Help with lossless blu-ray ripping

[banzemanga]

Before the blu-rays where only DVDs were present i would demux the DVD's .VOB files and mux it back together into a new .VOB file to the respective chapters depending on the video series.

Now i want to do the same with the Blu-rays. Demuxing .M2TS files, get the respective chapters and audio; then mux it back to a new .M2TS file.

The tools i am currently using are:
-tsMuxeR: Seems like i could select my videos and audios and remux directly from the program and also includes a demuxing but it changes the audio format to .WAV
-TsRemux: Also seems that i could just select the videos and audios and remux directly but does not have a demux feature.

Here is the problem. If i take the original video and remux it with all the content it should be the same as the original but they all turned out to be different. Each remuxed file would contain less bit-rate than the original file.

I remember that when i did muxing and demuxing in DVDs with any program, all of the files turned out to be the same since no data should be lost during the muxing and demuxing process. Then, what is causing the drop of bit-rate?

[deank]

It seems you're doing something wrong, because:

1) tsMuxeR will not convert your audio to WAV (or anything else)
2) tsMuxeR will not change the video nor its bitrate, so a simple demux should get everything the same as the original

You can use eac3to and demux main movie playlist instead of tsMuxeR.

Dean

[banzemanga]

Here i did the remuxing of the original file again.
Like you can see the bit-rate dropped and the original file had 7.2GB while the remuxed one had 7.19

Edit: Assuming that the demuxing was fine then it has to do with muxing.
Is there any other program that could do m2ts muxing?

[deank]

Take a look again at the video bitrate - it is the same.

Using tsmuxer may result in more optimized m2ts packet muxing then the original, hence the difference in overall bitrate.

Also there is bitrate setting and vbv setting in tsmuxer - you can play with them, too.

After all.. you're getting 100% the original video+audio. tsMuxeR does not support ANY kind of conversion anyway.

Dean

[banzemanga]

Not quite. Read again. Even though the overall bit rate is 42.6 the "Maximum" allowed to be played is 35.5. There are 7.6 Mbps being capped.

[rik1138]

I've never used Media Info, does it actually crawl through the entire file to figure out the overall and max bitrates, or is it just reading some info at the head of the file? If it's just reading info at the head, it's very possible that it's just not accurate. Very few tools give true, accurate average and max bitrate information, they are more a rough estimate. Your files are not being changed, it's just the metadata that's slightly different. It's quite possible that it's just the difference in how TSMuxer creates an m2ts versus how Scenarist (or some other authoring tool) creates them... You aren't loosing any quality in video or audio.

[banzemanga]

Ya thanks for the advice about posting images.
By the way, i will use other programs to check the info again but i am sure that something is not quite right.
Like i mentioned before, using the same original demuxed data it went from 7.20GB to 7.19GB

Edit: The thing is also that i also used TsRemux besudes TsMuxer and each muxer gives me different file sizes. Do you guys know any other m2ts muxed besides those 2. I have found a lots of demuxers but the only muxer without remuxing i found so far is TsMuxer. If i had a nother muxer then i could compare the outcomes more clearly.

[rik1138]

Well, I would say if the remuxed m2ts works for you, don't worry about it... If you are ripping from a commercial disc, there's a good chance there's a little bit of metadata or other authoring information that is not being created by TSMuxer, and that's what is making your files different sizes. It's also possible that it's throwing away AACS encryption metadata, which isn't required for BD-Rs, but is required on replicated discs...

You might try demuxing the original and the remade one and see if the individual video/audio streams are different sizes. If the video stream is a little smaller, then it might be encryption related...

[banzemanga]

I am sure it is none of those suggestions. I researched and found that standard blu-ray max bitrate is indeed 48Mbps; it is just that the muxers i have used so far don't mux the videos to those values.

Just tell me others M2TS muxers. I can't find any.

[rik1138]

Keep in mind, the muxers ARE NOT changing the bitrate of your video/audio. The actual video and audio files are NOT being changed/altered/re-encoded in any way. The difference in file size and max/average bitrates being reported is simply a metadata/copy protection issue.

