Finally, high profile on a PMP!

[Chengbin]

After so many years, high profile is finally supported on a PMP.

The Archos 5 Android, just released on the 15th, supports high profile in a MKV container (finally).

It is available in 16GB, 32GB, 160GB, and 500GB capacities (I'm getting a 500GB!) for $299, $379, $399, $499 respectively. (For some reason, Archos jacked up the price for the HDD models from $329 and $429 to $399 and $499 2 days after the release. They better drop it down to the original)

One lucky fellow got his hands on one. I made him do some testing on it, and it played my 1 minute sample, 1280x544, 6Mbps average, 13Mbps peak, perfectly. It is high profile, with 3 b and ref frames + b-pyramid.

Any video buffs interested in a PMP should check this out! I'm buying one as soon as it is available.

[CruNcher]

hehe if it's right what Teclast now claims to have achieved on the ARM11 :) in corporation with Telechips TCC8900 Archos 5 with the Omap 3 is outdated ;)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148961

they claim 1080p H.264 :D for the T56 ok not really officially they talk about MP4 @ 1080p could also mean ASP :P
but certainly it will be much much cheaper then the Archos 5 and it should at least do 720p HP like it but as i said for a much better price point major difference there wont be a 500GB version it will be like always Max 16 Gb + MicroSD :)

[Chengbin]

I won't believe anything until it is in a device, especially when it is not even confirmed H.264, hell it might be baseline playback. Tell me when they are implemented in an actual device. I don't think we'll be seeing high profile 1080p H.264 until at least 2011.

Archos PMPs are expensive because it uses very expensive screens (because they are video players) and large HDDs. It also has Wi-Fi.

[CruNcher]

nahh Archos is expensive because they target the Premium PMP audience nothing more ;) and they make plenty of money with extra services ;) and accessory like the docking stations, the first low price Device for another audience was the Archos 3 Vision and it was rather outdated technology wise with the old RK2705 (SD) Chipset, though it has a very nice Archos GUI and touch interface :)
i would rather buy a Tegra Device as those should also playback your sample just fine (inofficial) and be cheaper ;)
Also the Ipod touch 3G + CorePlayer Mobile should be quiet powerful :) but yeah you need special accessory again for HD output

[Chengbin]

What do you rate the value of an iPod Touch? 0.1?

[CruNcher]

For the Price it's a nice MID :) though there will be 1080p MIDs coming from China soon (it's there new target) for prices surely even lower then 200$, the question is how powerful these will be really the target of 1080p fluid H.264 Playback is high even if they shouldn't reach it fully 720p in HP should be by then finaly fluid ;) and how much power still sleeps inside Tegra (Samsung M1,Zune HD) and the Samsung Cortex Chip inside of the Iphone ;) Coreplayer Mobile could unleash that performance i guess on both :)
There's currently to much moving on the market to buy a just released Omap 3 PMP like the Archos 5 Android Internet Tablet (especially for it's imho to high Price)

[Chengbin]

You can't buy Chinese PMPs outside of Asia, which makes it irrelevant.

But anyway, Chinese PMPs are still struggling to play high profile in 720p. They're still skipping frames for a 2Mbps video @ 720p.

The Chinese PMPs might be $200, but they come with 8/16GB storages, a far cry from Archos's 500GB model.

The 16GB model is $299, which isn't too bad for a device that does all that.

Remember if Archos only does video, it can be a lot cheaper too. But it does Wi-Fi, GPS, and high capacity storage, making them much more useful, but also more expensive.

[CruNcher]

Yes the last Generation of Chinese PMPs had still performance issues but the new Generation has the 1080p H.264 Goal and that also in MID style (Wifi,GPS,3G) now a Goal that even Nvidia will roughly need 4-5 months to introduce it (officially), it's gonna be interesting to see if those rather small manufactures can deliver this before the big ones come up with it, certainly Archos did a lot of optimization but try a full HD-Ready Stream HP 1280x720 and not some strange non Anamorphic res :P
Im pretty sure that unofficially Zune HD and the Samsung M1 could also playback your sample with ease (they would just draw more power) and that is most probably restricted via the Firmware to avoid support problems, especially on the Zune HD ;)
But the goal should be finally fluid 1280x720p HP L3.1 @ 30fps the RK2806 comes very near to that, especially when using the direct TV connection without any additional scaling for the small LCD going on though this certainly gonna improve sure Archos are the first now to have achieved that on the Omap 3 (though your sample was film and no full HD-Ready res) which is rather strange as the last time i talked with a Archos Engineer he said they have just reached fluid BP/MP and HP still made problems on the Cortex + DSP, seems they could enhance the performance a little :)

