60i > 24p OR natively 24p?

[n0an]

I am planning to buy myself a camcorder, and the two models I have thought of are Canon HV40 and Panasonic HDC-TM300. HV40 has the option to record at 24p native, while the Panasonic has 60i > 24p. I am not much inclined towards HV40 as it uses miniDV tapes, but the 24p native seems to be more promising than 60i > 24p. Can anyone tell me if there is much difference between the two recording rates? Will the 60i > 24p show much frame blending (ghosting actually)? :confused: They both are in the same price range so the recording rate is the major factor governing my purchase right now :p.

Here are the two camcorders:

HV40: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Vixia-HV40-Camcorder-Review-37194/Specs-and-Ratings.htm

TM300: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM300-Camcorder-Review-37105/Specs-and-Ratings.htm

[Ghitulescu]

Do not forget that HDTV for HDV also means 1440x1080i...
AFAIK all Canon consumer models feature 60i->24p as native 24p is a profi function.

[n0an]

Well, I can always shoot high action videos in 60i, but I am really curious about the 24p option. "as native 24p is a" what function?

[Ghitulescu]

Well, I can always shoot high action videos in 60i, but I am really curious about the 24p option. "as native 24p is a" what function?

24p was thought for professional use and it's natively implemented in the profi line of Canon (and other manufacturers). No longer than 3 years ago all these manufacturers just had a big cry (in Germany) "yes we can" 1080p24 ... it was just me that "no I couldn't" (pay the price) ;)

[roozhou]

Among all Canon's comsumer DV, HV40 is the only one that supports storing native progressive video. Others will either telecine 24p to 60i or store progressive video in an interlaced stream(25f, 30f).

Currently no AVCHD camcorders supports native progressive mode. AFAIK some early Panasonic models do support native 25p/30p but now all Canon and Panasonic models use 25f/30f. And Sony models do not support progressive at all.

[n0an]

So is there any other cam that you could recommend for 24p/25p recording? I guess 24p native is better than 60i > 24p? :confused:

[Inspector.Gadget]

TRUE 60i cannot be made into 24p without making the video jerky, because you don't have two fields per frame. If you want 24p output, better to get true 24p input. 24p -> hard telecining -> 60i -> IVTC in Avisynth -> 24p will likely cost you some video quality, but at least the video won't be jerky.

[n0an]

TRUE 60i cannot be made into 24p without making the video jerky, because you don't have two fields per frame. If you want 24p output, better to get true 24p input. 24p -> hard telecining -> 60i -> IVTC in Avisynth -> 24p will likely cost you some video quality, but at least the video won't be jerky.

Some quality loss to get smooth video wouldn't hurt much as I can always toggle between the two. I forgot where, but I read on one forum that 60i > 24p is actually 24p > 60i > 24p. Not sure if its true. Anyway, so no annoying frame blending or other artifacts? I posted earlier that my friend had a Samsung HMX10 which he uses to record at 60i. I tried ivtc'ing it to 24p, but it had 1 dupe in a cycle of 3 frames - "frame.frame.dupe.frame.frame.dupe.."

You think that will happen with 60i > 24p mode as well?

[Inspector.Gadget]

24p becomes 60i with 3:2 pulldown. IVTCing hard-telecined 60i makes it 24p. That's just math. And I'm not sure you understood what I meant: 24p -> 24p will retain the most visual quality. If the camera internally converts 24p to 60i, and you have to recover 24p with IVTC, that will work but you will likely lose some visual quality. A camera that records 60 native fields per second produces output that shouldn't be converted to 24p, because matching the fields to make frames actually gives you 30p. 24p made from a 60 fields per second true interlaced source looks ugly and jerky.

[n0an]

On the specs sheet of Panasonic TM300, it only mentions 60i and 24p. So I guess that is 60i native to 24p pulldown? Specs here... (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM300-Camcorder-Review-37105/Specs-and-Ratings.htm) I could only find two 24p native camcorders, out of which, HV40 is outdated with miniDVs and the HF S21 is like $1.3k or so. The s11 has modes of 60i, 24p, and 30p, so I believe that is again a 60i pulldown to 30p and 24p.