Everyone pretty much uses the muxing tools you already mentioned, as they work as they are intended to.

The only other option would be to use a commercial Blu-ray authoring package and see what it does...

Are you doing this from a commercial Blu-ray? If so, let me know which one. If I can get the disc, I can try it myself and try to find out what it's doing when it generates the metadata.

Rik

[banzemanga]

It is a Japanese title so i don't think you can't get ahold of it that easily. Yes, i agree that muxing doesn't change anything in the video and audio content but depending on what container it muxes, it plays a big role how the content of the video and audio is played. What I am suspecting is that the container is formed not properly for whatever reason (like a bug).

So i am wondering that what other m2ts muxing tools there are out there because otherwise i won't bother for that and mux it into another container.

[rik1138]

What I am suspecting is that the container is formed not properly for whatever reason (like a bug).

I don't think it's being formed incorrectly, it's just not being formed with 100% Blu-ray replication spec compliance. The professional authoring tools (Scenarist, Blu Print) have to include a lot of extra metadata in order for the disc to be valid for replication (AACS info, region coding, etc). Since TSMuxer, and other tools like it, aren't intended to be used for replication, they don't include this data (in fact, it's possible they can't include the replication data unless they have access to the Blu-ray spec books to know exactly what data to include). Since no one here is using these tools for replicated discs, it's not really a problem. You can't compare an m2ts from a replicated disc to an m2ts made with one of these tools, they will never be the same.

I've never had a problem with Blu-ray discs playing back in Blu-ray players, ever. I've played discs created with these tools in over 14 different players, including players from other regions and a PS3 Test station.

You apparently don't really care what container you use (since you say you will just use another type), so why are concerned about the m2ts files made from TSMuxer? They work perfectly...

[banzemanga]

Instead of going in circles, just tell me what other muxers are out there please.

[rik1138]

We already have: tsMuxer, tsRemux, Scenarist, Blu Print. That's all I know of (there may be others). tsMuxer is the best non-commercial one out there...

I think the problem here is you still haven't stated exactly what you want to get out of the muxing. You won't be able to duplicate the m2ts file from the replicated disc (and if that's what you want, just copy the one off the disc).

We've pointed out that the video and audio bitrates aren't being changed at all, but you still haven't said what, exactly, tsMuxer is doing to your m2ts files to make them unplayable (or causing whatever problem you are having with them).

What can you not do with the tsMuxer m2ts files that you would like to be able to do with them? If we go back to that point, maybe we can better figure out what the problem is...

[banzemanga]

Blu-ray has different max-bit rate standards. 35.5Mbps is one of them and 48Mpbs is another one of them. Of course, TsMuxer is standard compliant but doesn't recognize the bit-rate to mux; it just does it at 35.5Mbps all the time. Of course, it would be playable and almost impossible to notice the difference since it is still high-definition.

P.S.: Thanks for giving me the names of the tools.

http://www.videohelp.com/hd

[rik1138]

Blu-ray has different max-bit rate standards. 35.5Mbps is one of them and 48Mpbs is another one of them. Of course, TsMuxer is standard compliant but doesn't recognize the bit-rate to mux; it just does it at 35.5Mbps all the time. Of course, it would be playable and almost impossible to notice the difference since it is still high-definition.

You still don't get it... tsMuxer is not doing ANYTHING with the bitrate (max, minimum or average)... It's simply muxing the video and audio streams together. It's not changing a single thing in those files. It's not increasing the bitrate, and it's not decreasing the bitrate. It's leaving it EXACTLY the same as it is in the original m2ts you demuxed. It WILL be impossible to tell the difference, because there IS NO difference. There is a place in the metadata where you can store the values of the max/min/average bitrates. tsMuxer just isn't filling in these values correctly (in fact, there's a lot of professional tools that don't fill in these values correctly). But it is not actually changing the bitrate of your streams.

It's not changing a single pixel of video in any way what-so-ever.

