Capture Cards with reasonably good Y/C separation (comb filter)

[scharfis_brain]

Hello everyone.

I am looking for a PCI (PCIe) based capture card, that has a good Y/C comb filter like the ones seen in recent Flatscreen TVs.

The internal Comb filter of the SAA7134 chip of my current capture card doesn't please me any more. Even with additional postprocessing via AVISynth.

Are there any suggestions to follow?

[dannotto]

Every card with 3D comb filter will be better. Saa7134 has a decent 2D adaptive comb filter but today are available better solution. Only 3D comb filters can do perfect separation (on static and low motion scenes) between luminace signal over the chrominace signal. I think you also need uncompressed output. Some card (Asus MyCinema-PE6300) has 3D filter but is active only for mpeg ouput.

My hint:
Theatre 550: 2D comb filter with 5 line scaning + 3D comb filter
Theatre 650 or Theatre HD 750: 2D comb filter with 5 line + 3D Motion Adaptive comb filter
The only card (PCIe) with Theatre HD 750 available today is ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750.

Other cards with 3D comb filter are driven by Saa7163, Saa7164 (ASUS EHD2-100, Hauppage 2250, Compro E900F, Compro E850F) or Conexant CX23887, CX23888 and CX23418. How good are these? I don`t know.

If you buy ATI then follow these tips:
Do not install the drivers from the CD because they are old. Download the latest version of the ATI site
Uses the latest stable version of VirtualDub
Uses lossless compression with HuffYUV or Lagarith. HuffYUV requires ~ 27 GB per hour (Pal). Lagarith compress better but needs more CPU power. Also has support for multicore CPU.

At Video tick:
Overlay,
Video Source> composite Capture Pin > 25 Frame rate, Color space YUY2, Output size 720x576
Capture Filter: Filters properties > you can raise the volume up to 255, Video decoder > Pal
Crossbar: Video Composite In
Output > Audio Decoder Out = audio line in <Input, Also tick Related Link Stream
Compresion > Huffyuv or Lagarith

At Audio tick these:
Enable audio capture
Volume meter
Don`t tick Enable Audio Playback during capture because you get dropped frames
Capture Device
Source Audio> Audio Line

At Capture tick only > Timing > Do not resync between audio and video stream
Automatically disable resync when integrated audio / video capture is detected

From the File> Set Capture File

Also from Task Manager Set High priority for VirtualDub, Antivirus should be off during capture

Comb filter from Saa713x and ATI 3D in action (static scenes):

[scharfis_brain]

Thanks for these hints.

I am looking for capture-only cards.
So graphics cards with Video-In are no option.
Especially ATI based cards. I personally banned ATI, cause of their ridiculous drivers (catalyst control panel).

Currently I got this capture card: Terratec Cinergy 400 PCI.

I'd like to replace it.
The replacement should offer Composite as well as S-Video inputs, and optionally a TV-Tuner.
YUY2 capturing is mandatory.

[dannotto]

I mentioned nothing about Ati AIW card. All my recommendations are dedicate TV tuner cards. Theatre 550, Theatre 650 are ATI ADC which power tv tuner cards (Sapphire Theatrix, http://www1.sapphiretech.com/en/products/multimedia_specifications.php?gpid=114 PowerColor 550 or 650 http://www.powercolor.com/global/product_theater550pro_pcie.html, http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=8os7CujiW57042Tt&templete=2).
You can have nVidia video card and ATI tuner. If don`t like ATI and if look for 3D comb then your options are Philips ADC (now NXP) or Conexant ADC mentionated above. And only if are able to send uncompressed signal. I can`t guarantee YUY2 for these.
To work dedicated ATI tuners need just WDM drivers. Catalyst control panel is for video cards.

[scharfis_brain]

Ah thanks. I didn't know that ATI also offers capture only boards.

I will have a look around.

[FlimsyFeet]

dannotto, those images are really good for showing the difference a 3D comb filter makes.

scharfis, if your current card has an s-video input, you could try using some other device in between your composite source and the capture card which might have a better comb filet built in, e.g. a DVD recorder (or the flat screen TV you mentioned, but that would be unlikely to give an s-video outpot I would think).

[juhok]

@dannotto

Can I download that test pattern from somewhere? I'd be interested to compare Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe(SAA7118) and Datavideo TBC-1000(composite->s-video) with your results.

[zilog jones]

I'm sure a Snell & Wilcox testcard can't be downloaded, not legally anyway.
Thanks for the comparison dannotto, I also have a SAA7134 based card and didn't know how bad the comb filter was compared to others.

[scharfis_brain]

I have sources that are composite only.
So S-Video Inputs are no option.