[roozhou]

On the specs sheet of Panasonic TM300, it only mentions 60i and 24p. So I guess that is 60i native to 24p pulldown? Specs here... (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM300-Camcorder-Review-37105/Specs-and-Ratings.htm) I could only find two 24p native camcorders, out of which, HV40 is outdated with miniDVs and the HF S21 is like $1.3k or so. The s11 has modes of 60i, 24p, and 30p, so I believe that is again a 60i pulldown to 30p and 24p.
I am sure all Panasonic 300 series do not support native progressive mode, neither 30p nor 24p. 60i, 24p and 30p are all stored in an 60i AVC stream, with 3:2 pulldown for 24p and 2:2 pulldown for 30p. I don't know if there are chroma upsampling issues for such content, but there will be quality loss because interlace encoding is inefficient.

A good example is Sanyo's camcorders, they all support native progressive mode(30p and 60p).

[poisondeathray]

If you can wait a few months, there is a consumer level camcorder coming out that offers 24pN , Canon HFS200. Or a bit more expensive (entry prosumer level) HMC40

Also some of the DSLR's offer 24pN like Canon 7D, and newly released T2i . But these have their own host of problems (e.g aliasing, audio, short recording times...)

24p is hard to shoot without stabilization rigs and proper technique

[n0an]

But is the pulldown on 60i > 24p jerky with annoying frame blending? I wanted a 24pN cam as I figured it would be better in terms of quality and (smooth) playback, but if a 3:2 pulldown can do the same job (near it), then I will probably prefer the panasonic one. Do either of you guys have a raw footage in 60i > 24p mode from a canon/panasonic or any other decent cam?

I Googled and it seems the HFS200 will be out on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-VIXIA-Flash-Memory-Camcorder/dp/B00322OOXM) on April 15. If 60i > 24p is a complete no for quality and playback, then I will surely wait for this cam.

[poisondeathray]

I wanted a 24pN cam as I figured it would be better in terms of quality and (smooth) playback

smooth?

You should research this more and the reasons for shooting 24p because its not smooth at all.

24p is very difficult to shoot. Pans are very choppy unless they are controlled and stabilized. If you're doing this handheld, you're not going to like it. 24p is usually reserved for planned shots, and theatrical productions. If you're doing this for "home video" stuff you will be disappointed.

It's not "smooth" at all because each second has 24 samples. 60p is much smoother because each second has 60 samples representing it.

If you play video games, an analogy would be the min fps. A better graphics card can get you higher minimum fps. 30fps is barely playable, but 60fps and above is silky smooth

Here is a representative video made by another poster in a different forum , showing the differences between 24p, 30p, 60p

http://www.mediafire.com/?gdngdhqzzme

[n0an]

I actually meant the opposite of jerky without any dupe frames or annoying frame blending (ghosting). Thanks for the video.

I am a college student and I will be taking up projects in which I will usually be using a tripod for stability. It will be for home videos as well, and that is where the 60i mode comes in handy. 24pN will be useful for events where there are big projection screens behind speakers that come to my university for special events. The camera that captures and outputs the picture on screen is a prosumer cam, so I assume that is at 24p too. So for stable shots and to avoid flicker, 24pN will be very better, I assume. I will also be shooting short-films so want the best overall quality possible (in a certain price range). I actually want to have a look at a 60i > 24p raw footage to check if its anywhere near 24pN. This is a really big investment, so want to be secured for the duration of college.

EDIT

The reason I am so curious to know it is because my friend had a Samsung camcorder which recorded at 60i and 30p. I did a 3:2 pulldown (tfm.tecimate) and it ended up with 1 dupe frame in 3. So every 2nd frame had 1 dupe in the cycle. I just don't want that with the 60i > 24p mode.

