Windows Movie Maker / MPEG-4

[Wolf_22]

I have a Samsung 8 GB Progressive HD Digital Camcorder that saves its movies in MPEG-4 format. I've had a fun time trying to get the files to import successfully into Windows Movie Maker (or just about anything, for that matter) and I was hoping that some of you more seasoned video experts might have an approach in mind for this issue.

How do I import these files?

[audyovydeo]

I have a Samsung 8 GB Progressive HD Digital Camcorder that saves its movies in MPEG-4 format. I've had a fun time trying to get the files to import successfully into Windows Movie Maker (or just about anything, for that matter) and I was hoping that some of you more seasoned video experts might have an approach in mind for this issue.

How do I import these files?

MPEG-4 is the container. The codec is MPEG4p2 -type (DivX, Xvid, etc) or MPEG4p10 (H264, AVCHD, etc) ?

depending on the codec, you have different options.
I don't know what level of editing you are planning to do, but Windows Movie Maker is the very last piece of software I'd recommend. Besides, it would export only to WMV, while your movies are very probably already in AVC.
I'm sure your camcorder was delivered with some editing software capable of handling the format. What is it ?

cheers
audyovydeo

[Wolf_22]

Codec aside, I'm simply trying to add a few sub-titles in the movies and merge the files that I have.

I'm at work right now, but once I get home, I'll look to see what codec I have.

[Wolf_22]

MPEG-4 is the container. The codec is MPEG4p2 -type (DivX, Xvid, etc) or MPEG4p10 (H264, AVCHD, etc) ?

depending on the codec, you have different options.
I don't know what level of editing you are planning to do, but Windows Movie Maker is the very last piece of software I'd recommend. Besides, it would export only to WMV, while your movies are very probably already in AVC.
I'm sure your camcorder was delivered with some editing software capable of handling the format. What is it ?

cheers
audyovydeo


Okay audyovydeo, I finally got home today and had a chance to see exactly what my codec is for these files. According to a program called "MediaInfo", the codec to these MPEG-4 files appears to be "AVC" (NTSC).

Yes, it (my camcorder) did come with an application to do what I intend on doing, but as luck usually has it in my reality, the disk is scratched beyond functionality--hence the Windows Movie Maker alternative.

Do you have any advice / input for me in this? Again, I need to take these files and do whatever it takes to load them into Windows Movie Maker so that I can add sub-titles as well as merge separate files for a friend who graduated recently (but also, for myself for future use, too) in making at-home DVDs.

Thanks again for any help.

[Wolf_22]

hsia, I love you! That program works PERFECTLY! Thank you so much!

[audyovydeo]

hsia, I love you! That program works PERFECTLY! Thank you so much!

While I do not doubt that the program works perfectly, be aware that you are converting THE top-of-the-line in terms of [open] video technology to a 8+ year old [proprietary] codec.

Subtitles can be added to your video in any number of ways. Dumping your video quality & portability seems a shame.

my 2 cents
auydovydeo

[Wolf_22]

While I do not doubt that the program works perfectly, be aware that you are converting THE top-of-the-line in terms of [open] video technology to a 8+ year old [proprietary] codec.

By "proprietary", are you referring to the video files that I have? Because the only software that I've EVER been able to use on them (to do things like add subtitles) was the software that came on that scratched-up disc that came with my camcorder, hence, proprietary. If that program converts my "newer more modern" video files to files that use older codecs, then sure, I would prefer to have a program that can convert these files into a type that is both more modernized and malleable for Windows Movie Maker.

To that end, what free program would you advise me to use to convert these files into a format that might be easily editable by something like Windows Movie Maker? Also, what free program would you advise me to use to do things like add subtitles and merge numerous files together to, say, 1 single AVI file?

[audyovydeo]

By "proprietary", are you referring to the video files that I have? Because the only software that I've EVER been able to use on them (to do things like add subtitles) was the software that came on that scratched-up disc that came with my camcorder, hence, proprietary. If that program converts my "newer more modern" video files to files that use older codecs, then sure, I would prefer to have a program that can convert these files into a type that is both more modernized and malleable for Windows Movie Maker.


I don't invent neologisms, I use words' current meanings :
WMV (codec + container) is property of Microsoft.
H.264 / AVC are ISO standards.


To that end, what free program would you advise me to use to convert these files into a format that might be easily editable by something like Windows Movie Maker?

I have no idea : I don't do Windows Movie Maker.
I use any number of software, including (but not limited to) Avisynth, Virtualdub, Adobe Premiere.