The difference of these images is really impressive.

[dannotto]

@dannotto

Can I download that test pattern from somewhere? I'd be interested to compare Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe(SAA7118) and Datavideo TBC-1000(composite->s-video) with your results.

The pattern can be found on Digital Video Essentials disc (not free content).
Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe has two ADC: SAA7118 (the big chip) and BT878. If SAA7118 handle composite input the quality will be the same like in the picture posted by me because SAA7118 and SAA713x have the same characteristics regarding video processing. SAA713x integrates a demodulator and PCI interface. If BT878 process composite signal (unlikely) the quality will be lower because comb filter is basic (notch filter).
Datavideo TBC-1000 is driven by Philips SAA7114 ADC, part of the same family of 9 bit with the same adaptive comb filter. So, both devices (Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe and Datavideo TBC-1000) must have the same performance in terms of Y/C separation.

A free benchmark disc with EIA 1956 resolution patern is is given by Tvblink. You must download the ISO image and burn on DVD blank. http://www.tvblink.com/i_dvd.html
I also have a SAA7134 based card and didn't know how bad the comb filter was compared to others.
Very few tv tuner cards have 3D comb filter. Most of them use a adaptive comb filter.

[Chainmax]

dannotto, nothing of what I have seen thus far from the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 mentions NTSC capture, does that mean that you can't capture NTSC stuff with it? Although I live in Uruguay which is a PAL country, many home made (and commercial too, if I recall correctly) VHSs are NTSC...

extra question: if using a card like the abovementioned one, do you guys think a full featured VHS deck like, say, the Panasonic 1980 or the JVC 9900 would be better than any VCR+an external TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000 juhok mentioned?

[juhok]

@dannotto
Thanks for the info and link. I've been looking for such a disk for a while now. :p I guess there's no need to test any of my comb filters when the results are known already. I rarely need composite input so this haven't got my attention before. I've been eyeballing Blackmagic line of capture devices. Need something that'll work with 64bit OS/Win7 and the input options are impressive (eg. Decklink Studio).

I checked my other TBC, 1T-TBC and it has same SAA7114 and SAA7129. Picture attached.

@Chainmax
Internal TBC in JVC/Panasonic line of decks and external TBC like TBC-1000 are for different purposes and often(but not always) I find myself needing both. Internal TBC fixes visible time base error where external TBC will clean the signal to prevent framedrops etc. Sometimes JVC's internal TBC will produce jitter with bad tapes and you have to turn it off. Panasonic is better in this regard (limited experience with Panasonic so far).

Then again, when I capture from Sony EV-S9000 Hi8 deck its internal TBC and framesync are stable enough that I never need external TBC. Same with professional BetacamSP deck (no surprise there).

[dannotto]

dannotto, nothing of what I have seen thus far from the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 mentions NTSC capture, does that mean that you can't capture NTSC stuff with it?

Yes it can. Has worldwide support.
many home made (and commercial too, if I recall correctly) VHSs are NTSC...
Not true. Paraguay and Uruguay, has the PAL standard 625 line/50 fields per second system with the NTSC subcarrier frequency. The VHS tapes recorded in your country are in PAL. To see these tapes you need PAL (european) vcr.

extra question: if using a card like the abovementioned one, do you guys think a full featured VHS deck like, say, the Panasonic 1980 or the JVC 9900 would be better than any VCR+an external TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000 juhok mentioned?
Yes, will be better. For NTSC tapes you need US model. For PAL tapes (tapes made in Uruguay and Europe) you need Pal VCR. Most of the Pal vcr can also play NTSC tape in PAL60. TBC from Panasonic PAL SVHS vcr is off during NTSC tapes playback. This card don`t support PAL60 system.
DataVideo TBC-1000 act like a frame synchronizer. I will help with weak vertical synch but will not fix time base errors (wavy lines). TBC from JVC and Panasonic SVHS vcr can do true time base correction.

You should look for PAL JVC SVHS vcr with DigiPure (7600 model and up).

Panasonic PAL SVHS vcr with TBC and DNR
Panasonic NV-FS 200 a.k.a. Panasonic AG-1980P (NTSC version)
Panasonic NV-HS 950
Panasonic NV-HS 860
Panasonic NV-HS 930
Panasonic NV-HS 960
Panasonic NV-SV 121


I guess there's no need to test any of my comb filters when the results are known already.
There may be differences due to build device quality.
juhok, the Asus My Cinema 750 have Win7 support. For analog SD this card is ok. If you need SDI and HD take Blackmagic. For a complete SD professional solution you should look at AJA XENA LS.
http://www.aja.com/products/xena/xena-lse-ls.php

[juhok]

@dannotto

Thanks for the AJA XENA tip, I've somehow missed this option completely. With quick reading to the specs and drivers it seems almost too good to be true. It might even work with Virtualdub with the WDM drivers(?). It seem to have reasonable capturing program of it's own with avisynth readable output so VD is not a must (I don't fancy expensive NLE software for this simple task).

