Mismatch of PGC Playback Time, is it legal?

[jinjin_jp]

About outout of AnyDVD Ripper, PgcEdit shows the warning like below.
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7389/cw1l.th.png (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/cw1l.png/)
It seems to be always when bad sector protect.

Is it legal? or illegal?

There seems not to be intention to correct it in AnyDVD, but I don't like it .

Regards.

[Wombler]

If PgcEdit is offering to fix it then it must be wrong, so just say yes.

PgcEdit always guides the user towards the safest option so in general always go with it's recommendations.


Wombler

[blutach]

Possibly also the PGC is unreferenced and AnyDVD has not worried about it. But answer yes anyway.

If the PGC is referenced, AnyDVD should fix things up - let the authors know of the bug.

Regards

[jinjin_jp]

@Wombler, @blutach

Thanks for the res.
I also think it had better to follow PgcEdit's recommendations and click yes.
But it is need to start PgcEditor about each title in order to show this warning, so I want to know whether legal or illegal.


If the PGC is referenced, AnyDVD should fix things up - let the authors know of the bug.
I think it is because AnyDVD does not correct the PGC playtime, even if some protected cells are removed and the sum of the playtime of each cells is reduced.

AnyDVD's author know it, but they seems to think it is not significant and judge it is better not to correct for some reason.
http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=193624&postcount=8
I confirmed it before, and then expected it will be fixed after some time, but it seems not to be what I expected, so I want to know whether legal or illegal.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

The problems with wrong PGC durations are usually minor. The player could display a slightly wrong time code when the title is played (especially when it displays the remaining time, as I guess it is deduced from the total time minus the current time.) But I can't see any good reason to not fix the total time, at least if all protected cells have been removed or replaced by good cells. (If the bad cells are still there and are still skipped during the playback, the wrong time can be the total time of the cells that are really played, excluding the skipped cells. But anyway, even when a cell is skipped, its duration must theoretically be included in the PGC duration.)

There is a quick way to check the PGC duration of all Titles in the DVD. Use Title -> Verify All Time Maps Coherence. That function checks if the total of the durations of the cells matches the PGC time, and when it's not the case, it offers to recreate the time map. (Of course, the Create Time Map function fails if there are bad cells in the PGC, but with Verify All Time Maps Coherence, you can quickly have a list of the PGCs to verify, and you can then open the PGC Editor to fix the PGC duration without recreating the time map.)

[jinjin_jp]

@r0lZ

Thanks for the information and explanation.

The player could display a slightly wrong time code when the title is played (especially when it displays the remaining time, as I guess it is deduced from the total time minus the current time.)
I can confirm it.
The sum of remaiinng time and present time is wrong PGC playback time.
Main movie ends, when remaining time is 5 second.

There is a quick way to check the PGC duration of all Titles in the DVD. Use Title -> Verify All Time Maps Coherence.
I tryed it. It is convinient. Thank very much.

And I found what I didn't noticed.
*Output of AnyDVD always doesn't have this warning.
*In Certain case, PGC Editor doesn't show this warning, even if "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" shows.
I'll continue to test.

Anyway, I don't like AnyDVD's feature.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

*In Certain case, PGC Editor doesn't show this warning, even if "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" shows.
"Verify All Time Maps Coherence" checks also if the number of entries in the time map matches the PGC duration, and, of course, if the time map exists. So, it can display a warning for a PGC with a correct total duration.

[jinjin_jp]

I continued to test.

*Output of AnyDVD always doesn't have this warning.
Sorry it seems to be my mistake.
This seems to be one of test, output of AnyDVD is from ISO from another ripper.

*In Certain case, PGC Editor doesn't show this warning, even if "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" shows.
"Verify All Time Maps Coherence" shows ;
---------------------------------------------------
VTST 1 , 9 TTN 9 (51:00) Title 9 (sequential title)
1528 x 2 seconds = 50:56 ********** WARNING! **********
---------------------------------------------------
I actually calculated total of cells times and compared, but it is 51:00.
It seems to be that PGC Editor is right.

There was found another mis-match.
PGC Editor show this warning, but "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" doesn't show.
It also seems to be that PGC Editor is right.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

Hum, I have to verify what "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" does exactly. But its goal is to warn the user when there are too few or too much entries in the time map for the total length of the PGC. In your example, there are 1528 entries, and the duration between the entries is 2 seconds, so the total duration of the time map is 50:56. If the duration of the PGC is not between 50:56 and 50:58 (plus a little tolerance when the last cell is a short black cell, not necessarily included in the time map) PgcEdit issues the warning. In this case, there is one or two missing entries in the time map, hence the warning. It doesn't mean that the PGC duration is wrong.

