What has happened to this VHS tape?

[VonOben]

Hi,

trying to capture one of my original VHS tapes for tranfer to DVD. I bought it second hand, so I have no clue about it's previous life.

It turns out like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BquznuC8pTU

Periodic drop-outs. Stereo track contain spikes. Mono doesn't. No visible damage to the tape.

What has happened to this tape?

Used equipment: Panasonic NV-HD640 > Cypress Tech TBC > Canopus ADVC55

[Ghitulescu]

The simplest reason might be that the tape was not rewound after it stayed a lot. The drop-outs are caused by mistracking due to variable tension in band.

But there might be another reason: the Pannies are prone to capacitors failures, both in power supply and head-amplifier. Especially when they stayed out of mains for a while.

Try another VCR to pinpoint the problem. Or another tape. Try also to eliminate the TBC.

Addition: - I just remember I case I've seen long time ago - it was a VHS that was "worked" in a recorder that could insert/erase indexes, the story went like this: the guy placed an index, but it was too early, so he erased it and placed another one, but that was too late, erased the last one and finally managed to place it in the correct position, he wanted to be frame accurate with a consumer gear (yeap). The repeated atterations of the synch track made the VCR to loose the track each time it pased by that region.

[GrofLuigi]

Auto-tracking is kicking in. Panasonics did this a lot (I've also seen it on JVCs). As Ghitulescu said, it might also indicate another problem with the mechanics/electronics.

Try manual tracking and/or another VCR if you can. Of course, if it's already recorded that way, there's no hope. :(

GL

[VonOben]

Auto-tracking is kicking in.

Good thinking, I haven't thought about that. Now I have to figure out how to turn auto-tracking off. Not sure about that.

I'll try another (not too good) VCR, JVC HR-J670, in order to see if this problem persists.

[Ghitulescu]

The problem is not the auto-tracking :)

The problem is the tracking itself, all VCRs made after the '80ies have auto-tracking. What GrofLuigi said was that the tracking was so bad that you can see how auto-tracking works. ;)

What I listed above were the most plausible causes (I rejected the physical damage of the tracking track and its damage because of near magnetic fields, like placing the VHS cassette near the TV) for tracking issues (synch).

What I would do, in case nothing else works, is to load the tape into a JVC BR-S525 (luckily there are models for both standards) and activate its dynamic tracking. If this fails and I still want to recover my footage, then I would capture it frame by frame (frame advance with manual tracking control). The sound I would do it separately in the second go.

[VonOben]

What I would do, in case nothing else works, is to load the tape into a JVC BR-S525 (luckily there are models for both standards) and activate its dynamic tracking. If this fails and I still want to recover my footage, then I would capture it frame by frame (frame advance with manual tracking control). The sound I would do it separately in the second go.

Sound like a plan. :)

I'm searching, and been doing so for quite some time, for a good PAL SVHS or DVHS player. It's been quite some time since the studios here in Sweden switched to digital so very few players surface second hand. Those who do tends to be AG-7500 for some reason. And they're a bit overpriced, in my opinion.

Could buy some on Ebay, but the shipping cost for these babies are a bit frightening. Almost as much as the deck itself. Guess I should investigate if shipping from UK och Germany makes more sense to the total cost.

[Ghitulescu]

Sound like a plan. :)

I'm searching, and been doing so for quite some time, for a good PAL SVHS or DVHS player. It's been quite some time since the studios here in Sweden switched to digital so very few players surface second hand. Those who do tends to be AG-7500 for some reason. And they're a bit overpriced, in my opinion.

Could buy some on Ebay, but the shipping cost for these babies are a bit frightening. Almost as much as the deck itself. Guess I should investigate if shipping from UK och Germany makes more sense to the total cost.

Yeah, the AG-7xxx are quite good, I own myself two such babies. If could buy an used one for 15€ (post packet), lucky you :)

[GrofLuigi]

Ghitulescu read me better than myself. :D

GL

[VonOben]

If could buy an used one for 15€ (post packet), lucky you :)

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this sentence. Is some word missing, or am I just stupid? :)

I've tried the JVC now, and it plays the tape more or less without problems. The standard on this one is a bit low to use for capturing although. Haven't seen this problem with the Panasonic on any other tape before.