About the JVC/Digipure.. owning half a dozen different JVC models I'd say turn it off and use avisynth (if time is not important)! :devil:

@scharfis_brain

Sorry for hijacking your thread. :p

Here's some tests I made;

DVD (Y*C)> 1T-TBC (Y/C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T-TBC_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T-TBC_resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/1T-TBC_resolution_lines.png
DVD (Y*C)> TBC-1000 (Y/C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TBC-1000_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TBC-1000_resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/TBC-1000_resolution_lines.png
DVD (Y*C)> Sweetspot/PDI Deluxe
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PDI-Direct_bleeding.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PDI-Direct_resolution.png
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/PDI-Direct_resolution_lines.png

[dannotto]

About the JVC/Digipure.. owning half a dozen different JVC models I'd say turn it off and use avisynth (if time is not important)! :devil:
It is a bad idea to turn off TBC. Tbc errors have a negative effect on noise removal and compression. Even in still areas is much movement because pixels are jumping from one place to another. Noise removal and compression efficiency is increased when the image is time base errors free (steady image). At JVC vcr, TBC and DNR are tied together. So if you turn off DNR you also turn off the TBC. At Panasonic SVHS vcr both functions have dedicated buttons. You can enable only TBC and leave off DNR.
Avisynth power is almost unlimited on noise removal but have no solutions for time base errors.

1T-TBC has a low bandwidth that will affect the quality from SuperVHS tapes sources. The levels are wrong with this device. TBC-1000 has an appropriate bandwidth and can be used with SVHS tapes.

[juhok]

It is a bad idea to turn off TBC. Tbc errors have a negative effect on noise removal and compression. Even in still areas is much movement because pixels are jumping from one place to another. Noise removal and compression efficiency is increased when the image is time base errors free (steady image). At JVC vcr, TBC and DNR are tied together. So if you turn off DNR you also turn off the TBC. At Panasonic SVHS vcr both functions have dedicated buttons. You can enable only TBC and leave off DNR.
Avisynth power is almost unlimited on noise removal but have no solutions for time base errors.Not true. You can turn noise reduction off seperately from TBC in most JVC models. Only one that I've owned that doesn't allow this is S7965.This is wrong (read next message).


1T-TBC has a low bandwidth that will affect the quality from SuperVHS tapes sources. The levels are wrong with this device. TBC-1000 has an appropriate bandwidth and can be used with SVHS tapes.Again, not true. Levels are not wrong. I just didn't match them with this test. 1T has AGC that will affect the levels - it is different that TBC-1000 but it is not wrong. Also the low bandwith is only seen at Composite->S-Video seperation. It's fine when using S-Video->S-video (I was testing only the comb filter here and in that regard it failed). 1T has it's share of problems but lack of bandwith hasn't been one of them in normal Y/C usage.

[dannotto]

Not true. You can turn noise reduction off seperately from TBC in most JVC models. Only one that I've owned that doesn't allow this is S7965.


http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1316148&postcount=18

[juhok]

@dannotto

I stand corrected regarding TBC/NR & 3R issue. I checked the menus and manuals on my decks. I've somehow been constantly misreading/interpreting the "3R" as "NR" in the menu. I apologize. :eek:

[scharfis_brain]

I've got a JVC HR S-9500 and its temporal noise reduction filter is always on.
I cannot disable it no matter what I do.
the TBC/NR button just toggles the TBC. and Digital 3R makes temporal smear just worse.

This is the reason why I don't want to use the JVC any more.

with the forced temporal pre-denoising of this VHS deck every attempt to do a proper camera image stabilization (deshaker) will fail.

So I need a S-VHS deck with EDIT mode (no vertical chroma blur and no sharpening) and also with a TBC but no DNR.

[zilog jones]

As dannotto said the high-end Panasonic VCRs offer TBC with separate DNR. I have an NV-HS960 and it's pretty good (has lots of features completely useless for just playback though like Tape Library and fancy brushed aluminium bezel), though I find the TBC makes things a bit worse on very good tapes (outside of the odd dropout).

[Ghitulescu]

So I need a S-VHS deck with EDIT mode (no vertical chroma blur and no sharpening) and also with a TBC but no DNR.