[poisondeathray]

If you understand the potential problems with 24p shooting, and are going forward, then yes, 24pN is *always* better than 60i => 24p


The reason I am so curious to know it is because my friend had a Samsung camcorder which recorded at 60i and 30p. I did a 3:2 pulldown (tfm.tecimate) and it ended up with 1 dupe frame in 3. So every 2nd frame had 1 dupe in the cycle. I just don't want that with the 60i > 24p mode.


Are you sure it was recorded as 24p in 60i stream? ie. not something else

[n0an]

If you understand the potential problems with 24p shooting, and are going forward, then yes, 24pN is *always* better than 60i => 24p



Are you sure it was recorded as 24p in 60i stream? ie. not something else

It was actually 60i native which was ivtc'ed to 24p. Here's the thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=151741) on that. I understand the problems, but I want to know if 60i > 24p will have any artifacts which may be a problem in getting semi-professional captures? If yes, then I will go with 24pN. If not, then I will go ahead and get the Panasonic.

[poisondeathray]

It was actually 60i native which was ivtc'ed to 24p


But 60i native isn't the same thing as 24p in 60i

You can't IVTC 60i native footage, because it's not telecined to begin with!

24p in 60i is telecine, this is what rouzhou and the others were talking about above. Most consumer camcorders that record "24p" actually store it in a 60i container. This is telecine. Reversing that "packaging" is inverse telecine or IVTC

60i is interlaced. 60 fields per second or 30 frames per second. When you convert that to 24p it's very messy because it's not an even multiple. (24 doesn't divide evenly into 60 nicely). So you can either blend frames, duplicate frames, or use frame interpolation software to generate the "in betwen frames". This is very different that IVTCing

[Atak_Snajpera]

I am planning to buy myself a camcorder, and the two models I have thought of are Canon HV40 and Panasonic HDC-TM300.
If I were you I would buy panasonic! Why? Because canon camcorders have poor low light performance. (http://www.videoaktiv.de/Table/Testvideos/)
The best camcorder in my opinion will be sony hdr-CX550VE. However it is not cheap. Sony camcorders since 505 have amazing low light performance. Thanks to new generation of sensors.

[roozhou]

If I were you I would buy panasonic! Why? Because canon camcorders have poor low light performance. (http://www.videoaktiv.de/Table/Testvideos/)
The best camcorder in my opinion will be sony hdr-CX550VE. However it is not cheap. Sony camcorders since 505 have amazing low light performance. Thanks to new generation of sensors.
Well Sony Camcorders do not support progressive at all.

[Ghitulescu]

The best camcorder in my opinion will be sony hdr-CX550VE. However it is not cheap. Sony camcorders since 505 have amazing low light performance. Thanks to new generation of sensors.

Well Sony Camcorders do not support progressive at all.

And they use MS as well. For me a capital reason not to buy Sony. Remember, when they entered the profi liga in DSLR, they provided the bodies with CF, because, ehee, it was hard to convince the profi to buy MS.

[n0an]

But 60i native isn't the same thing as 24p in 60i

You can't IVTC 60i native footage, because it's not telecined to begin with!

24p in 60i is telecine, this is what rouzhou and the others were talking about above. Most consumer camcorders that record "24p" actually store it in a 60i container. This is telecine. Reversing that "packaging" is inverse telecine or IVTC

60i is interlaced. 60 fields per second or 30 frames per second. When you convert that to 24p it's very messy because it's not an even multiple. (24 doesn't divide evenly into 60 nicely). So you can either blend frames, duplicate frames, or use frame interpolation software to generate the "in betwen frames". This is very different that IVTCing

Oh okay. I get it now. Thanks for the layman language :p.

If I were you I would buy panasonic! Why? Because canon camcorders have poor low light performance. (http://www.videoaktiv.de/Table/Testvideos/)
The best camcorder in my opinion will be sony hdr-CX550VE. However it is not cheap. Sony camcorders since 505 have amazing low light performance. Thanks to new generation of sensors.

That's what I would like to do, but the fps issue is driving me crazy. I wish I could work with a sample and figure out a way to fix the 60i > 24p captures before I actually buy the camcorder.