But now, I'm not sure PgcEdit recalculates the total PGC duration from the cells durations during the verify phase. It does it if you rebuild the table, as all cells durations are recalculated from the VOB cells, and of course, the PGC duration needs also to be fixed. So, to fix all PGC durations, you could use the Rebuild Time Map functions. (But they don't work when there are bad protected cells in the PGC.)

[jinjin_jp]

Now I can understand the meaning of what you say i.e; what "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" does,
(It is different from the warning of PgcEditor "The Pgc Playback Time doesn't match the total of the cells times".)
I confirmed that below is right by IfoEdit.
there are 1528 entries, and the duration between the entries is 2 seconds, so the total duration of the time map is 50:56.
This example of output of DVDFabHDDDecrypter 5.3.1.0beta.
It seems to be the bug of Fab. (don't know about current version.)
The first 16 cells are same V/C-ID and tiny cells.
I think 1st(o second) and 2nd(2 second) and 3rd(4 second) entry adress in VTS_TMAPTI should be same. But these are different.
About AnyDVD ver.6.5.2.8, these 3 entry adress are same. I think it is right.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

Yes, the rippers that replace the bad cells should also fix the time map. But IMO they should remove the bad cells completely (and remove the corresponding entries in the time map). However, I agree that it's not easy to do!

[jinjin_jp]

About second example,
There was found another mis-match.
PGC Editor show this warning, but "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" doesn't show.
It also seems to be that PGC Editor is right.
It is strange why "Verify All Time Maps Coherence" doesn't show "Wrong TMAP duration".
It seems to recognize it like below.
---------------------------------------------------
VTST 1 , 1 TTN 1 (2:32:05) Title 1 (sequential title)
1824 x 5 seconds = 2:32:00
---------------------------------------------------
There is the difference of 5 second,
but it judges
------------------- Summary -------------------
No Time Map errors detected.
---------------------------------------------------
First example shows "Wrong TMAP duration", when the difference is 4 seconds.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

That could be caused by two things:

- Since the time map pointer has to point to the beginning of a VOBU, they are almost never pointing exactly to the right duration. If, per chance, the last time map duration falls near the end of the last VOBU, the pointer should be "rounded" to the next VOBU, that doesn't exist. Therefore, it must NOT be included.

- As I said above, there is a little "tolerance", especially when the last cell is a tiny black cell, that is probably not part of the movie itself. But even if there is no such tiny cell at the end, PgcEdit doesn't warn the user if there are some ms of video not covered by the time map. Don't forget that the time map is used only to facilitate the work of the player when it has to jump to a specific time in the PGC. Who wants to jump just before the end of the movie? That doesn't make sense, so if the last entry is missing, PgcEdit doesn't warn the user.

[jinjin_jp]

I tested to edit PGC playback time by IfoEdit.
It seems to be PgcEdit's feature.

Duration time from TMAPTI (2:32:00) is right, it is almost same as total of cells times (2:32:00.23).
PGC playback time (2:32:05.26) is obviously wrong because of AnyDVD's bug.

I edit PGC playback time ;
When edit to (2:32:05.29) ===> same as post#12.
When edit to (2:32:05.29) ===> PgcEdit show warning like below.
---------------------------------------------------
VTST 1 , 1 TTN 1 (2:32:06) Title 1 (sequential title)
1824 x 5 seconds = 2:32:00 ; ********** WARNING! **********
---------------------------------------------------
PgcEdit seems to round time which is less than second, compare PGC playback time and number of entrys x time unit in TMAPTI, and show warning if difference is equal or more than time unit (in this case 5 seconds).

Regards.

[r0lZ]

That's right. It's what it should do, imo.

[jinjin_jp]

@r0lZ

Thanks, I understand.

----------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I noticed to mis-typed in post#14

<wrong>
I edit PGC playback time ;
When edit to (2:32:05.29) ===> same as post#12.
When edit to (2:32:05.29) ===> PgcEdit show warning like below.

<right>
I edit PGC playback time ;
When edit to (2:32:05.29) ===> same as post#12.
When edit to (2:32:06.00) ===> PgcEdit show warning like below.

Regards.

[jinjin_jp]

About outout of AnyDVD Ripper, PgcEdit shows the warning like below.
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7389/cw1l.th.png (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/cw1l.png/)
It seems to be always when bad sector protect.

Here is the NEWS.
AnyDVD fixed wrong PGC playback time in ver.6.5.8.8beta.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

Great! :)