I use an AG7600 with ED TBC Enhancer (synch back to VCR) and a Pio DVR7000. The audio gets though a profi correction chain. The video goes Y/C, the audio BAL upto Pio which needs UNBAL. The results are excellent and in RealTime. The only editing I do is cutting them accordingly and authoring the DVD. If I need fancy things I simply use XP mode (1h, audio LPCM), edit with transitions and smart encode, then shrink to DVDR (but no lower than 70%). Except for authoring and editing, the speed is given by the HDD.

I sense no delay (due to TBC, any TBC induces a delay, maybe it's because of the synch, I don't know, I don't care).

[dannotto]

I've got a JVC HR S-9500 and its temporal noise reduction filter is always on.
I cannot disable it no matter what I do.
the TBC/NR button just toggles the TBC. and Digital 3R makes temporal smear just worse.

This is the reason why I don't want to use the JVC any more.

with the forced temporal pre-denoising of this VHS deck every attempt to do a proper camera image stabilization (deshaker) will fail.

So I need a S-VHS deck with EDIT mode (no vertical chroma blur and no sharpening) and also with a TBC but no DNR.

The only alternative to JVC (PAL SVHS vcr with TBC) is Panasonic models mentionated above. Some models from Panasonic (NV-FS200, NV-HS950, NV-HS1000) can be found under Blaupunk and Metz name, both well known brands in Germany.

BLAUPUNKT RTV-950 = Panasonic NV-FS200
Metz S-VHS VC62 = Panasonic NV-HS950
Blaupunkt RTV-965 = Panasonic NV-HS1000

[deathtical]

I like all the info here, but I have a question if i may. Everyone seems to be coming from the point of capturing video from a VCR. I have a laserdisc player that I would like to capture video from. I don't have a large collection of LDs but almost everything I have on LD is only available on LD. No one has picked up the licenses to produce them on DVD or Bluray. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good device (USB, Firewire, or PCI) for capturing video over RCA (Y/W/R) cable. I'm not trying to break the bank as my collection is small. If anyone could recommend something that is say under $100 would be great. Some of the devices you guys have listed here are $200+ some even as high as $600+. I don't want to come over as cheap but that would be like paying $20-$100 per LD I want to capture. Also, someone in another part of the forums suggested I get something that would allow me to capture in YUY2. If that is sound advice, can a device capable of doing it be found in my budget? Thanks guys.

[dannotto]

Laserdisc is a composite video format: the luminance (black and white) and chrominance (color) information are transmitted in one signal and comb filter is needed to separate them. This thread cover this issue: cards with good comb filter. There are solutions for everyone`s pocket. Read from the beginning.

[juhok]

Anyone got Blackmagic Intensity Pro and care to comment on it's composite quality (or some other pro card)? :thanks:

[Ghitulescu]

I'm not trying to break the bank as my collection is small. If anyone could recommend something that is say under $100 would be great. Some of the devices you guys have listed here are $200+ some even as high as $600+. I don't want to come over as cheap but that would be like paying $20-$100 per LD I want to capture.

I taped once some comedy shows that are extremely unlikely to be rediffused (TV, VHS, DVD you name it).

I went hunting a profi VCR and I lost one on eBay at some 550€ (some 10€ per hour). I won an auction afterwards for 50€ and got a complete SVHS studio (two profi players, mixer, titler, genlock, cables etc.). The TBC was found on a fleamarket, for a puny 3€ (last time I checked on eBay were still 250€ used).

So with a bit of luck you can succeed, considering the fact that the recordings are unique.

[pitsie]

@dannotto
Ok, I am trying to buy the Asus My Cinema ES2-750 in europe and don't seem to find it. Can you tell me a euro-webshop that has the thing in stock?
Thanks for all.

[dannotto]

These stores are in Germany, some of them send in other countries (EU countries). You must ask before. Take a look:
http://geizhals.at/deutschland/a473614.html

Austria stores:
http://geizhals.at/a473614.html

UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B002L4G4ZS/ref=asc_df_B002L4G4ZS535267?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=geizhals07-21&creative=7978&creativeASIN=B002L4G4ZS&linkCode=asm

[pitsie]

Thank you! It is funny that no shop or web store sells these in Spain!

[hrgiger6]

I also am capturing from laserdisc and pal/ntsc vhs. I like the comb filters of the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 but will it capture an analog composite signal? If so how I don't see a jack for it. Which cards would be able to capture composite and s-video and have the 2d/3d comb filtering of the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750??

[dannotto]

If so how I don't see a jack for it. In the package is a "Video-in & Audio-in Adaptor" with S-Video and composite connections. For others questions read the thread from the beginning.

