Hardware player with HDMI

[Ghitulescu]

I am looking for a good player (w/ or w/o HDD) that can output both SD and HD using HDMI and has a broader sprectrum of supported codecs and containers.

I've checked last week a Trekstor Antarius (LAN+USB, no HDD) as it were a promising device, but ... According to the specifications it could do 1080p - however it was just another marketing lie, as it outputs 1080p only by scaling SD and 720p HD and not by supporting true FullHD. It has support for flac and ogg, which no other player known to me had.

Any ideas?
Recording parts are useless for me and raise unnecessary the price.

[patul]

WD TV HD (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/index.asp?cat=30) ??

[Ghitulescu]

Movie -- AVI (Xvid, AVC, MPEG1/2/4), MPG/MPEG, MKV (h.264, x.264, AVC, MPEG1/2/4, VC-1), TS/TP/M2T (MPEG1/2/4, AVC, VC-1) MP4/MOV (MPEG4, h.264), M2TS, WMV9
MPEG2 MP@HL up to 1920x1080p24, 1920x1080i30, or 1280x720p60 resolution. MPEG4.2 ASP@L5 up to 1280x720p30 resolution and no support for global motion compensation. WMV9/VC-1 MP@HL up to 1280x720p60 or 1920x1080p24 resolution. VC-1 AP@L3 up to 1920x1080i30, 1920x1080p24, or 1280x720p60 resolution. H.264 BP@L3 up to 720x480p30 or 720x576p25 resolution. H.264 MP@4.1 and HP@4.1 up to 1920x1080p24, 1920x1080i30, or 1280x720p60 resolution.
Picture -- JPEG, GIF, TIFF, BMP, PNG
Compressed RGB JPEG formats only and progressive JPEG up to 2048x2048. Single layer TIFF files only. Uncompressed BMP only.
Audio -- MP3, WAV/PCM/LPCM, WMA, AAC, FLAC, MKA, AIF/AIFF, OGG, Dolby Digital, DTS
An audio receiver is required for multi-channel surround sound digital output. For specific details, please refer to the user manual.
Playlists -- PLS, M3U, WPL
Subtitle -- SRT, ASS, SSA, SUB, SMI
It doesn't play 1920x1080p25 camcorder files nor the HDTV 1920x1080i50 I assume - the infos are from the US site. The manual simply lists the codecs and the containers - so did also the Trekstor and the EMTEC - but the devil's in the details.

[nurbs]

If you post a short sample I can try it on the WD TV.

[kieranrk]

Some (all?) 1080p25 camcorder files are in fact 1080i25 (50 fields) and thus would fall under 1920x1080i30. Standard european 1080i HDTV would fall under the above too.

[Ghitulescu]

If you post a short sample I can try it on the WD TV.
I see what I can do, my recordings are several GB large. Maybe in the WE as my video PC does not have inet connection.
The WD TV should be the PAL (EMEA) version.

Some (all?) 1080p25 camcorder files are in fact 1080i25 (50 fields) and thus would fall under 1920x1080i30. Standard european 1080i HDTV would fall under the above too.
i25 means 25 fields per second (I'm not sure now if there's such an animal since the fields should be two per frame), if one refers to the PAL then it's i50. While there are camcorders that do i50 there are also some that do p25 (real progressive). Both i50 and p25 are above the specs, as I read them from the US site.

[nurbs]

DGSplit a minute or so. I live in PAL land, but I don't think there are different version.

[pandy]

at least mine WD HD play everything 25 and 50 fps - to be honest i've not tried only 720i50 ie 100 fields per sec.
I live on PAL land to - the issue with WD HD is that in auto mode NTSC derivative are preferred (ie 30fps instead of 25fps - but You can choose manually video output mode)

[Ghitulescu]

Supposingly one has the standard frame sizes (eg 720x576 bzw. 1920x1080), does the box automatically send their native resolutions through HDMI? I mean 720x576 as 720x576 and not upscaled to 1920x1080 (I don't want to click through the menus to set the output resolution) ... The reason being that my TV has a very good scaler ...

[kieranrk]

i25 means 25 fields per second (I'm not sure now if there's such an animal since the fields should be two per frame), if one refers to the PAL then it's i50. While there are camcorders that do i50 there are also some that do p25 (real progressive). Both i50 and p25 are above the specs, as I read them from the US site.

1080i25 in the way you're describing doesn't exist. 1080i50 === 1080i25.

[nurbs]

Supposingly one has the standard frame sizes (eg 720x576 bzw. 1920x1080), does the box automatically send their native resolutions through HDMI?
No, don't think so.

[Ghitulescu]

1080i25 in the way you're describing doesn't exist. 1080i50 === 1080i25.