[poisondeathray]

That's what I would like to do, but the fps issue is driving me crazy. I wish I could work with a sample and figure out a way to fix the 60i > 24p captures before I actually buy the camcorder.

If you mean true 60i (not 24p in 60i), it's impossible to "fix." It's not a fix, it's a framerate conversion

You will *always* either get stuttering from dupes or decimation, ghosting from blends, or artifacts from frame interpolation depending on what method you choose

If you want 24p, you need to shoot either in 24pN or telecined 24p in 60i

[n0an]

If you mean true 60i (not 24p in 60i), it's impossible to "fix." It's not a fix, it's a framerate conversion

You will *always* either get stuttering from dupes or decimation, ghosting from blends, or artifacts from frame interpolation depending on what method you choose

If you want 24p, you need to shoot either in 24pN or telecined 24p in 60i



I was talking about telecined 24p in 60i. Do you reckon any artifacts in telecined 24p? Is it free of the annoying blends and dupes?

[poisondeathray]

I was talking about telecined 24p in 60i. Do you reckon any artifacts in telecined 24p? Is it free of the annoying blends and dupes?

You usually get fairly clean streams, but it's possible to get residual combing - sometimes there is a cadence break. Adaptive field matchers like TFM usually do a good job, but you can use vinverse if there is stuff left over. It depends on the quality of the hardware recorder. Still , 24p in 60i and IVTCing it is a million times better than a 60i conversion to 24p

24pN is *always* better

[n0an]

You usually get fairly clean streams, but it's possible to get residual combing - sometimes there is a cadence break. Adaptive field matchers like TFM usually do a good job, but you can use vinverse if there is stuff left over. It depends on the quality of the hardware recorder. Still , 24p in 60i and IVTCing it is a million times better than a 60i conversion to 24p

24pN is *always* better

I get you now. I was just missing the word "telecine" in my replies which made it vague. I will go with the panasonic one for now, and consider the new canon 24pN model after a few months.

[Atak_Snajpera]

And they use MS as well. For me a capital reason not to buy Sony
sony hdr-CX550VE supports SD as well!!! Also it has wide angle lense 30mm!!! You can also connect external hdd and copy all files without PC! I'm sold! I'm glad that I live in PAL zone. Conversion from 50i to 25fps (or 24fps or 23.976fps) is a peace of cake :)

@n0an
conversion from 60i to 24p is possible. for example you can interpolate frames to 120. Next you add SelectEvery(5) and you get nice smooth 24.

[n0an]

sony hdr-CX550VE supports SD as well!!! Also it has wide angle lense 30mm!!! You can also connect external hdd and copy all files without PC! I'm sold! I'm glad that I live in PAL zone. Conversion from 50i to 25fps (or 24fps or 23.976fps) is a peace of cake :)

@n0an
conversion from 60i to 24p is possible. for example you can interpolate frames to 120. Next you add SelectEvery(5) and you get nice smooth 24.

Its hard to find a PAL camera in USA, otherwise I am all in for it :rolleyes:.

You are talking about telecined 24p or native 60i > 24p?

[poisondeathray]

You are talking about telecined 24p or native 60i > 24p?

he's taking about native 60i => 24p , ie. framerate conversion using frame interpolation. It's scenario (3) that I listed above.

An example in avisynth would be mflowfps or mvflowfps. Retail software would be after effects (pixel motion) , or twixtor.

But to generate the "inbetween" frames you get various levels of intraframe artifacts (unavoidable), but it's much smoother than the other approaches listed earlier

[n0an]

he's taking about native 60i => 24p , ie. framerate conversion using frame interpolation. It's scenario (3) that I listed above.

An example in avisynth would be mflowfps or mvflowfps. Retail software would be after effects (pixel motion) , or twixtor.

But to generate the "inbetween" frames you get various levels of intraframe artifacts (unavoidable), but it's much smoother than the other approaches listed earlier

Ah okay. I think I am getting it all mixed up. I will read your posts again. I haven't used mvtools before so can you give me a general script for it? You can get the sample here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=151741) and read what others replied.