If your only concern about the m2ts files that tsMuxer creates is the difference in the metadata that's reported by Media Info, then there's probably nothing we can do to help you... different applications will most likely create the metadata in different ways. But it's just metadata, which is ignored by playback devices anyway (at least the parts that have to do with bitrates).

As for max bitrate, there aren't different max bitrate standards. 40Mbps is the max video, 48Mbps is the max total (meaning video + audio + subvideo + subaudio + subtitles). So if you have 28Mbps of audio, subvideo, subaudio, and subtitles, you can't have your main video go higher than 20, etc.)

P.S.: Thanks for giving me the names of the tools.

http://www.videohelp.com/hd

The information here re-iterates what I posted above about bitrates... I have the Blu-ray spec as well, which goes into much more detail about all of this, but that's the basic idea there...

But, the bottom line is- tsMuxer is NOT changing your video or audio in ANY WAY... The m2ts it creates has EXACTLY the same bitrate, picture quality and audio quality as the source file, regardless of what Media Info is telling you.

[banzemanga]

We are really making this thread longer than what it should be. As you already know, if you demux a video and mux it back with same content and to the same container; the outcoming file should be the same as long as the muxing follows the standard.

How can i tell? Well i remux the video with everything the same and i get:
-Original : 7.20GB
-TsMuxer: 7.19GB
-TsRemuxer: 7.21

How much meta-data can there be? I have done a lot of muxing with DVDs and VOB files and no matter what tools i use for muxing and demuxing; they all come out exactly the same almost as if they were using the same code.

[Ghitulescu]

We are really making this thread longer than what it should be. As you already know, if you demux a video and mux it back with same content and to the same container; the outcoming file should be the same as long as the muxing follows the standard.

How can i tell? Well i remux the video with everything the same and i get:
-Original : 7.20GB
-TsMuxer: 7.19GB
-TsRemuxer: 7.21

How much meta-data can there be? I have done a lot of muxing with DVDs and VOB files and no matter what tools i use for muxing and demuxing; they all come out exactly the same almost as if they were using the same code.
These are tolerance values (they come from eg padding bits, alignements and so on) - the information content (images, sound, subtitles if any) is however identical.
It's like moving to another house, you can pack the same content (lots of boxes) in different ways and therefore need various trucks, it depends on your ability to arrange the items what size do you need.

[rik1138]

We are really making this thread longer than what it should be.

That's because you still refuse to state exactly what your problem is (other than getting files of different sizes, which shouldn't matter if they work). For some reason (that you refuse to disclose), you are demuxing an m2ts, and remuxing it. Why? Tell me what you expect to get out of the remuxed m2ts. If you just want an exact copy of the original m2ts, that's not going to happen. The BD spec has not been made public (that I'm aware of, at least), and the specifications for AACS are even more closely guarded. BD _requires_ AACS on every replicated disc. You will never get an identical m2ts with a home-use muxing tool. The home-use tools don't insert the metadata for AACS. Even if the BD is 'ripped' via AnyDVD or something, there's still AACS information in the file.

As you already know, if you demux a video and mux it back with same content and to the same container; the outcoming file should be the same as long as the muxing follows the standard.

There's different standards, primarily one for replicated discs, and others for non-replicated discs. Just taking a guess here- some muxers probably omit the AACS information completely (and possibly other metadata that's not required to make the file play back), thus making the m2ts a little smaller, some muxers might be padding the metadata with 0's or something (which could make the m2ts a little bigger). I don't know for sure. Using Scenarist, I can change some settings in the project (and not change anything to do with the streams and m2ts files themselves), and it will create different m2ts files. Are any of the home-use muxers making spec-compliant m2ts files? Probably not (because of the metadata). Are the streams themselves muxed in a compliant way? Yes. That's why they play on BD players. If your intention is to actually replicate a Blu-ray disc with something muxed with txMuxer, it's probably going to fail. If that's your end goal, you need to use Scenarist or Blu-print.

How much meta-data can there be?