I am sorry that I am using the EBU convention, but I'm from Europe.

[RunningSkittle]

Popcornhour or a (3rd party version of it ... there are many, i have a "iobox 100HD")
http://www.popcornhour.com/

Also has frequent firmware updates to support new features and a wonderful support community!

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm currently using an Xtreamer (http://www.xtreamer.net/xtreamer/features.aspx)...

[Episodio1]

I bought an Xtreamer after SeeMoreDigital's posts a few months ago.

100eur with no HDD.

You can watch through Wifi, USB and internal HDD SATA.

I watch through Wifi (up to 20 Mbps-video-bitrate files). If you want to playback original BluRays from your PC Xtreamer supports 802.11n (50-60 Mbps)

You can watch youtube videos as well from your xtreamer/wifi.

[Ghitulescu]

Thank you all for your answers,

One of my problems is the following and since I have already a piece of hardware (Humax iCord HD) that creats it and I hate it, I don't wanna have another one with the same problem.

Now the problem: my Humax automatically scales up the SD image, while it's not really so bad (my TV is much better in upscaling) it disables all the 4:3 -> 16:9 modi my TV has, that is I am forced to watch a distorted image if my video is 43FS (some broadcasters use the dreadfull 43LB with burnt-in subtitles stupidly placed on the mattes - a technical nonsense but it helps saving bandwidth on the transponder). This is due to the fact that the Humax sends the image already as 16:9 so the Pio drops the 4:3->16:9 scaling algorithms.

So, summa summorum, is any gear out there that automatically sends the image as in the original (ie SD->SD and HD->HD, better said 720->720 and 1080->1080), ie without any click-click-Menu-Enter-Exit?
Is any gear out there that reads natively HD (up to at least 1080i 50 fields/s and 1080p 25 frames/s)? I think there are at least 2: WD TV HD and Xstreamer, probably Popcorn (there are several "flavours" of popcorn), according to your posts

[0028606]

Yes the Popcorn hour a-110 or c-200 will do that, if you go to settings and set TV OUT to auto (only need to do it once), it will simply send whatever video image you are playing be it HD or SD in its original Resolution.
So your TV can do all the scaling after that.

[Episodio1]

Yes, Xtreamer also has got that option.

You can see all of its options in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAsI8h7i9Sg

[pandy]

I am sorry that I am using the EBU convention, but I'm from Europe.
I'm from Europe to and 1080i25 mean 1080 lines on screen, interlace, 25 times per second, 1080i50 mean 1080 lines on screen, interlace, 50 times per second... and to be honest this the first time to me that i read about EBU and improper naming convention - are You sure?

[Ghitulescu]

I'm from Europe to and 1080i25 mean 1080 lines on screen, interlace, 25 times per second, 1080i50 mean 1080 lines on screen, interlace, 50 times per second... and to be honest this the first time to me that i read about EBU and improper naming convention - are You sure?

I was sure, I've checked again EBU and indeed it seems that they changed that info again.
I still have paper documents from EBU from 2003-2004 dealing with 576i50 and 1080i50 (which were fields per second) and 720p25 (which were frames per second), now (12.2009) they changed to 1080i25 to match the SMPTE 274 and similar.
My mistake. I'll use the Frame terminology from now on.

-=-
I just discovered that around mid 2007 EBU started mentioning in their tech leaflets that they will use only frames/s as a standard notation.

[pandy]

Strange - seems that EBU is not very reliable source at least on naming convention...

[Ghitulescu]

Strange - seems that EBU is not very reliable source at least on naming convention...

Having only Philips as an EU manufacturer, EBU had to align itself to the naming conventions (improperly??) used by the rest of the world, not to create too much confusion.

[patul]

@Ghitulescu: So, which player you are now considering to buy?

[Ghitulescu]

Popcorn A-100 (http://www.velorider.co.uk/wp02/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/rear.jpg) is nice and probably fits the space above my half-width AG5700 but has problems with streaming VOBs - I don't think I'll have this one
Popcorn A-110 (http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Popcorn_Hour_A-110_A-100_1.jpg) has a similar design, I'll have to dig a bit for further details.
Popcorn C-200 (http://www.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/popcornhour_c200.jpg) looks really nice, however it's LCD-based (looks cheap* in a rack where all the rest are VFD-based) and it's even narrower than my Humax
There are also some B-110 and S-210 models, unfortunatelly Popcorn does not list any user manual (ok, the specs are there) on their site, also they are available in DE only in eBay or very few shops (not in the major ones).
All Popcorns do feature a soft-power and suck some 7W in StandBy (double than my whole rack of 4 gears plus the TV). The power is external (which I really hate because I hate that stecker-trafo combi) which make them unsuitable for being placed in a rack. If one has only a TV and the Popcorn that is probably ok.