[Pinto007]

I am looking for a PCI (PCIe) based capture card, that has a good Y/C comb filter like the ones seen in recent Flatscreen TVs.

The internal Comb filter of the SAA7134 chip of my current capture card doesn't please me any more. Even with additional postprocessing via AVISynth.

Are there any suggestions to follow?

There is a cheaper(?) and better(?) solution: buy S-VHS VCR - it will work as very good Y/C separator in passthrough mode :)

I also am capturing from laserdisc and pal/ntsc vhs. I like the comb filters of the ASUS My Cinema-ES2-750 but will it capture an analog composite signal? If so how I don't see a jack for it.

The same as above. Buy good S-VHS VCR and connect it between laserdisc and Asus capture card.

[juhok]

IIRC I tried pass-thru with JVC SVHS's (9xxx, 7xxx) and results were less than spectacular. Same story with professional JVC DV deck (BR600).

[zilog jones]

I tried with my VCR (Panasonic NV-HS960) to see if it has some sort of passthrough function - it didn't seem to make any difference when capturing with my SAA7134 card. It claims to have a 3D comb filter but I guess it only works on the tape output.

[dannotto]

All the nice features (TBC, DNR, comb filter) from a high end vcr are available only for the tape. None of them work in a pass-through mode.

[zilog jones]

I was assuming that was the case with the TBC and DNR, but was hoping for more with the comb filter :) I guess that makes sense though, thanks.

[Ghitulescu]

I heard that some Panasonic allow their TBC to be used in pass-through, people swear on Ag-1980P (for US, the closest model in EU would be the NV-FS200). But we come around to the issue: what is a TBC.

The profi VCRs do always have a composite input (BNC) as this was the studio standard long time ago and for long time. Of course they feature also other outputs as well. Some newer ones might have Hosiden S-Video outputs (usually they have proprietary connectors).

If I'll have time, maybe I'll give a try to my AG7600 in pass-through to see if it has a good comb filter. Never had this curiosity as this VCR outputs Y/C directly.
----
I know it has one of the best 3D comb filters around, just I don't know how much does it affect the signal separation in pass-through mode.

[lordsmurf]

I've beat the 'what is a TBC' topic a lot lately. Not every company agrees (or is honest about!) the question of What is a timebase corrector? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html) [3rd post down]

I'm not readily aware of a S-VHS VCR that does pass-through. (Note that I have an AG1980.) That tends to be a feature mostly found on a few DVD recorders, and some video cameras, and that's it. The VCR comb filtering output -- that is typically pretty good.

You don't even need a "working" VCR necessarily! It doesn't have to play tapes, just work in other aspects. Any functioning deck will act as the comb filter. (I have an extra I'm not using.)

[jmac698]

Hmm, very interesting. I should be able to make a free testpattern that can prove the comb filter is 2d or 3d. As far as pass through, there is a device I bought from The Source which is a distribution amplifier, with the added feature that composite inputs are automatically turned into svideo outputs.
Actually it is one input to 4 outputs, with both composite and svideo as inputs or outputs, thought he svideo input takes priority if plugged in.

[Ghitulescu]

A good comb filter adds at least 100€ to the price of the device it includes it.
Separating composite into Y/C can be done as cheaper as adding a capacitor and let the receiving device do the real separation.

[juhok]

Anyone got Blackmagic Intensity Pro and care to comment on it's composite quality (or some other pro card)? :thanks:Not really any better than $10 BT8x8. Blackmagic Decklink Studio that is. I doubt Intensity is any different being entry level.

[hrgiger6]

Separating composite into Y/C can be done as cheaper as adding a capacitor and let the receiving device do the real separation.

Boy I sure would like to hear more about that! Can you tell us about that?? :thanks:

[Ghitulescu]

Boy I sure would like to hear more about that! Can you tell us about that?? :thanks:

Using a capacitor you can split the signal into two without too much interference: the Y/C lines carry the same signal, the receiving device receives therefore the same signal on both inputs, its Y-input rejects the chroma while its C-input rejects the luma. Virtually all new generations of S-VHSs or S-Video-enabled gear can do this. It's a bit worse than using its composite input, but it works.

[pitsie]

@Dannotto
I could find the Asus card in Holland and also a reasonably priced Panasonic VCR (AG-4700) in Ebay Germany. The quality of my captures has improved *a lot*.
I am very happy!
Thank you very much for your help!
Two questions:
do you recommend to activate de "AI setting" on the VCR?
is there any setting I have to activate in Virtualdub to get the best Y/C separation?
I am encoding in mpeg2 with tmpgenc xpress and I am very happy with the results!

[Ghitulescu]

@Dannotto
I could find the Asus card in Holland and also a reasonably priced Panasonic VCR (AG-4700) in Ebay Germany. The quality of my captures has improved *a lot*.
I am very happy!
Thank you very much for your help!
Two questions:
do you recommend to activate de "AI setting" on the VCR?
is there any setting I have to activate in Virtualdub to get the best Y/C separation?
I am encoding in mpeg2 with tmpgenc xpress and I am very happy with the results!

The effect AI has depends on the source, so test it both ways.

Y/C separation is a hardware thing not a software one.

[pitsie]

what do you recommend with the "PICTURE" slider SOFT-SHARP mine is now in the middle...

[Ghitulescu]

There's a switch called EDIT. Use it unless you need to modify the sharpness (soft-sharp).

[dannotto]

do you recommend to activate de "AI setting" on the VCR?
"AI setting"= Auto sharpness. Hard to tell, because on some tape with AI on the picture may add have more noise. I can`t give a rule. Make some test before and see.
is there any setting I have to activate in Virtualdub to get the best Y/C separation?
Comb filter is always on when you use composite input. Is related to card. I recommend to use S-video connection from your vcr. For some tape (multi genarations made on cheap vcr) composite link may give you a better quality because the card have a good comb filter and will clean the Y/C artefacts made on earlier recording by cheap vcr. For master tape (first recording) S-Video is the way to go.

I am encoding in mpeg2 with tmpgenc xpress and I am very happy with the results!
HC encoder is better and free.

what do you recommend with the "PICTURE" slider SOFT-SHARP mine is now in the middle...
Depend, on noisy tapes "sharp mode" will increase the noise and is not recommended. On tape in good shape "soft mode" will kill the detail.

[Ghitulescu]

There's a switch called EDIT. Use it unless you need to modify the sharpness (soft-sharp).
Apparently there's no direct access switch to cut off all the "improvements". This button was on all new Pannies so I assumed it was also present here. The EDIT button on this deck does other things. Therefore it should be a "click" in the middle of the sharpness slider. If you have an edit controller set the EDIT to PASSIVE and command your deck from there - this mode will also kill the OSD on output.
"AI setting"= Auto sharpness.
Not really, it's more than this, and it works both ways, PLAY/REC.

[dannotto]

On playback it act as Auto Sharpness. On recording mode act as tape calibration.
Made some test if you don`t believe me and also check the manual.
From manual When Ai in ON the picture sharpness cannot be ajusted

[pitsie]

I recommend to use S-video connection from your vcr.

For S-VHS tapes or also for plain VHS tapes?

I think I will put sharpness in the middle... AI does not seem to do much

I am having sync problems with audio on long captures... any ideas? Should I split into smaller chunks?

Thanks again!

[dannotto]

For S-VHS tapes or also for plain VHS tapes?
For both.

By default VirtualDub try to resync when audio is captured with the help of sound card. Are unnecessary for capture cards with integrated audio ADC.
With these settings and TBC On (jitter free) I don`t have such issue, even with long 4 hours tape or 12 hours long recording over RF input.
At Capture tick only > Timing > Do not resync between audio and video stream
Automatically disable resync when integrated audio / video capture is detected

[pitsie]

I think I have exactly that. I unchecked everything else but those options.

I don't think I have as much a drift but a constant issue (does not seem to increase with time)

My audio is a whisper ahead of my video from the start. How can I slightly increase the delay?

At "Audio latency determination" I have "Automatic" and at "Number of audio blocks to use at start" by default is 30, what if I increase that number?

:thanks:

[dannotto]

I don`t know. Try and see.
With these types of card sync problems are gone. During capturing can be some sync issue but not in captured file. This can be related with directshow filters. Also if you play lossless captured file, sync issue may apear because this format is not intented as playback because is huge and hard to render at real time. Maybe these can help: At Video > Crossbar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/bmtwnzdyfww/crossbar.png

[Ghitulescu]

On playback it act as Auto Sharpness. On recording mode act as tape calibration.
Made some test if you don`t believe me and also check the manual.
From manual When Ai in ON the picture sharpness cannot be ajusted
I know this, but there are also other things AI does, also on playing. Auto-sharpness is one of them, auto-noise is another one. The manual is for normal users, and do not forget that no company in the world would disclose you all the "secrets". You need probably to read some internal documents (classified) or patents. In short, AI is not AutoSharpness, but AutoSharpness is one of the effects AI has.

1.For S-VHS tapes or also for plain VHS tapes?

