BD-RB - mbtree, slices, and HD-DVD

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

Is it possible that the recently added "mbtree" and "slices" impacts the veracity of the "HDDVD_Compliant" setting in some way?

[jdobbs]

@jdobbs

Is it possible that the recently added "mbtree" and "slices" impacts the veracity of the "HDDVD_Compliant" setting in some way? Slices are disabled when HDDVD_Compliant is set -- so that definitely wouldn't. I don't think MBTREE would have any effect either, since its really just a more efficient type of rate control. But I should probably leave that call to someone like Dark Shikari.

Why? Are you seeing issues in the conversions?

[setarip_old]

@jdobbsWhy? Are you seeing issues in the conversions?Yes (But I didn't want to bother you with the somewhat convoluted details of my travail, since HD-DVD compatability is such a small part of what BD-RB is all about)

1) When converting to HD-DVD using multiAVCHD (As I've successfully done with more than 100 BD-RB BluRay conversions -IIRC, using BD-RB versions up to and including 30.02 successfully ), I now get an HD-DVD with slightly jerky motion and what I can only describe as "jumping droplets", in the correct colors for their locations, across the upper half of the screen.

2) If I cut off the first two seconds of the BD-RB created .M2TS file, multiAVCHD will no longer recognize it as being HD-DVD compliant, so that it is unable to do its "already HD-DVD compliant quick conversion" (20 minutes prox.). multiAVCHD will then, however, be able to convert the clipped file to a good HD-DVD "package" taking, however, approximately 10 times longer to do it.

3) If I exclude BD-RB completely from the equation and, instead use mutliAVCHD to both initially create the compressed BluRay movie-only "package", using its "HD-DVD compatible" mode, I am then able to apply the "already HD-DVD compliant quick conversion" - and get the proper results.

BTW - I've also advised Dean about this...

[jdobbs]

Try setting "USE_NAL_HRD=0" in the INI and see if that has an effect. There haven't been many changes to the command line since v0.30.02 -- but the X264 versions have been upgraded. Also -- check and make sure you don't have "WEIGHTP=1" in your INI.

[linyx]

I now get an HD-DVD with slightly jerky motion and what I can only describe as "jumping droplets", in the correct colors for their locations, across the upper half of the screen.

Is there any chance you would be willing to upload a very small sample that contains these errors to a file hosting website such as mediafire.com? I would be interested in seeing the artifacts myself; certainly sounds like macroblocks are being corrupted (written in a corrupt manner, that is), or your decoder sucks (What one are you using? Or is it a hardware decoder?)

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

1) No, there's no "WEIGHTP=1" in my .ini (Actually, I have an outie ;>})

2) I'll try setting "USE_NAL_HRD=0" with the next one and let you know of the results

[deank]

BTW - I've also advised Dean about this...

I emailed you back, but it seems there is a problem between our mail servers.

Another request: can you post the information from media info about the file, which is not recognized as hd-dvd compliant Is it possible, that the bitrate is far above 8000-9000kbps?

I updated multiAVCHD to build 719 few days ago and changed x264 to 1369 (hrd/interlaced patch as always), also added "--weightp 0" to all x264 lines.

Dean

(edit: I responded to your test email, but it failed too...)

[setarip_old]

@deankIs it possible, that the bitrate is far above 8000-9000kbps?No. Per multiAVCHD, the bitrate of each of the files was less than 5,000kbps.

I'm fairly certain that the problem lies somewhere deep in the bowels of BD_RB (Changes in x264, ffdshow, etc.) because, as I said before:

If I exclude BD-RB completely from the equation and, instead use multiAVCHD to initially create the compressed BluRay movie-only "package", using its "HD-DVD compatible" mode, I am then able to apply the "already HD-DVD compliant quick conversion" - and get the proper results.

(Did you respond to BOTH addresses?)

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

Hi!

As you suggested, I tried setting "USE_NAL_HRD=0", but the results were identical.

I also tried "NO_MBTREE=1", to no avail.

When I have a little more free time, I'll explore using older versions of "ffdshow" and "x264".

If you or anyone else have any other ideas, or can also do some testing to track this down, I'm all ears ;>}

[shon3i]

What is exactly your commandline? btw from you post look to me you have problem with weightp, try with --weightp 0 as deank suggest

[setarip_old]

@shon3i

Hi!

Since I'm using multiAVCHD Build 719, I am using "weightp 0"...

[jdobbs]

BD-RB defaults to --weightp 0 also (since v0.31.04)

[setarip_old]

OK, so that now eliminates "NAL_HRD", "MBTREE", and "WEIGHTP" as possible culprits...