---

XStreamer can be vertically placed and thus saves some space, the manual is of little help - thank you for confirming some of its capabilities. It's not available in shops in DE yet, maybe on eBay.
It also features the same general design as the popcorns (softpower, the bulky power source unit, stdby consumption).

----

The other devices I've seen (EMTECs, Trekstors, LaCie, various nonames) are all of the same design (external power, standalone design - if they are the multimedia all-in-one central, why the need for other gear, logic, heh?) but none of them plays what I need.

----

In addition someone just told me that Logitech just launched an Inet-radio that also has the possibility of streaming your own files. Let's see this one ...

----

The answer is therefore none, but C-200 and XStreamer are the preferred choices when I'll find them in regular shops (in DE you can send the ware back if you don't like it but with online shops there are sometimes problems).

I still have an additional answer: my old fanless PC which is half-width 1HE and can accomodate a X-card for H.264 hardware-based playing or even a Grass Valley one. In the end, those players are just MIPS based PCs running various flavours of Unix-based firmwares ....
======
* looks cheap in comparison, not by itself.

[pandy]

What with PS3?

[Ghitulescu]

PS3 needs 200W and it's mainly a game console that is programed to play BDs (software emulation, almost like PowerDVD on a PC). And I already have a BD player ... and I don't need a game console ...

What I do now is to work the .TS files from my Humax to BD-5/BD-9 that I see in my Pio. I was thinking of having a dedicated media player as some dokus have more than 8GB (2 languages and subtitles) and I don't want to reencode them.

[pandy]

PS3 can be not only game console - old one (pre slim) can run linux, also power consumption is less than 200W, there wifi and gig eth on board + hdmi, and all players even hardware ones are software based (custom DSP and custom firmware)

[Ghitulescu]

I studied the PS3 pre-slim versions some time ago (SACD and non-SACD ones), but I said no, it was not worth the money. It's not worth the money also now. Unless you use the gaming part, which I don't.

You see, the world is divided in those that ride a bicycle and those that repair one. I don't want to "repair" one, I just want to ride. I'm finished with these "hobbies", I want working solutions out-of-the-box.

Also I'm not a fan of all-in-one products: they cost more than a normal one, including features I probably never use, they're more complex and thus prone to errors, you can use only one function at a time, their quality never reach each of the gear they replace, and, more important, if one function goes defect the whole gear is f**-up. This goes with every all-in-one device I met in my life (computer, printers, cell-phones, music combis, tv-vcr, cars, etc. etc.).

PS: while the PS3 does not suck 200W it's also not very far away (I think 200W it's on the label but the media is around 150W as reported by a German magazine).

[pandy]

i understand Your point of view - only mentioned about PS3 - with proper software this can be machine of dreams (yes power consumption and quite noisy BD drive especially on new slim can be a negative side)

btw i enjoy to ride and repair my bike ;)

[RunningSkittle]

Ghitulescu: There are MANY third party "popcornhour" manufacturers!!! I have an iobox-100hd (based on the B110), but there are many other choices (which you dont have to get on ebay ;) )

[babba]

@ Ghitulescu: you said:

"... The reason being that my TV has a very good scaler ... "

could you tell me the model of your tv and, as far as you know, if it exist a tv without scaler, or if it's possible to bypass the internal scaler and utilize an external one, like Popcorn or Xtreamer ?

Thanks

[Ghitulescu]

@ Ghitulescu: you said:

"... The reason being that my TV has a very good scaler ... "

could you tell me the model of your tv and, as far as you know, if it exist a tv without scaler, or if it's possible to bypass the internal scaler and utilize an external one, like Popcorn or Xtreamer ?

Thanks

Pio 5090.

A HD TV cannot exist without a scaler. A display panel yes.
Bypassing the scaler is simply as ABC. Just feed the TV with it's natural resolution (1080 or 720; panels having 768 lines always scale).

[pandy]

Pio 5090.

A HD TV cannot exist without a scaler. A display panel yes.
Bypassing the scaler is simply as ABC. Just feed the TV with it's natural resolution (1080 or 720; panels having 768 lines always scale).

Not quite true - You can feed TV with native resolution od display panel and TV can use scaler... usual policy of TV behavior is:

Crop so called overscan then resize cropped to native resolution.

Many TV ignore HDMI source type and dont even allow for customer to choose proper mode... - so this all is not so simple as should be...

Display pannel maybe not need scaler, usually each display panel controller has scaler on die - quality of scaler is vary and highly dependent from price of IC (not always expensive mean best quality - there is no such thing like best scaler/resizer).