2. I think I will put sharpness in the middle... AI does not seem to do much

3. I am having sync problems with audio on long captures... any ideas? Should I split into smaller chunks?

1 - S-VHS is not very different from VHS, just a little bit more of B/W bandwidth and some other small technicalities (OT). S-Video is the recommended way to go.

2 - try first using the EDIT setting (both in Menu and on the front panel).
I'm not familiar with this model, as it's just a mixture of profi/consumer (was directed to small enterprises to be used by non-specialists; since the enterprises must pay for each tuner unit, as opposed to private persons, in most countries I know, they'd simply taken out the tuner and painted it in dirty white, otherwise it's just the regular NV-HS1000).

That you don't see a big difference is not an indication that there's no difference, you can judge this only after having it's output encoded (MPEG-encoders are very sensitive to noise and fake sharpness). For good tapes there's always difficult to find a difference anyway ;) ...

3 - no; you shouldn't have synch problems, but if you do, then you have problems with your capturing hardware. Fix this first.
The mechanics of Ag4700 still remains that of a consumer gear, and if the cassette is old or presents various mechanical defects that prevent it from running smooth, you may have synch problems within the deck.
I ordinarily do a "dust removal" run, which also acts as a FWD/REW step, then capture in one go.

[dannotto]

I know this, but there are also other things AI does, also on playing. Auto-sharpness is one of them, auto-noise is another one. The manual is for normal users, and do not forget that no company in the world would disclose you all the "secrets". You need probably to read some internal documents (classified) or patents. In short, AI is not AutoSharpness, but AutoSharpness is one of the effects AI has.


Are so secret that not even their effect (auto sharpness) can not be revealed.

All VCR brands have a fancy name for a minor tehnology - auto sharpness. At Panasonic first was AI then renamed to CVC (Cristal Viev Control). At the last generation of Panasonic vcr this feature cannot be turnet off.
With JVC vcr the name ist BEST, for Sony is Trilogic.
The sharpness affect the noise on image but is not true noise reduction. It is a very simple way to cut down the high frequency, the place where is a part of noise but also the detail. DNR is true noise reduction where the noise removed and in the same time the detail is preserved as much is possible. The noise can have have all type of frequency (low, midle and high) and sharpness control can only remove the high frequency and in the same time all the detail.

[Ghitulescu]

There are several other noise types on the band than simply that one that goes with detail/sharpness. AI builds a sort of hiytogram (you know it probably from photo) and optimizes it further. Its most evident effect remain the sharpness (which is immediate to most people), then comes the background noise which is not really noticed, finally comes other small improvements on colours, even less noticed.

So saying AI is auto-sharpness is like saying "an auto is Ferarri", because that would exclude the Trabis.

[dannotto]

There are several other noise types on the band than simply that one that goes with detail/sharpness. AI builds a sort of hiytogram (you know it probably from photo) and optimizes it further. Its most evident effect remain the sharpness (which is immediate to most people), then comes the background noise which is not really noticed, finally comes other small improvements on colours, even less noticed.

So saying AI is auto-sharpness is like saying "an auto is Ferarri", because that would exclude the Trabis.

A analogue VCR made in 1993/1994 is so smart to perform a histogram and analyse the background?! LOL
It`s hard to accept the truth. My dialogue about a dumb feature stops here.

[Undead Sega]

Hi guys! I'm so sorry for bringing this old thread up, but this caught my eye:

@dannotto

Can I download that test pattern from somewhere? I'd be interested to compare Pixelmagic PDI Deluxe(SAA7118) and Datavideo TBC-1000(composite->s-video) with your results.

Is this even possible? Because I am so sure I did this myself and it doesnt work! I was really looking forward to what the results would've been from my HS-1000 via. composite and outputting S-video from my TBC-1000 :(

[juhok]

Works for me. :) I don't have the pictures/urls at hand but composite -> s-video passthru with TBC-100(0) sucks.

[Undead Sega]

Really?

And really??? Can you probably elaborate abit on why you think it's that bad? Surely the separation should visually improve the image quality somewhat.

[juhok]

I think it's bad because I've experimented with it and seen it so. Not many devices work like they could ideally do and TBC-100(0) most definitely doesn't. HS-1000 outputs good s-video, I haven't seen a device that would output better PQ from it's composite output compared to s-video. I can make some samples later if I remember. Would you rather see HS-1000 or DVD-player as a source if I compare TBC-100(0) separation quality?

[Undead Sega]

Ahhh i see, you own a HS-1000 yourself?

So are we trying to say that the TBC-1000 Y/C Separation is not good at all?

And for now I would say DVD player as a source purely because the material can be of higher quality and thus would be easier to judge :)

[juhok]

Yup, I would say it's not good at all. With DVD-source it's easier to see the problems. But HS-1000 might prove more useful for your scenario. I try to do both when I have time.. really overloaded atm.