And yeah the Archos 5 is the only Device which seems is able to provide this power though you have also to invest extra into the HD mini dock to make use of it, which costs extra like the Zune HD Dock with HDMI out ;) so the price gets a little higher then 299$ (having Wifi and GPS is certainly a plus and makes the price acceptable somehow, but still personally i believe the price is to high of course not for early adopters, as yet to less competition is going on which gonna change over the next months for sure)
But of course the final goal is a PMP/MID which can do 1080p HP L4.1 in your pocket and that with very low power that's gonna need still some time your 2011 timeframe isn't so bad in that regard ;)

If the Firmware Restrictions on the Archos 5 Android Internet Tablet shouldn't be that high in terms of the Application Layer it becomes a very interesting Device since the PSP came out, and we gonna see a rush of Homebrew, but im not sure how the Archos Management saw that Development as they want to provide also a Application selling Platform :). But even if they shouldn't be positive to this they will see the restrictions they implemented get broken up sooner or later anyways ;)

[microchip8]

LOL, try experiencing the pleasure of full HD resolution on a small screen like the portables have... The only benefit I can see for such portable devices supporting HD resolutions is that you won't have to encode your content twice, once for your HD TV/monitor and once for your portable device

[Chengbin]

try a full HD-Ready Stream HP 1280x720 and not some strange non Anamorphic res :P

I want to, but it would be rude because I asked him to test 5 videos already. I asked him to try the Crowdrun sample at 1280x720 @ 9.2Mbps, but it jerked, making me believe that a buffer exists to allow peaks to be smoothly played. I'll test the unit myself thoroughly when I get it.

Im pretty sure that unofficially Zune HD and the Samsung M1 could also playback your sample with ease (they would just draw more power) and that is most probably restricted via the Firmware to avoid support problems, especially on the Zune HD ;)

I doubt it. Didn't NVIDIA say only baseline 720p is supported?

But the goal should be finally fluid 1280x720p HP L3.1 @ 30fps the RK2806 comes very near to that

No it doesn't.

I've asked many people on forums to test out a sample I provided (2.5Mbps 1280x544). None of them played it perfectly.

Archos are the first now to have achieved that on the Omap 3 (though your sample was film and no full HD-Ready res) which is rather strange as the last time i talked with a Archos Engineer he said they have just reached fluid BP/MP and HP still made problems on the Cortex + DSP, seems they could enhance the performance a little :)

How did you get to talk to an Archos engineer? When did you ask?

but still personally i believe the price is to high of course not for early adopters, as yet to less competition is going on which gonna change over the next months for sure)

You can't compare the price of PMPs here to Chinese PMPs for obvious reasons. Outside of Asia, Archos is light years ahead in terms of being a "true" video player. I certainly wouldn't say it is expensive compared to the iPod and Zune. It is expensive though.

BTW, do you plan to change your style of writing? It is difficult to read when you don't put any punctuations.:)

[CruNcher]

See the claims of bitrate here @ full 1080p
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.imp3.net/1/show.php?itemid=25407

that is definitely gonna kill anything if it comes out especially peak on the sentence "This full HD products, is a traditional sense of the MP4, but not without the battery and the screen set-top box, this product can run independently and can replace the 1080P set-top box." and they gonna launch those on the 25th already just amazing :)

I talked with the Archos Engineer before they announced the 15th September unveiling asking if they would bring out something similar and competitive to the Chinese PMPs in Flash form 4 days later the info about the Archos 5 Internet Tablet leaked, they are aware of the competition (though his answer was i can't talk about future products of course, but he told me how far they are with Video Decoding on the Omap 3 and that they seemed to have reached the end @ MP 720p) :D

These new Chinese Devices could kill the Archos 5 Internet Tablet again ;) if they really should be that powerful how they claim (im pretty sure they use some special Video DSP in these Devices else i can't understand how they should be able todo 1080p H.264 @ 30Mbps on these ARM Chips if Omap 3 isn't even able yet todo much lower bitrates as in your 1280x720p case :P

This Device sounds like a Dream and it comes 1 year to early if it's real and from a company that is well ehm lower then Nvidia :P

It seems no joke Telechips seems to claim they will have the first Devices with it's TCC8900 on the market supporting full 1080p H.264 Playback before NVIDIA http://74.125.39.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.imp3.net/1/show.php%3Fitemid%3D25456&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjmy-sJjXH61K0vowETDSs6WS2diw

If Nvidia doesn't announce a Tegra 650 Device fast they could loose this race :P

Funny thing is everyone was betting on the SoChip, RockChip, or Ingenic and now TeleChips comes and drives ahead of all of them including Nvidia ;)

All these Chinese Chips that announce 1080p support seem to be more comparable to the Omap 4 (Dual Core Architecture) no surprise that they will beat the Archos 5 Internet Tablet Performance (Omap 3) then.

[Chengbin]

Cruncher, just curious, can you read Chinese? You found that info very quickly.

I highly doubt 1080p is possible. Chinese companies often lie/exaggerate.