Quite a bit actually. Muxing overhead for metadata is roughly 5-10% Assuming 5%, that's 360mb for your 7.2 GB file (in either direction). It's easy to figure out: Demux your m2ts, and look at the file size of the demuxed streams. How much smaller are they than the original m2ts? The missing data is your metadata information. Depending on what the home-use muxers do, your remuxed file could be anywhere from 6.9 to 7.5gb in size. You would need to know all the exact parameters used to create the original disc (including things like AACS keys, disc IDs, etc), and have a muxer that understands all of that (the home-use ones don't) to even hope to get an identical file.

I have done a lot of muxing with DVDs and VOB files and no matter what tools i use for muxing and demuxing; they all come out exactly the same almost as if they were using the same code.

That's because there's only one way to mux a VOB (well, technically two- one with and one without CSS encryption). CSS always worked the same way, that's why when it was cracked, there was no way for the DVD Forum to change it. BD doesn't work that way. The amount of metadata stored in an m2ts for Blu-ray can change.

The only way you are going to get a 100% identical m2ts file is to use the exact same muxing tool, and with the exact same project parameters as the company that made the original disc (and you'd probably then have to replicate the disc with the same AACS keys, and rip it with the same tool you used already). There's a LOT of room for variance on Blu-ray. It doesn't mean the files these home-use tools are creating are invalid in any way, they are just slightly different. Blu-ray is vastly more complicated than DVD, which leaves a lot more room for variance. Not error, but variance. Like I said, you will probably not be able to replicate a BD disc from anything output from tsMuxer or tsRemuxer, but that doesn't mean the output is invalid. It's perfectly fine for non-encrypted BD-R use.

[banzemanga]

That's because you still refuse to state exactly what your problem is (other than getting files of different sizes, which shouldn't matter if they work). For some reason (that you refuse to disclose), you are demuxing an m2ts, and remuxing it. Why? Tell me what you expect to get out of the remuxed m2ts.
Well since the very beginning i never had a problem with the video playback; i only wanted the name of the tools to replicate the video using BD standards.

The BD spec has not been made public (that I'm aware of, at least), and the specifications for AACS are even more closely guarded. BD _requires_ AACS on every replicated disc. You will never get an identical m2ts with a home-use muxing tool. The home-use tools don't insert the metadata for AACS. Even if the BD is 'ripped' via AnyDVD or something, there's still AACS information in the file.
That explains it. Then other than describing bit-rates and audio/video information; what would happen to a video with no metadata? Doesn't metadata play a role in video playback? I mean the video content will be there but the playback would be different (although not noticeable).

[rik1138]

That explains it. Then other than describing bit-rates and audio/video information; what would happen to a video with no metadata? Doesn't metadata play a role in video playback? I mean the video content will be there but the playback would be different (although not noticeable).

Well, you probably can't make a valid m2ts with NO metadata... There has to be the basic information- Number of streams (audio and video), and the codecs used to encode them. I think that's probably the very minimum. You can also store things like bitrate information, language settings, parental setting might be able to be stored there as well. Players don't care about the bitrate metadata information. A player will play the stream, regardless of it's bitrate. If the bitrate is too high for blu-ray playback, forcing a smaller number in the metadata won't make the file play... It's more just an information setting, which is probably why not many muxing tools bother to calculate the numbers correctly. And the ones that do never seem to calculate the exact same numbers used when the file was encoded...

If an m2ts with no metadata can be created, the player will just play back the video/audio streams as it finds them. The individual streams have their own metadata stating things like video picture size, number of audio channels, etc, so the player can still get valid info from there. If it's one video and one audio, it would probably play fine. If there's more than one video or audio stream present, then that might cause playback issues if the player doesn't know there's extra streams (for example- if you have two audio streams, it might try to play them both back at the same time...) I've never seen that done, so I'm not sure how the player would behave.

[banzemanga]

After looking around for weeks one of my friends happened to have Scenarist on his computer and so i brought my Blu-ray to him to rip it. And it turned out to be that because of the many authoring options we were still unable to get the original file but we were able to get the max bit rate to 48Mbps.

Thanks for your information. They were informative all this time. :thanks: