Adobe Encore FORCES transcode

[juantohu]

Hello mates,

After encoding with CCE+AviSynth I'm using DGPulldown to flag up the MPEG from 23.976 or 25 to 29.97, but when importing to Adobe Encore a transcode is forced... is someone familiar with this problem?
Does this has something to do with the way DGPulldown applies pulldown flags? If so, should I apply pulldown before encoding with CCE? maybe an AviSynth script or something... or which program is similar to DGPulldown (altering MPEG2 RFF/TFF flags + no need to process audio)?

I'm pretty sure my files are 100% DVD compliant (I can author with DVD-lab and everything is fine)
I thought that maybe it had something to do with Open/Closed GOPs, but I did a test and it doesn't make a difference, except for a warning in DVD-lab, but the DVD is still playable.

Thanks.

[um3k]

What resolution are you encoding at?

[juantohu]

I'm pretty sure my files are 100% DVD compliant


Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 21mn 14s
Overall bit rate : 2 925 Kbps
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2 802 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Standard : NTSC
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.338
Stream size : 426 MiB (96%)

[poisondeathray]

If dvdlab works, why don't you use dvdlab?

[juantohu]

Overall quality, Photoshop integration, export as DVD/Blu-ray/Flash, etc...

Besides, I don't know if it's a DVD-lab issue, but my subtitles ALWAYS show earlier, no matter which option I choose (and yes, I'm sure that they are correctly in sync with the video before authoring) ALSO, when I import subs they don't preserve italics, very annoying.

Anyway, what's an alternative method or software to DGPulldown?
Should I apply pulldown before encoding (with AVS script) or after encoding (DGPulldown or similar)?

...is scan order/frame rate the problem in the first place? what else could cause this forced transcode in Encore?

---

EDIT:
Frame rate IS the problem. I encoded again using 29.97 as output (source was 23.976) and Encore finally accepted it as DVD compliant! (no forced transcoding)
So, Encore doesn't like pulldown flags...
I've always encoded using original frame rate and then flagged up with DGPulldown, so this is quite new to me.

[mpucoder]

After applying pulldown the resultant m2v should have the new frame rate. The values in your second post don't show that. There are 3 options for handling m2v files that are not 25fps or 29.97fps, transcode, perform pulldown, or reject the file.
Apparently DVD-Lab can add pulldown, and Encore transcodes.

Are you sure that DGPulldown is leaving the framerate at 23.976? If so that should be reported to neuron2, but first make sure you are using the latest version.

A workaround, if DGPulldown is leaving the frame rate at 23.976, would be to use ReStream or DVDPatcher after DGPulldown to change the framerate in the file header.

[juantohu]

I've encoded using original frame rate (23.976) and then tried DGPulldon, pulldown.exe, CCE pulldown, DVD-lab's pulldown... to flag up to 29.97... and Encore always transcodes my video.
ONLY if I choose 29.97 as output frame rate in CCE then Encore decides not to transcode. It's like Encore saying "no, pulldown flags aren't allowed, only true 29.97".

So, what the hell?

Are you sure that DGPulldown is leaving the framerate at 23.976? If so that should be reported to neuron2, and a workaround would be to use ReStream or DVDPatcher to change the framerate in the file header.
DGPulldown always outputs a file with specs:

Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown

is that what you're talking about?

I will try using DVDPatcher to change the header and then report back.

Thanks mate ;)

---

EDIT:
DVD-lab can add pulldown, but in my case it isn't required because it accepts my CCE>DGPulldown file as DVD compliant, when Encore wants to force a transcode.
Yes, I'm using DGPulldown latest version.

EDIT 2:
OK, I used DVDPatcher to change the header (both first header only and entire file) and the frame rate is still reported as 23.976 fps with 2:3 Pulldown, thus, Encore wants to transcode it.

EDIT 3:
When applying pulldown with pulldown.exe the output is reported as 29.97 fps but Encore STILL wants to transcode it! Seriously, what am I doing wrong? I'm going mad...

[bigotti5]

Take a look at the GOP length.
If your source file has GOP length ≥ 15 frames using DGPulldown will result in at least 19 frames GOP length.
GOP length must not exceed 18 frames for NTSC DVD.

[juantohu]

How do I see the GOP length?

[bigotti5]

e.g
Bitrate Viewer (http://www.videohelp.com/download/Bv_v15054.exe)
or
MPEG Validator (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/MPEG_Validator)

[juantohu]

thanks ;) ..now I will take a look at the GOP length.

[juantohu]

EDIT:
Nevermind my previous post... I was using another program (Bitrate Viewer instead of BitRate Viewer)

So, in BRV, I click on GOPs and the "Gop no." column has 2178 rows... the "Pic n." column never goes above 15... is that the max GOP length?

[bigotti5]

So, in BRV, I click on GOPs and the "Gop no." column has 2178 rows... the "Pic n." column never goes above 15... is that the max GOP length?
Yes...but 15 is already too high
A 15 frame GOP results in 19 frame GOP after pulldown.

[juantohu]

I opened my M2V file (MPEG2 at 23.976 fps with 2:3 Pulldown), not the source AVI.

What did you mean? that 15 frames is already too high for the source or for the resultant M2V?

..if the later, then I guess I'll have to encode again. Which settings do I have to change in CCE-SP2 in order to reduce GOP length? or is it something that I have to put in my AVS script?

EDIT:
AGAIN... nevermind that previous post haha!
I just realized the obvious regarding AVIs and GOP length... anyway, that previous question didn't have any sense.

So, then I guess I'll have to encode again. Which settings do I have to change in CCE-SP2 in order to reduce GOP length? or is it something that I have to put in my AVS script?

[poisondeathray]

opening .m2v in gspot will also tell you that information about GOP length, M/N and if it's DVD compliant

I just tested 2 clips, 1 from HCenc and 1 from CCE and both are accepted by Encore CS4 with NTSC DVD . They both read "don't transcode" in the project window

In CCE, there is a checkbox for DVD, and that should make the settings compliant. I let CCE do the pulldown, and I let HCEnc do it as well

The other things to remember are to disable the line offset and TFF in the advanced settings, and check progressive in the picture quality, and I usually diable low pass filter as well

These are all listed in the manual

[bigotti5]

I opened my M2V file (MPEG2 at 23.976 fps with 2:3 Pulldown), not the source AVI.
You see encoded frames only...so 15 frames is already too high for the resultant M2V

You shuld do it as poisondeathray suggested, check "for DVD" in Video setting...CCE will do it for you.
To reduce GOP length manually modify N/M value in "Advanced settings" from 5 to 4 (results in GOP length of max 12 frames).

[juantohu]

opening .m2v in gspot will also tell you that information about GOP length, M/N and if it's DVD compliant
So that's what "15 max" meant... heck, I was looking for something that said exactly "GOP length" or something like that. Thanks for that tip :D

The other things to remember are to disable the line offset and TFF in the advanced settings, and check progressive in the picture quality, and I usually diable low pass filter as well
I've all settings just like that, except for TFF... I've "Output top field first stream" enabled*, would you care to explain me what's the difference? When enable and when disable?

*the CCE 2.70 guide says "Keep Output top field first stream checked unless you have a bottom field first stream (rare and normally only interlaced content).", that's why I have it enabled.

I will try checking "for DVD" and/or changing N/M from 5 to 4 and then post the results.

---

EDIT:
Man... that "Don't Transcode" message sure makes me feel happy :D
You were right, checking "for DVD" did the trick... that checkbox is equivalent to checking "Pulldown", "Inv 3:2 Pulldown" and changing N/M value to 4.
So, now my question is: if I ONLY change N/M value from 5 to 4 in CCE, and then apply pulldown with DGPulldown... would that be different than applying pulldown directly in CCE? Does DGPulldown apply pulldown in an "unique" way or something like that?

To reduce GOP length manually modify N/M value in "Advanced settings" from 5 to 4 (results in GOP length of max 12 frames).
That bit of info is like... perfect. That's the ONLY reason my file was being transcoded. But then why the hell does the CCE 2.70 guide says "Change the N/M parameter to 4 for PAL content and leave it it at 5 for NTSC content." when that's what made my files non DVD compliant (according to Encore)?

[poisondeathray]

So that's what "15 max" meant... heck, I was looking for something that said exactly "GOP length" or something like that. Thanks for that tip :D


In gspot, there is a tiny I-I pink icon, and that denotes I-frame to I-frame , or GOP. I know it's hard to read :)


I've all settings just like that, except for TFF... I've "Output top field first stream" enabled*, would you care to explain me what's the difference? When enable and when disable?

*the CCE 2.70 guide says "Keep Output top field first stream checked unless you have a bottom field first stream (rare and normally only interlaced content).", that's why I have it enabled.


OK. Anyway. I don't think it matters when you have progressive checkmarked., but it might have to so with the pulldown cadence, but I doubt it too.


So, now my question is: if I ONLY change N/M value from 5 to 4 in CCE, and then apply pulldown with DGPulldown... would that be different than applying pulldown directly in CCE? Does DGPulldown apply pulldown in an "unique" way or something like that?


I'm not sure. I actually haven't used DGPulldown for a few years


But then why the hell does the CCE 2.70 guide says "Change the N/M parameter to 4 for PAL content and leave it it at 5 for NTSC content." when that's what made my files non DVD compliant (according to Encore)?

I'm not sure about the specifics or mechanic. I just checkmark "DVD" and everything is usually fixed in both CCE and HCenc.

[juantohu]

Well, I guess that's it... "[SOLVED]" should be added to the title of this thread.

Thanks A LOT to all of you guys! I just can't stop smiling :D

A firm handshake.

[poisondeathray]

Q: I wonder why would dvdlab pro would accept those initial streams then? And what was the warning message it gave?

[juantohu]

Q: I wonder why would dvdlab pro would accept those initial streams then? And what was the warning message it gave?

Well, the only warning message that DVD-lab has always reported to me says that open GOPs were detected and that chapter points may not start accurately... but the authored DVD is playable in PS2, X360, standalone player, etc.

Maybe Encore is just being a bitch. Honestly, if Adobe Encore is supposedly targeted at professional video producers it should at least throw a warning message saying "GOP length is too high" or similar instead of just removing the "Don't Transcode" option...

[bigotti5]

It is definitly explained in users guide

From CCE SP 2.70 User´s Guide (http://www.cinemacraft.com/file/sp/pdf/2.70/en/cctsp.pdf)
page 38
2.15 Pulldown setting
When creating a NTSC video from a film, it is necessary to convert
frame rate from 24 fps to 30fps (60 fields/sec). 3:2 pulldown is a
common method for this convertion. And the 3:2 pulldowned source
will be encoded efficiently and achieve better result applying Inverse
3:2 pulldown.
-When you apply 3:2 pulldown, do not set 00:00:00:00 as a timecode
for the first frame.
-When you apply 3:2 pulldown, Output top field first stream
should be selected. If the source is bottom field first, you should
also confirm that Offset line is 1 or odd number.
-When you output DVD video stream with this option, GOP
sequence should be M=3, N/M=4. To specify GOP sequence,
click Advanced button in the lower right of the encoder setting
window. About Advanced video setting window, see page 43.
...........
page 45
3.1.2 GOP sequence
You can change the GOP sequence modifying M and N/M. M affects
the number of B picture, and N/M does the number of P picture. You
can see the GOP sequence you set above the setting boxes for M and
N/M. The initial setting is M=3, N/M=5.
- Generally, M=3, N/M=5 is used for NTSC DVD, M=3, N/M=4
for PAL DVD.
- When you create a stream for DVD with applying inverse 3:2
pulldown, M=3, N/M=4 should be set.

[juantohu]

While reading your post it all came back to me... I just remembered that I had already read those "rules" in Cinema Craft Encoder SP2 User’s Guide Version 1.10. Specifically the "When you apply 3:2 pulldown, do not set 00:00:00:00 as a timecode for the first frame." bit. I always leave it at 01:00:00:00, anyway.

Thanks for gathering that info, mate.

[Emulgator]

DLP does not check streams thoroughly, only reads headers and relies on this information.
That makes DLP fast, but not foolproof.

With DLP as compressionist I am anyways responsible to know what I'm doing.
DLP tends just to warn about OpenGOPs, (which is a bit unnecessary and can be turned off) and muxes happily on.

For Film on DVD (23.976p soft pulldowned to NTSC 29.97i) a GOP size of max 14, better 12 is recommended.