[Undead Sega]

Ohhh okay then, well that would really be appreciated! I look forward to your samples when you get the time :D

So, what would you say is a good Y/C separation device which is definitely not the TBC-1000 as you're saying?

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, don't use the TBC-1000 for y/c separation.
I would use into only for s-video.
That's true of pretty much any TBC, to be honest.

Good gear, BTW. :cool:

And good to see you juhok. It's been a while. :thanks:

[juhok]

Hey LS. Indeed it's been a while since I roamed the videoforums. I'm glad you're doing better. :-)

Undead Saga; I haven't personally seen a really good device and I've tried a lot of different ones, but I've never really chased that workflow much. Because I rarely need it, I've typically used the one that my capture device provides. The one in BrightEye 75 AD converter is the best I have, ie. "better than nothing" (nothing = like Blackmagic Design cards etc).

[Undead Sega]

Yeah, don't use the TBC-1000 for y/c separation.
I would use into only for s-video.
That's true of pretty much any TBC, to be honest.

Well I still find it kinda strange that my TBC-1000 doesnt do Composite -> S-Video the last time I tried it out. But since you're saying this yourself, what would you recommend?

Undead Saga; I haven't personally seen a really good device and I've tried a lot of different ones, but I've never really chased that workflow much. Because I rarely need it, I've typically used the one that my capture device provides. The one in BrightEye 75 AD converter is the best I have, ie. "better than nothing" (nothing = like Blackmagic Design cards etc).

Woah...are you trying to say the Black Magic cards are somewhat inferior in performance???

By the way, just to inform you guys here, I also now have my HVR-4000 TV card installed, I dont know if this make a difference to any of you lot.

[juhok]

Oops, I don't mean Blackmagic cards are inferior to TBC-1000 in this regard, they are *better*. But they have basic dumb composite input. BM doesn't introduce extra softness etc like TBC-1000 but it's still not a very good. Not something you seem to be looking for here.

[Undead Sega]

I see, but with the TBC-1000 what causes this softness in the picture? I didnt think it was that evident when using S-Video.

Another piece of equipment that I probably want to hook up as well is my newly received LD-V8000 and was thinking of passing that through my TBC-1000 too.

[Undead Sega]

Hello juhok, how are you? any luck on those tests by any chance?

Also, I gathered the time to hook my LD-V8000 and (for some people strangely) TBC-1000 passing through via. composite input and S-video output, and it does work! In addition, I noticed a very minor improvement, this being where bry subtle rainbowing effects that appeared or were shimmering on the subtitles were somewhat eliminated.

Now this isnt a sciencetific test as it was very hard to tell if there was an overall (minor) improvement in the video which a doubt but seeing that result does make me wonder, however it did very much compare to having the player connected via. composite through the TBC-1000 input and output and having the 3D Comb Filter turned on on my HDTV. I suppose the best way is to capture them using my HVR-4000 TV/Capture card.

Anyways, I thought I would share that result, iw ill trying it again on a better laserdisc (Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition) that is coming very soon :)

[juhok]

Hmm, we never said comp->s-video doesn't work, just that the quality sucks. :)

Anyway, got queue of work but I managed to squeeze this together.

First I had to disassemble HS1000 upper drum and clean it and the rest of the tape path because it seems once again customer had sent me crap which muddied the deck. I hope there's not too many dropouts in the picture now.

Hardware used:
- Pana HS1000
- Modified TBC1000 (stock connectors replaced by professional BNC, internal distribution amplifier bypassed, replaced internal crappy wire with RG174A coax)
- Ensemble Designs Bright Eye 75 AD
- HQ cables

HS1000 -> BE75 (s-video):
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/BE75_HS1000_svideo.png

HS1000 -> TBC1000 -> BE75 (s-video all the way)
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/BE75_TBC1000_HS1000_svideo.png

HS1000 -> BE75 (composite, BE75 comb filter on)
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/BE75_HS1000_composite.png

HS1000 -> TBC1000 -> BE75 (composite to TBC1000, then s-video to BE75)
http://www.siluriformes.net/doom9/BE75_TBC1000_HS1000_composite-svideo.png

Ignore the chroma saturation difference between direct VCR->BE75 and VCR->TBC1000->BE75, that's another story.

I've ranked pictures from best to worst (IMHO). I would rank direct composite with BE75 comb filter to 2nd but it has some weird artifacts at times which I don't like. S-video from HS1000 rocks. It's even more clear with playback. I can upload samples if you want, about 1GB total.