Grain

[kevinsert]

i know for years grain is detail...but in some private forum few NEWBIE encoder says grain isnt detail and it has to be removed !
is it true ?

[Guest]

It doesn't encode image information per se but it does give a texture that is appropriate when trying to retain the "film look" or when trying to retain a director's aesthetic intent.

[kevinsert]

so if i remove the grain from this it looks better and more detailed?
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/adzez/The%20Good%20the%20Bad/e60d6a31.png

[Guest]

"looks better" is subjective. Only you can answer that.

"more detailed" here is ambiguous. I will just say that removing grain does not increase the information content of the video.

Often the illusion of greater detail is created by *adding* grain. Removing it can result in a plastic look.

If excessive grain is caused by noise in the processing chain, rather than being the creator's intent, or the natural look of film that one desires to retain, then removing (some of) it may improve the overall impression.

[Didée]

i know for years grain is detail...but in some private forum few NEWBIE encoder says grain isnt detail and it has to be removed !
is it true ?
The newbie is both right and wrong, and you seem to have lived behind the moon for years.

Grain is a certain kind of noise, caused by the silver particels in film celluloid. (Simplified.)

So no, grain is not detail. Technically, it is just random variation in the image signal.
- However, to the eye it is "something", since it adds energy to the image signal.

In any case, by removing grain you'll not get more detail. You are removing something from the source. After you've taken something out of a box, there is less content in the box. Not more. Moreover, in most cases the act of grain removal will also remove some detail. No filter is failsafe in distinguishing grain/noise from the wanted detail.


Statements like "you must remove grain" or "you must keep the grain" are nonsense. People who say either way love to hear themselves talking, but have little clue.
If I'd tell you "Every man must wear a beard!" or "No man may ever wear a beard", you'll agree that is total nonsense.

Seen from that angle, grains and beards are close relatives. :)

[kevinsert]

i saw lots of studio release DNR'd..and it looks awful and lack of detail :)
let me give you 1*2 shots and you remove the grain then we ll see what happens..
grain is a pure detail from the 35mm film..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_halide

[thewebchat]

Let me clue you in something: The first thing every movie studio does after shooting their "film" is remove all the grain/noise/whatever using digital processing. All the "grain" that you see in the final edited version is artificially generated. For that matter, almost nothing is shot on actual film today, so in fact, there isn't even any "grain" in the footage to begin with.

[Ghitulescu]

Let me clue you in something: The first thing every movie studio does after shooting their "film" is remove all the grain/noise/whatever using digital processing. All the "grain" that you see in the final edited version is artificially generated. For that matter, almost nothing is shot on actual film today, so in fact, there isn't even any "grain" in the footage to begin with.

If this is true (I assume it is, it's also known from the public specifications of BluRay), then you just forgot to add that this is a new procedure for Digital Age. It was not done in the past.

For old movies you'll still have lots of such "details" - see the stills in this post -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1313597#post1313597
Cleaning them (carefully) improves the quality, as many examples show exactly this (one of the stills in that post is captured from a clip that showd us how the movie was processed - in this case it was Journey to the center of the Earth).

Vox populi, vox Dei - if artificially "grained" images are so appealing, why they didn't/don't use them in presenting the HDTV Age, all the images I've seen were perfectly clean, even from old movies? Because the general perception of the public is that the grains/noise actually takes details away (they "mask" the details).

[siella]

certainly i agree with Didée

Also neuron2

If excessive grain is caused by noise in the processing chain, rather than being the creator's intent, or the natural look of film that one desires to retain, then removing (some of) it may improve the overall impression.

I just sad at other private forum " grain is not detail, grain is falled out when 35mm analog converting to digital. Sharpen give you detail but at the sametime crystallize grains. If you can remove grain with out lose detail you can remove.

Of course when you use strongly denoise detail will be losed.

Grain is not wanted. When i look to sky i dont see any grain :D But if you like grain, i cant say anything. and i just reverence

So If you want to remove grain you must use denoise carefuly

I give some sample Just i used at 1 and 2 some sharpen and denoise. but last used just denoise

Source

http://i36.tinypic.com/25s3479.png

trying to remove grain 1

http://i36.tinypic.com/16ifs68.png

trying to remove grain 2
http://i35.tinypic.com/dw6rcz.jpg

Fully remove grain
http://i37.tinypic.com/9r4rgy.png


An other removing operation and very successful for me

Source
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7676/source10000.png

Encode
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9799/encode10001.png

[Ghitulescu]

Exactly my point.

[CWR03]

Let me clue you in something: The first thing every movie studio does after shooting their "film" is remove all the grain/noise/whatever using digital processing. All the "grain" that you see in the final edited version is artificially generated.
So the 1966 movie Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo that kevinsert referenced in the first image was digitally grained?

For that matter, almost nothing is shot on actual film today, so in fact, there isn't even any "grain" in the footage to begin with.
Totally untrue. Film is slowly being phased out, but it is far from "almost" replaced.

[Blue_MiSfit]

+1!

Film is still widely used - for a variety of reasons!

[Forteen88]

What degrain-filters are recommended to still keep the details (not making it look like a waxcake)? Some movies are probably so grainy that x264 compresses much better when removing the added grain.

[kevinsert]

certainly i agree with Didée

Also neuron2



I just sad at other private forum " grain is not detail, grain is falled out when 35mm analog converting to digital. Sharpen give you detail but at the sametime crystallize grains. If you can remove grain with out lose detail you can remove.

Of course when you use strongly denoise detail will be losed.

Grain is not wanted. When i look to sky i dont see any grain :D But if you like grain, i cant say anything. and i just reverence

So If you want to remove grain you must use denoise carefuly

I give some sample Just i used at 1 and 2 some sharpen and denoise. but last used just denoise

Source

http://i36.tinypic.com/25s3479.png

trying to remove grain 1

http://i36.tinypic.com/16ifs68.png

trying to remove grain 2
http://i35.tinypic.com/dw6rcz.jpg

Fully remove grain
http://i37.tinypic.com/9r4rgy.png


An other removing operation and very successful for me

Source
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7676/source10000.png

Encode
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9799/encode10001.png

taking pelham screen which says source is NOT FROM THE SOURCE... :)
go ahead remove the grain in the first shot Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo..i wanna see the details after the removing grain.
you saying removing grain is ok cuz you r from Prodji encode group (personally which is worst encode group in the world'' adding sharpen effects and claim they r best )
:rolleyes:

[thewebchat]

I'm p. sure I don't give a **** what crappy movie kevin sert was or was not talking about. The only point is that grain can not possibly be a "pure detail from the silver halides" (lol) if the first thing studios do is remove it. Also kevin sert, it seems like you are speaking as one "experienced in the scene." Perhaps you need to read rule 6.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I'm p. sure the BluRay specifications say absolutely nothing about grain, either artificial or "natural."

[kevinsert]

i dont give a damn about scene and dont have any connection between them..me just trying to prove grain is detail ! if you ask experienced DP about this he ll answer you same..LOL ''When i look to sky i dont see any grain ''
:D
and how can you be sure about studios remove grain rule?it depens on director,studio,transfer etc...
answer this: why studio kept the grain../pls dont say i see grain removed lil bit but human eye cant see difference bla bla bla bullshit..
http://thumbnails14.imagebam.com/2513/abc20e25127867.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/abc20e25127867)
http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/2513/0d076125127829.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/0d076125127829)
http://thumbnails.imagebam.com/2513/1f936625127834.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1f936625127834)
Rodrigo Prieto (ASC,AMC) used three different film on this movie.
Kodak Vision 500T 5279
Kodak Vision 250D 5246
Kodak Vision 800T 5289
DP intend to do this..they used 5289 (heavy grain) at the climax of the movie
if you ask encoder about this he answer this grain added with programs :p..i dont know anything about encoding and i wont be DP ? is this your idea sir..

[Didée]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=14676 (Very first post, very last line)

Wish y'all a happy battle.

[siella]

taking pelham screen which says source is NOT FROM THE SOURCE..
How do you knows?
If you say this you must prove.

you saying removing grain is ok cuz you r from Prodji encode group

I am not love one groups. I like every group that make fine encode. And i am not from prodji encode group.
Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo
All people say the same thing but you dont want to understand
I can try to do that but you just understand "bla bla bla bullshit" so it is unnecessary for you

I dont like argument with belateds

so happy battle to you

[kevinsert]

pfft :) he s gone..
i know because i have the source give me the exact timeline for that scene and i ll post direct screen from source :)
And please do it ! add grain to that screen and we ll see :)
clueless arguments ?im sure you dont understand nothing from these sentences so go and improve your english..
All people say the same thing but you dont want to understand
who are they ? you and didee? oh sorry i forgot..you were the guys who created cinema right ?

[Guest]

Closed as signal to insult ratio is now too low. Also discussion of "scene" stuff is prohibited.