Good editing !
audyovydeo

[grv575]

I don't invent neologisms, I use words' current meanings :
WMV (codec + container) is property of Microsoft.
H.264 / AVC are ISO standards.




I have no idea : I don't do Windows Movie Maker.
I use any number of software, including (but not limited to) Avisynth, Virtualdub, Adobe Premiere.

Good editing !
audyovydeo

WMV 9 AP (aka VC-1) is an open standard (though proprietary codec), state of the art, and actively developed. It's either AVC or VC-1 if you release a BluRay disc...

[audyovydeo]

WMV 9 AP (aka VC-1) is an open standard (though proprietary codec), state of the art, and actively developed. It's either AVC or VC-1 if you release a BluRay disc...

Sure, but try exporting to VC-1 with Windows Movie Maker ... ;-)

cheers
a/v

[RunningSkittle]

if hes just adding subtitles, then skip movie maker entirely and just use Subtitle() or VobSub() in AviSynth

[grv575]

Sure, but try exporting to VC-1 with Windows Movie Maker ... ;-)

cheers
a/v

So h264 being 7 years old is now state of the art whereas wmv being 8 years old is not?

On a related note, I'd file a bug report with ffdshow but noone would care (no prestige in fixing unknown bugs).

[Dark Shikari]

So h264 being 7 years old is now state of the art whereas wmv being 8 years old is not?

On a related note, I'd file a bug report with ffdshow but noone would care (no prestige in fixing unknown bugs).VC-1 is simply a standardized version of WMV9.

WMV9 itself is much, much older than H.264.

[grv575]

VC-1 is simply a standardized version of WMV9.

WMV9 itself is much, much older than H.264.

Nice try. WMV9 AP. And I suppose you think VC-1 is no longer under active development since you can't browse the latest check-ins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMV3

[anyone23]

Sure, but try exporting to VC-1 with Windows Movie Maker ... ;-)

cheers
a/v
No problem with the Movie Maker 6.0 in Windows Vista. :)

With the Windows Media Encoder 9 Series (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=CC41218D-7E37-4546-BF0B-1276959EE3EF&displaylang=en) you can even create a lossless profile but I haven't been able to open this kind of files yet. :(

[Dark Shikari]

Nice try. WMV9 AP. And I suppose you think VC-1 is no longer under active development since you can't browse the latest check-ins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMV3VC-1 is a specification. There are no "check-ins" for a specification.

And WMV9 AP is not particularly significantly different from WMV9 MP. It really doesn't matter when the spec was made; if the decoder code for VC-1 is 99% overlapping with the decoder code for WMV9, it's practically the same thing, no matter what games they play with the name of the spec.

Why do you constantly post your misinformation all over Doom9? Seriously, almost every single post you've made in the past few days has been wrong and misleading.

[grv575]

VC-1 is a specification. There are no "check-ins" for a specification.

And WMV9 AP is not particularly significantly different from WMV9 MP. It really doesn't matter when the spec was made; if the decoder code for VC-1 is 99% overlapping with the decoder code for WMV9, it's practically the same thing, no matter what games they play with the name of the spec.

Why do you constantly post your misinformation all over Doom9? Seriously, almost every single post you've made in the past few days has been wrong and misleading.

Just not a huge fan of blind MS hate. You can't seriously believe that they aren't actively researching/developing their codec.

[Dark Shikari]

Just not a huge fan of blind MS hate. You can't seriously believe that they aren't actively researching/developing their codec.Of course they are. Just look at the updated and improved versions of Expression Encoder that have come out lately, leveraging the latest VC-1 SDK. But VC-1 isn't a codec: it's a specification. The specification hasn't changed. You're comparing it to H.264, another specification--again, not a codec.

If you want to talk about software, compare software (e.g. "VC-1 SDK" and "x264" and "Mainconcept H.264" and "Xvid"), not specifications ("H.264", "VC-1", "MPEG-4 ASP", etc).

[grv575]

Of course they are. Just look at the updated and improved versions of Expression Encoder that have come out lately, leveraging the latest VC-1 SDK. But VC-1 isn't a codec: it's a specification. The specification hasn't changed. You're comparing it to H.264, another specification--again, not a codec.

If you want to talk about software, compare software (e.g. "VC-1 SDK" and "x264" and "Mainconcept H.264" and "Xvid"), not specifications ("H.264", "VC-1", "MPEG-4 ASP", etc).