There is one major flaw, no high capacity storages, killing all purposes of 1080p.

Also, if it is not available outside of Asia, there is absolutely no point. You can't get it.

You also can't kill the Archos PMP, because it has too low of a storage and no GPS. Most people buy Archos is because of its high capacity models + excellent video support. Not to mention again that you can't get it.

Archos players do not sell well in China, because it is considered a "luxury" product (easily costing someone 1-2 months of their salary), have "useless" features such as Wi-Fi, they're high capacity, and near zero RMVB support.

[nurbs]

Anyone know if this thing can run regular android applications and if you can update android just like on cell phones? I like the hardware, but Archos' site could be better.

Chengbin, if you get this would you be willing to test a short clip for me. I normally do 720p HP@L3.1, but when the movie has a wide aspect ratio I encode to a resolution that has about the same number of pixels as 720p, e.g. 1472x624. I'd post a 1 minute sample on mediafire if you agree.

[DarkZell666]

LOL, try experiencing the pleasure of full HD resolution on a small screen like the portables have... The only benefit I can see for such portable devices supporting HD resolutions is that you won't have to encode your content twice, once for your HD TV/monitor and once for your portable device

+1, not having to re-encode is nice ... but that's about it :/

720p on a 800x480px (http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/specs.html) screen :rolleyes:

Mind you ... the supported formats list is rather fair ... hmm .. well the DVD/MPEG-2/AC3 playback is available only via a separate plugin ...

[CruNcher]

There is one major flaw, no high capacity storages, killing all purposes of 1080p.
Not correct all these Devices have USB OTG capabilities ;)


Also, if it is not available outside of Asia, there is absolutely no point. You can't get it.
Yep it's not easy but possible and people already demand it outside of China ;)


You also can't kill the Archos PMP, because it has too low of a storage and no GPS. Most people buy Archos is because of its high capacity models + excellent video support. Not to mention again that you can't get it.

Archos players do not sell well in China, because it is considered a "luxury" product (easily costing someone 1-2 months of their salary), have "useless" features such as Wi-Fi, they're high capacity, and near zero RMVB support.

Sure Archos won't die for the Average Customers but for those with more knowledge they will, isn't really a problem for them anyways ;)
Second point exactly right and that's why Chinese will get better stuff first for the same price others sell 720p Devices now like the Zune HD or Archos 5 Android Internet Tablet for ;)


My good geez that's about it ? 1 Device 1 time pay all possibilities :) i call that perfect, something the industry struggled to deliver for a long time seems now to become reality.
You have a small transportable PC in your pocket (non x86 based, and for it's power consumption very powerful) that you can carry around and @ home you connect it to your HDTV and playback your 1080p stuff and even save power compared to a current Standalone, and if you wish you can add a GPS,3G or anything you like to it ;)
And yes it makes transcoding a thing of the past finally, Devices like the Xtreamer or Popcorn Hour need 11W to playback HD the Devices we talk here need maybe about 1-3W for the same Goal and even if you connect a low power hardrive to them you roughly gonna reach 6W.
That's the first Generation Nvidia already announced how their roadmap looks and the power reduction over the years (and performance increase that's coming with it) :)
The only important thing is these Devices need to be as free as possible without any restrictions or bindings to services (like the PSP, Zune HD or Ipod Touch are bound to so many restrictions) like a real x86 PC these days is virtually free especially a free Application Layer, just look what the People made out of the PSP as one of the first MIDs it was (it was marketed as a Game Console but we all know what it really was capable of).
And i find it quiet amazing that not Sony,Microsoft or Apple are going to present such 1080p MIDs but some rather Chinese no names from Shenzen with their Android Vision :) technology wise Omap 3 is outdated and Archos just brought in a Update based again on their old Hardware stuff and just added Android on top (with some marginal Decoder optimizations)
These Chinese on the other side replacing the whole underlying Hardware and prepare for their Dual Core low power Chips to enter the market :)
Im not quiet sure yet if it is a paper launch and how long it will actually take before these Devices see the day of light for real but it shouldn't take that much longer which probably also means Nvidia is going to announce something about the Tegra 650 soon, they just gonna give Microsoft the time to sell the Zune HD and then boom we gonna get 1080p from them too (don't forget they already showed 1080p playback on their Reference Devices these already exist and for sure some higher brand companies already work on their market introduction but they wont push them out yet when they roughly started with bringing 720p Devices to the market) ;)

PS: No i can't any Chinese and yes i learned about these exaggeration strategy in the last PMP Generation marketing rush and so im also still skeptical, especially as in case for the TCC8900 Chip TeleChips Diagram they released showed HD-Ready for H.264 and Full-HD for VC-1 and ASP but who knows how old that was and how they improved the Decoding Performance in that time ;)

