very stable thus suitable for soundtracks.

For more information about Vorbis encoding be sure to visit www.hydrogenaudio.org. Official Vorbis rc3 encoders are downloadable from www.vorbis.com and Hydrogenaudio provides links for the modified compiles.

I would like to post direct links to the modified oggenc/oggdrop binaries but Hydrogenaudio seemed to be unreachable for the moment :mad:.

[Ripe73]

Great thanks!!!

I will try this but i not so good in command prompt but i have this oggdrop and try to set the quality but its not like to choose 128 or 160 i can only choose 0-100% so what is equal to 128mp3.

What bitrate do you suggest for 1cd and 2cd rip with Ogg?

[-h]

Ogg's bitrate modes are not advised - they cripple the codec via rate controlling in order to make files that are easier to stream. For anything but streaming, the 'quality' setting should always be used.

I'd suggest trying a few values and seeing what appeals to you - a quality of 30% on that scale should be about as good as a ~140 kbit MP3 (while being around 105 kbps in Ogg form).

You can be confident that whatever file size you end up with, it'll sound better than MP3 at the same rate.

-h

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by -h You can be confident that whatever file size you end up with, it'll sound better than MP3 at the same rate.

I cant agree more ..... thanks to HeadAC3he 0.21 pre being available for powerdivx beta testers we already were able to create 6 channel Vorbis directly from 5.1 AC3 with average bitrates of 240 kbps ( q 2 ) ... unfortunately there is no good DirectShowFilter for playback available, only a Winamp plugin and the channel order on this one is incorrect ( center coming via left speaker, etc. ) .... but this is giving good expectation of what we can do with Vorbis in future !

For muxing XviD/Vorbis into Ogg format here are the threads again how to do it :
http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=210
http://www.powerdivx.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=108

[Ripe73]

HI Again!!

I did a short clip with Ogg audio and it sounds great and very fast if jump in the clip:) .
But it only play fine in Mplayer2,Bsplayer says unknown format and in powerdivx it crackle.

Is it possible to split movies with Ogg?

It seems to be no muxingoverhead in Ogg is that right?

XviD+Ogg will Rock in the future!!!

[MaTTeR]

@Ripe73
I have the same problem as you. I managed to mux the Ogg audio into my AVI but I'm hearing cracks and pops inside of ZP, WiMP8 and PowerDVD. Otherwise it all seems to work pretty good:)

I just read in the PowerDivX forums about some tools that exist to cut Ogg files. Do a search over in the PD forums and it should turn up.

If I can figure out the playback popping issue then I'm going to XviD and Ogg fulltime. Goodbye to AVI and DivX:)

[Koepi]

erm, this thread is about:

MUXing video+audio into an OGG, not into an avi.

Something must have gotten lost?

Regards,
Koepi

[MaTTeR]

@Koepi
My bad. That was actually a typo on my part. I'm so used to saying and using AVI that those nasty 3 letters just slipped out.

I meant to say Ogg format instead of AVI.;)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Ripe73 I did a short clip with Ogg audio and it sounds great and very fast if jump in the clip:)
Vorbis audio with either DivX4 or Xvid in a new format ( Ogg or TMF ) are the future, no doubt here ....
But it only play fine in Mplayer2,Bsplayer says unknown format and in powerdivx it crackle.
Remember the DirectShowFilters from Tobias are very early betas ...
Is it possible to split movies with Ogg?
Not for now. The only splitting tool for ogg format is for audio only, it cant do video. Also the Ogg format is told to be not very good for editing in general. Expect more here from TMF/MCS.
It seems to be no muxingoverhead in Ogg is that right?
There is, but only very very small.
XviD+Ogg will Rock in the future!!!
You mean Vorbis audio in an Ogg container with Xvid ?
Tronic promised we may expect a 1st alpha of TMF/MCS soon ....

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

You mean Vorbis audio in an Ogg container with Xvid ?
Tronic promised we may expect a 1st alpha of TMF/MCS soon ....
This is great news Chris. I had no idea it was progressing this fast. It appears we have several people here more than willing to help test;)

[ChristianHJW]

MaTTer .... browse the beta test section on powerdivx .... there is interesting news ... -h and teegedeck be invited too ...

[Koepi]

I can't find any beta test section on powerdivx... any hint?
Edit: Even if I'm not invited? ;P <- sorry, didn't look into my messages ;)

Regards,
Koepi

[Ripe73]

HI!

I try to mux two Oggaudiostreams in a movie but only the first audio stream plays fine the second sounds like shit(squeak,if thats the right word).
I did like this in GE.
open video and the 2 audiostreams with "File Source(Async)
Ogg multiplexer
Drag two pins to the Ogg multiplexer
Filewriter
Save
No errors

Anyone know?

Thanks

[MaTTeR]

@Ripe73

I haven't tried muxing 2 audio streams yet. However you may have to set the language for each stream. This is just a wild guess but if you right click on the each of the filters in GE then you can go in and select different properties. I think the multiplexer allows you to change some options. Perhaps Neo Neko has tried this.

[Koepi]

I had no problems with that - I even muxed 2 video and 2 audio streams into a single ogg and it works perfectly...

Regards,
Koepi

[Acaila]

To mux more than one audio stream you need the morgan stream switcher DSF after the OGG multiplexer.

I put 12 streams into one file and without that particular DSF I couldn't access the other streams. With it, it works perfectly.

[Peters]

You don't need Morgan switcher DSF, just use WMP and choose your language to access to audio streams

[Ripe73]

HI!
The problem is not to switch,i rightclick on Mplayer2 and choose audio 2 but it sounds like shit

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Koepi
[B]I can't find any beta test section on powerdivx... any hint?
Edit: Even if I'm not invited? ;P <- sorry, didn't look into my messages ;)
So where have you been lazy bum .. we had to decide all alone .. Doom9 is so busy and he took the time !!