[poisondeathray]

your link is dead

! read the documentation for examples and instructions (mvtools 2.x)

I would do it in 2 stages, bob-deinterlace to 60p first to a lossless intermediate (eg. UT Video Codec, lagarith, or huffyuv), then run the motion interpolation. (You can do it all in 1 but, if you use a non frame accurate source filter you're asking for trouble - it will cause more artifacts ; also depending if you are using a motion compensated deinterlacer that works on fwd/bwd frames, it can cause problems as well.)


#assume you already bobbed to 60p
WhateverSource("video.ext") #use a frame accurate source filter, not DirectShowSource
super = MSuper(pel=2)
backward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = true, search=3)
forward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = false, search=3)
MFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, num=24000, den=1001)

[n0an]

your link is dead

! read the documentation for examples and instructions (mvtools 2.x)

I would do it in 2 stages, bob-deinterlace to 60p first to a lossless intermediate (eg. UT Video Codec, lagarith, or huffyuv), then run the motion interpolation. (You can do it all in 1 but, if you use a non frame accurate source filter you're asking for trouble - it will cause more artifacts ; also depending if you are using a motion compensated deinterlacer that works on fwd/bwd frames, it can cause problems as well.)


#assume you already bobbed to 60p
WhateverSource("video.ext") #use a frame accurate source filter, not DirectShowSource
super = MSuper(pel=2)
backward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = true, search=3)
forward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = false, search=3)
MFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, num=24000, den=1001)


So what de-interlacer (plugin in specific) would you suggest for this purpose? I could go with either bob or yadifmod, I guess. So once I bob it to 60p, I just run the mvtools over it and it will give me (decent) 24p video? Sorry for being such a n00b, but I want it to be clear in my mind :).

[Ghitulescu]

Coming back to Canon HF-S21....
There are some shops that sells it online, however what you'll have is a preorder, delivery some weeks later ... so no possibility to test one, yet.

From the topic, it seems to be pretty clear that the best shooting mode is 60i (bzw. 50i for PAL countries) then 24p native (unless you shot static), however 60i->24p (FP24) is to be avoided.

Did I get it straight?

[n0an]

Coming back to Canon HF-S21....
There are some shops that sells it online, however what you'll have is a preorder, delivery some weeks later ... so no possibility to test one, yet.

From the topic, it seems to be pretty clear that the best shooting mode is 60i (bzw. 50i for PAL countries) then 24p native (unless you shot static), however 60i->24p (FP24) is to be avoided.

Did I get it straight?

Yes, you did. You know an online shop where I can get a PAL camcorder? Ebay didn't have much for me :(.

[Ghitulescu]

Yes, you did. You know an online shop where I can get a PAL camcorder? Ebay didn't have much for me :(.

Well, I live in the country that invented the PAL norm, I think I can find some PAL models here :p, also on eBay.

[n0an]

Well, I live in the country that invented the PAL norm, I think I can find some PAL models here :p, also on eBay.

Aber Ich wohne in Amerika. Ich kann PAL kamera hier nicht findet.

[ lol just taking some german classes :rolleyes: ]

I tried ebay and amazon, but "PAL hd camcorder" and "hd 50i camcorder" were "too vague" for them. Google wasn't satisfactory either. What other website could offer PAL camcorders? I tried a few European sites, but they don't ship to USA :(.

[Ghitulescu]

Despite offtopic, I'll answer that too: these/most products are sold on a regional basis, the sellers that infringe that requirement would be penalized and their "official supplier" status would be withdrawn.
So no PAL camcorder through the official channels sold in USA, and no NTSC in Europe. Unless one travels, has a friend that travels, or a military base nearby (for NTSC gear) :rolleyes: For used items this policy does not apply, AFAIK.