Nitpicky. I was simply responding to

While I do not doubt that the program works perfectly, be aware that you are converting THE top-of-the-line in terms of [open] video technology to a 8+ year old [proprietary] codec.

wmv is ahead of xvid and comparable to h264 fwiw

[audyovydeo]

Nitpicky. I was simply responding to


Since you mentioned Windows Movie Maker, of which I know only XP implementation, I comparing H.264 to WMV9, not VC1.

To put things in perspective, bashing on forums is as old as forums. I remember MicroSoft actively bashing OS/2 on Compuserve forums, back in the days of the OS wars (some of you may not have been born at the time ;-)

Go ahead, encode with your favourite codec. I assure I am completely indifferent to your choice !

cheers
a/v

[benwaggoner]

Sure, but try exporting to VC-1 with Windows Movie Maker ... ;-)
Windows Media Video 9==VC-1. So yes, Movie Maker exports SMPTE spec compatible VC-1 bitstreams in an ASF wrapper.

[benwaggoner]

And WMV9 AP is not particularly significantly different from WMV9 MP. It really doesn't matter when the spec was made; if the decoder code for VC-1 is 99% overlapping with the decoder code for WMV9, it's practically the same thing, no matter what games they play with the name of the spec.
Well, from a compression efficiency perspective, it's not THAT different. AP added Differential Quantization for intra-coded blocks (hence I-frames) and a few other minor features that can help compression. I-frame DQuant can be very helpful for long-GOP content, however, particularly with low noise.

The bigger improvements were in features related to professional video applications, particuarly a good interlaced video coding mode, and bitstream independence so it's not tied to the ASF file format as closely. That's why Smooth Streaming with VC-1 has to be AP, since *.ismv uses fragmented MPEG-4 as the file format, Blu-ray VC-1 is AP only, etcetera. MP is generally fine for PC web rate applications.

[benwaggoner]

Just not a huge fan of blind MS hate. You can't seriously believe that they aren't actively researching/developing their codec.
Speaking as a Microsoft guy, I can't think of any blind MS hate ever coming from Dark Shakiri. When he'd hated stuff we've done, it's been with eyes wide open :).

Anyway, the codec wars are long over from Microsoft's perspective. Windows 7 has pretty equivalent decode/encode support for both VC-1 and H.264, as does Silverlight, Zune, Xbox, Silverlight, etcetera.

And yes, there are improvements in VC-1 coming out of Microsoft; Windows 7 and Expression Encoder 3 both had big performance improvements and some quality improvements compared to the previous versions, and there's more stuff in the pipeline that be in products soon.

But from my perspective, I don't care whether someone has a great Silverlight experience with a file encoded via x264 or EEv3; it's that great experience I'm shooting for.

The primary reasons one would actively choose VC-1 over H.264 these days would be:

Targeting playback on pre Win 7 desktops where there may not be a H.264 decoder. This is a big issue for enterprise managed desktops.
Quality/resolution is bound by decode complexity. VC-1 is faster to decode in software, and has hardware accelerated decode on more currently deployed GPUs.

Whether or not those factors are relevant depends highly on the scenario.

[benwaggoner]

Since you mentioned Windows Movie Maker, of which I know only XP implementation, I comparing H.264 to WMV9, not VC1.
Also, the XP version is, of course, very old. The current version is Windows Live Movie Maker.

http://download.live.com/moviemaker

It should use whatever DirectShow/MediaFoundation decoders you've got, so if you run it on Win 7, I imagine it'll handle AVCHD and other H.264 source formats just fine. Ffdshow may be sufficient as well, but I haven't tried it.

There's also a publishing plugin API for it, so I bet it'd be pretty easy for someone to write an x264 exporter for Movie Maker.

http://blogs.msdn.com/pix/pages/Plug_2D00_ins.aspx

[audyovydeo]

Also, the XP version is, of course, very old. The current version is Windows Live Movie Maker.

http://download.live.com/moviemaker

It should use whatever DirectShow/MediaFoundation decoders you've got, so if you run it on Win 7, I imagine it'll handle AVCHD and other H.264 source formats just fine.

*Should* is the keyword apparently.
I was eager to download, but the web installer shows all "Live Essentials" apps *except* Movie Maker .... I will leave bashing to bashers... have a good (er... experience-full) day.

cheers
audyovydeo

PS : I'd missed the fine print : "*Note: Windows Live Movie Maker is not available for Windows XP or earlier versions of Windows."
My bad (I love it when I get to use this obscure expression !)