[deank]

@setarip: I couldn't reply via email:


I tested all profiles.. the problem exists only with "2 pass HQ"... Other 2 pass modes worked fine... It happened that the problem was caused by --subme 5 parameter in the second pass (after --subme 2 in the 1st pass) (really strange). It is fixed now, so you can update to build 720 (use multiUPDATE to get the latest fix).

Dean

[setarip_old]

@deank

Thanks - that eliminates one type of HD-DVD problem.

I'll continue to work on the primary BD-RB to mutliAVCHD "hand-off" problem regarding HD-DVD.

(I wonder what's causing the email problem?)

[jdobbs]

@deank

Thanks - that eliminates one type of HD-DVD problem.

I'll continue to work on the primary BD-RB to mutliAVCHD "hand-off" problem regarding HD-DVD.

(I wonder what's causing the email problem?)

Try using the version from http://www.x264.nl rather than the one with the nal-hrd patch installed and see if it makes a difference (you'll have to disable NAL-HRD in the INI or it will fail). I'd do it, but I have no way of testing it.

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

32bit or 64bit?

[jdobbs]

@jdobbs

32bit or 64bit? 32 bit.

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

Thank you ;>}

[setarip_old]

@jdobbsTry using the version from http://www.x264.nl rather than the one with the nal-hrd patch installed and see if it makes a difference (you'll have to disable NAL-HRD in the INI or it will fail).Nope that change did not resolve the issue. Same result.

I'm going to work my way back through the earlier versions of "x264.exe".

Also, what are the functions of "SetACL_x64.exe" and "SetACL_x86.exe"? - both of which I believe were first added with v.31.02. Perhaps I should see if excluding them solves my dilemma...

[jdobbs]

@jdobbsNope that change did not resolve the issue. Same result.

I'm going to work my way back through the earlier versions of "x264.exe".

Also, what are the functions of "SetACL_x64.exe" and "SetACL_x86.exe"? - both of which I believe were first added with v.31.02. Perhaps I should see if excluding them solves my dilemma... They're for modifying the registry access controls when configuring FFDSHOW the first time you run BD-RB -- no connection.

[setarip_old]

As the result of systematically replacing the x264.exe of BD-RB v.31.05 with prior versions, I've determined that the problem appears to lie with the differing versions of x264.exe used.

The versions included with BD-RB versions 31.02 through 31.05 ultimately yield problematic HD-DVDs (after brief processing by multiAVCHD) when used in v.31.05.

The most recent version of x264.exe that yields proper HD-DVDs (after brief processing by multiAVCHD) when used in v.31.05, is the one that was included with versions 30.01 through 30.04. Its size is (I could find no version number):

1,097KB, 1.07 MB (1,122,834 bytes).

Using this version and incorporating the following two lines in the .INI file also yielded an excellent, non-problematic BluRay "package":

NO_MBTREE=1
USE_NAL_HRD=0

(In other words, while resolving my HD-DVD anomaly, using the older x264.exe and adding the above lines to the .INI did nothing to negatively impact BD-RB's performance and output.)

[jdobbs]

That should be version r1171. You can see the version number by typing:

c:\x264.exe --version

The problem is that if you use the old version you'll not enjoy all the improvements (like MBTREE and those yet to come) in newer versions. I'll see if I can figure out a way to use that version only when doing HD-DVD conversions (that flag is set).

[setarip_old]

@jdobbsI'll see if I can figure out a way to use that version only when doing HD-DVD conversions (that flag is set).If it proves to be possible, that would be generous of you and greatly appreciated!

However, if it proves to be less-than-easy to accomplish I (and I'm sure those few others in the same boat) can, when needed, just swapin version r1171.

*********************************************************************************************************

BTW - As a result of my going through this exercise, I believe I've determined that there's apparently no way to have BD-RB process a short virginal clip (5 to 15 minutes) as HDDVD compliant. It seems that when you include "FORCE_ENCODE=1" and/or set the "Default size" to a small size (e.g. 200-500MB), the resultant file is not recognized as HDDVD compliant by multiAVCHD (On the other hand, a clip taken from an already HDDVD compliant BD-RB-converted BluRay is acknowledged as being HDDVD compliant and properly processed by multiAVCHD).

If I'm mistaken (and this would certainly not be the first time), please advise...

[deank]

Just a quick note: multiAVCHD's latest package uses x264 build 1369 (hrd/interlaced patch). All multiAVCHD builds use patched x264 and never let tsMuxeR to do the nal/aud packets distribution/creation.

[setarip_old]

@deank

I just want to confirm:

multiAVCHD Build 370 properly processes "good" HDDVD-compliant files generated by BD-RB...

[deank]

Build 720? (not 370 I hope :) or you meant x264's 1370)

And it processes a job well done by BD-RB...

[setarip_old]

Wow, the smoke in this room must have been heavier than I realized ;>}

Yes, of course, Build 720!

Any comment regarding chapters and timesearch?