[Ghitulescu]

We are talking slightly different things here.

Display is the industry term for a panel that displays (:p) the signal. It's not the screen part of a TV. Since it accepts only a fixed resolution, then it's the responsability of the feeder to provide the right signal.

Overscan exists theoretically only for analog signals, even if they are HD and feed by YUV. All flatscreen TVs that are FullHD simply display the signal unadulterated (I'm not talking here about the TVs you buy in groceries). Plasmas have here a problem, as they have to "rotate" the image, so you may have 2 modi here (full and pixel-per-pixel; or whatever). Overscan over HDMI have only the HDready TVs (those with 768 pixels or the like, as cutting parts from the image helps them in up/downscaling).

Finally, talking about HDMI and resolutions, all TVs that are not given at tombolas do provide the feeder 2 very important info (the list of supported resolutions and the preferred resolution). Other important info are the onboard audio decoders.

So any TV (not sold at gas stations as change) should behave like this. That pandy said that many TVs do not allow the user to change the modus, well, lot of people bought them thinking of their own money (look, pa, it's cheaper than your shoes) in the short term, because now they need to buy additional gear to make their image/use acceptable.

-=-=-
But since a tango is always danced in pairs, try not to blame the black cat only, a cheap videoplayer may provide the TV only 1080i (forced scaling) because this is cheaper to implement such a scheme.

[pandy]

We are talking slightly different things here

...



Ok, we can talk about semantics - in real life You can have only two world - customer (TV market) and professional (monitors - not in computer sense but rather as a neutral displays to monitor quality of broadcast and production)

Displays itself ie LCD or plasma panel usually use some RGB digital interface and it is usually visible for acquisition/processing part as a kind of flat memory area - and that's it.
In those term display expect some fixed data structure at the input.

But in consumer and professional world display panels with raw RGB are rather unusual - usual practice is use the standard interfaces like DVI/HDMI/DP etc - this is really important - both worlds trying to use standardized interfaces.
So every display is a preceded by processing part which separate input from panel.

The way of dealing with incoming signal vary from implementation to implementation and it is highly dependent form manufacturer point of view (many TV for example ignore on HDMI information in AVI InfoFrame even if the EIA/CEA-861B specify quite clear this area - S0, S1 Scan Information i.e. overscan and underscan type of the source).

Some TV manufacturers "protects" customers by limiting available options and yes usually more expensive products targeted to the more "advanced" user ie users that willing spend more money for product for slightly better quality support those advanced features like manual overscan/underscan state - but is is also highly dependent form current market trends and many not very easy to describe things.

[babba]

@ Ghitulescu and Pandy

Examples of good "displays" and Tv's not "sold at gas stations" nor "protecting" customers ?

[Ghitulescu]

@ Ghitulescu and Pandy

Examples of good "displays" and Tv's not "sold at gas stations" nor "protecting" customers ?

It depends on your location on Planet Earth.
I would strongly recommend Pioneer, including its LCDs, but I haven't seen them in a while (Pio is out for about 1 year from the plasma business), then Sony (pick the highest model number you can afford, as Sony does the whole range, from extra cheap to extremely expensive), Panasonic plasmas (they draw at least 100W more than any equivalent, yet they claim to be eco and environmental-friendly). Philips (see the comments on Sony, except Philips doesn't manufacture its own screens). I think some Sharp models are ok (Sharp provides the screens for a lot of other manufacturers), also some hand-picked LGs and Samsungs. These were my impressions based on the TV sets that I saw in Germany.

However, nobody can tell you what to buy, it's entirely your own decision, because you'll have to live therewith. I was once with my brother-in-low and his wife to pick up a TV. He refused the Panasonic plasma (too dark, but that's plasma) and picked-up a Toshiba LCD. The Sony LCD nearby, which had by far the best image in the LCD technology (natural colours), was refused by her on the colours ground (now they run that Toshiba with colour and contrast towards the maximum - like those Indian movies).

--------

Oh, yes, forgot, there are also grounds to select a TV set based also on how well it displays a SDTV image - now we are talking money here, as a good scaler costs a lot.

[pandy]

@ Ghitulescu and Pandy

Examples of good "displays" and Tv's not "sold at gas stations" nor "protecting" customers ?


From my experience - this vary - even one year such "advance" feature can be available on top models then on next year on almost all offered - check TV by your self - sometimes it is "hidden" in Input configuration (AFAIR on some Samsung and LG i saw this on Input configuration that user can choose HDMI mode ie switch between TV (overscan ie crop+resize and color range 16-235) and PC ("pixel by pxel" mode like computer monitor + range from 0 to 255))