Here's my Personal list of things i think Archos could have made better:
-> Integrating the Host USB inside the case (hmm no place ?)
-> Integrating the DC IN into the case as well (most probably no place for the PSU anymore)
-> Real Video Specs on their website (MKV 720p 2500kbs how funny is that)
-> • Internal: Lithium Polymer battery (nice and how much capacity does it have ?)

we wont see such stuff with Chinese PMPs they always integrate everything inside the main unit same for the coming MIDs

Here we go 1st Video of the new 1080p PMP Generation what seems to be H.264 inside .mov, now we need a HDMI out Video and we have the prof that it can indeed decoding it flawless ;) the .mov samples suggest that those are encoded with Apples Quicktime H.264 and so BP 1080p.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.imp3.net/1/show.php%3Fitemid%3D25462&rurl=translate.google.com

both fluid the final fantasy sample misses the bitrate (seems to can't read it from the container correct)

[Chengbin]

Here's my Personal list of things i think Archos could have made better:
-> Integrating the Host USB inside the case (hmm no place ?)
-> Integrating the DC IN into the case as well (most probably no place for the PSU anymore)
-> Real Video Specs on their website (MKV 720p 2500kbs how funny is that)
-> • Internal: Lithium Polymer battery (nice and how much capacity does it have ?)

Archos don't make a lot of money on the units, they require accessories for profit. After 3 years of outcry on Archos forums, the plugin system finally is mostly gone (huge money maker).

Archos did those things on purpose so you have to buy one of the docks.

Their PMPs 4 years ago can do everything in one package (except no USB), including TV recording. But then they were ridiculously expensive.

The original Archos 5 had a 2600 (or 2700, I forgot) mAh battery.

Anyone know if this thing can run regular android applications and if you can update android just like on cell phones? I like the hardware, but Archos' site could be better.

There are reports that it can, but that's still to be confirmed.

Chengbin, if you get this would you be willing to test a short clip for me. I normally do 720p HP@L3.1, but when the movie has a wide aspect ratio I encode to a resolution that has about the same number of pixels as 720p, e.g. 1472x624. I'd post a 1 minute sample on mediafire if you agree.

If Archos didn't change (most likely), they have a very strict maximum resolution limit. In this case it is 1280x720. Exceeding the length or width will give you a message that it is unable to play, even if it is 1300x100

+1, not having to re-encode is nice ... but that's about it :/

720p on a 800x480px (http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/specs.html) screen :rolleyes:

Mind you ... the supported formats list is rather fair ... hmm .. well the DVD/MPEG-2/AC3 playback is available only via a separate plugin ...

HD is for outputting to TV through HDMI.

Why do you say the supported format is fair? I don't see how it can get much better. Except WMV advanced profile, it can play any setting on DivX, XviD, and H.264. The only thing it would make it better is RMVB support, An update should support it, since the last 2 generations did.

Hell, it even supports VP6 (for Flash video)

[nurbs]

If Archos didn't change (most likely), they have a very strict maximum resolution limit. In this case it is 1280x720. Exceeding the length or width will give you a message that it is unable to play, even if it is 1300x100

That would be bad, but I guess I could always reencode the movies. I'm more a TV series guy anyway so the majority should be compatible. If it can run generic android apps I could just download another media player.

Further questions:
What about 5.1 AAC tracks. Will it downmix to stereo or just refuse to play them like the ipod?
Is there an official release date? I only found it in one online shop in my area (central europe) that has it listed and they say they'll ship it starting 1st of october.

[Chengbin]

5.1 AAC tracks don't work. There will be no sound.

It is released, but supply is low.

[Chengbin]

Well, after a week of complaining, Archos finally dropped the price to the original. The 500GB is now $419 at Amazon.

[CruNcher]

They will get Problems the 720p MIDs are coming ;) though the older ARM arch the Rk2808 is based on seems not as powerful as the Cortex with amazingly 800 mhz Archos decided for (thus 720p performance on the RK2808 will be most probably like on the RK2806 based PMPs, if they didn't enhanced the Decoder again) :D though the price is also lower therefore, also Tegra Mids should appear soon though @ much more cost, a pitty as Nvidia promised 99$ Devices :). But people that search no MID will go 1080p PMPs anyways soon, though also 1080p Android MIDS could appear faster than Archos would like it.

It's thinner then the Archos 5 (we have to wait if that plays into battery life much)

http://reviews.imp3.net/2009/ramos0925/05.jpg

It's a good thing that Archos droped the prices hope for the other Versions too as they still have a advantage as the RK2808 used in those mids is 600 Mhz and Archos has 200 Mhz more but it also depends on the DSP part (Archos using TI C64x) and RK using their own DSP part, especially the Decoder optimization are interesting to compare between both :)
Though both solutions i guess would be CoreAVC compatible so we can expect a speedup on both i guess when CorePlayer hit's Android :)