[n0an]

Despite offtopic, I'll answer that too: these/most products are sold on a regional basis, the sellers that infringe that requirement would be penalized and their "official supplier" status would be withdrawn.
So no PAL camcorder through the official channels sold in USA, and no NTSC in Europe. Unless one travels, has a friend that travels, or a military base nearby (for NTSC gear) :rolleyes: For used items this policy does not apply, AFAIK.

Yea, it drifted from the topic. User camcorders are worth something if they are well maintained and server the purpose. I wouldn't mind getting an used one now, and getting canon s21 later :).

[poisondeathray]

So what de-interlacer (plugin in specific) would you suggest for this purpose? I could go with either bob or yadifmod, I guess. So once I bob it to 60p, I just run the mvtools over it and it will give me (decent) 24p video? Sorry for being such a n00b, but I want it to be clear in my mind :).

whatever your preference is for bobber. yadifmod+nnedi2 is decent, but you might use something else. like everything , it's source dependent and personal preference

It might be decent, it might be horrible, it might be awesome. It's very source dependent. With lots of motion, artifacts tend to be worse from interpolation. The other 2 methods are always less smooth for playback



From the topic, it seems to be pretty clear that the best shooting mode is 60i (bzw. 50i for PAL countries) then 24p native (unless you shot static), however 60i->24p (FP24) is to be avoided.

Did I get it straight?

It depends on what your goals are. The different shooting modes all have pros/cons and are suited for different purposes. But yes, 60i=>24p is to be avoided.

[n0an]

whatever your preference is for bobber. yadifmod+nnedi2 is decent, but you might use something else. like everything , it's source dependent and personal preference

It might be decent, it might be horrible, it might be awesome. It's very source dependent. With lots of motion, artifacts tend to be worse from interpolation. The other 2 methods are always less smooth for playback

Okay, I will try it out and get back to you.


It depends on what your goals are. The different shooting modes all have pros/cons and are suited for different purposes. But yes, 60i=>24p is to be avoided.

If its to be avoided, why does this mode exists then? Wouldn't it better to provide 24pN and 60i as a standard for all camcorders? :confused: 60i will cater to the needs of 30p as well and 24pN will serve others like me :rolleyes:.

[poisondeathray]

If its to be avoided, why does this mode exists then? Wouldn't it better to provide 24pN and 60i as a standard for all camcorders? :confused: 60i will cater to the needs of 30p as well and 24pN will serve others like me :rolleyes:.

60i is meant for 60i. You're not meant to do a framerate conversion. Do you recall that sample video, how smooth 60 samples/sec looked compared to 24 ?

Everything has its pros/cons. Interlaced encoding is very inefficient. Low quality. Interlaced chroma. Deinterlace artifacts. Those are some reasons 60i sucks.

It costs $ to provide for more recording capabilities , because the hardware recorder has to be upgraded. You won't find a camera that has all the versatility for a consumer level price.

The reason you don't find 24pN in very many consumer level camcorders, because it's requires technique, stabilization, and planned shooting. It's not meant for your average shooter

[n0an]

60i is meant for 60i. You're not meant to do a framerate conversion. Do you recall that sample video, how smooth 60 samples/sec looked compared to 24 ?

Everything has its pros/cons. Interlaced encoding is very inefficient. Low quality. Interlaced chroma. Deinterlace artifacts. Those are some reasons 60i sucks.

It costs $ to provide for more recording capabilities , because the hardware recorder has to be upgraded. You won't find a camera that has all the versatility for a consumer level price.

The reason you don't find 24pN in very many consumer level camcorders, because it's requires technique, stabilization, and planned shooting. It's not meant for your average shooter

Hmm.. thanks for the explanation. lol, one last time, will there be any regrets with the 60i > 24p mode. The panasonic tm300 is near $800, so I don't want to regret later on :p. If you were me, would yo go for it?

[poisondeathray]

If 24p was important to me, I would shoot 24pN , or at worst 24p in 60i. I would never do a framerate conversion

[n0an]

If 24p was important to me, I would shoot 24pN , or at worst 24p in 60i. I would never do a framerate conversion

Alright, thanks for the replies. I will get back to you once I get the cam (either) and share my experience :cool:.