[Ghitulescu]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this sentence. Is some word missing, or am I just stupid? :)

I've tried the JVC now, and it plays the tape more or less without problems. The standard on this one is a bit low to use for capturing although. Haven't seen this problem with the Panasonic on any other tape before.

15€ costs the shipping of an AG7xxx within Germany (DHL, some 12kg). You said the postage would be greater than the aquisition cost of such a gear, so I assumed you paid (or will pay) less than 15€ apiece for a VCR.
The AG7500 is a good recorder, but if you could have the choice you might choose the AG735x as it plays/records both PAL and NTSC. But the BRS525E should be the first choice.
-=-
But have you tried to fully rewind the tape and play it again in the Panny? It would be wise to wind/rewind it in the player/recorder as it lays the band smoother in the cassette.
-=-
Don't bother to use a D-VHS, they're no better than a good S-VHS from JVC (they use the same mechanics though).

[VonOben]

15€ costs the shipping of an AG7xxx within Germany (DHL, some 12kg). You said the postage would be greater than the aquisition cost of such a gear, so I assumed you paid (or will pay) less than 15€ apiece for a VCR.
The AG7500 is a good recorder, but if you could have the choice you might choose the AG735x as it plays/records both PAL and NTSC. But the BRS525E should be the first choice.

We misunderstood eachother. I was refering to the cost of buying a VCR from US via Ebay. The shipping cost for a 20 kilogram package from US to Sweden is around $150 with US Postal Service and $370 with FedEx. _That_ is about the same as the unit itself, from US.

Now I've checked the shipping from Germany, and that seems to be around 60€, and that's much more acceptable. :)


But have you tried to fully rewind the tape and play it again in the Panny? It would be wise to wind/rewind it in the player/recorder as it lays the band smoother in the cassette.

Yep. No change.


Don't bother to use a D-VHS, they're no better than a good S-VHS from JVC (they use the same mechanics though).

I know. But somehow I find D-VHS increadibly, utterly cool. ;) I'll probably go for a S-VHS in the end anyway since D-VHS seems hard to find in PAL-versions.

The sellers are asking for around 250-300€ for AG-7500 here. I find that a bit too much for a deck without built-in (line) TBC.

Does the AG735x output native NTSC or PAL60 when playing NTSC?

[2Bdecided]

Not much point buying from US if you live in Europe - unless you want a native NTSC (only) machine.

There are lots of S-VHS machines in Germany it seems - far more than here in the UK. (Comparing eBay at least!)

Cheers,
David.

[Ghitulescu]

Yes, the Ag735x is native NTSC and PAL.
In Germany you'll also find lots of NTSC profi VCRs, you know, from used NATO equipments. ;)

[Ghitulescu]

Ok, some advice if I may:

High End JVCs are really good. However if you activate NR you'll also have the TBC on, and vice-versa, I was told. Not a big deal since you have an external TBC, because you can capture RAW and do the corrections in avisynth/vdub. If you can afford get the BRS versions (or at least the SR).

Pannies HS-series are also very good, here TBC and 3D filters can work independently. HS8000 seems to be the crème-de-la-crème, hard to find, expensive when found, then come HS1000, 950, 800 (don't get the 900). AG are to be preferred if you can find ones. AG7750 is the top of the top for Panasonic.

As for Sony I have little experience, actually I never owned a Sony VCR. The SV* versions seems to be the professional ones, if you have a TBC then don't bother to get the *MD ones (medicine line, used in various labs, mostly for birth/ultrasonic videos).

Don't forget that many German brand VCRs are actually JVC/Pannies, like Grundig (mostly Pan), Telefunken (mostly JVC) or Metz (mostly Pan).

Now, for an end user the extra dB a profi VCR would bring is not so relevant (normal good VCR has 43-44dB, profi Pan/JVC/Sony some 45 for PAL, or 46 for NTSC), important is the versatility. My old J35 Panny has exactly the same mechanic as my AG7600 (one version older), however the AG can do instantly any command while the J35 needs some time to react.

Now, the drum. Except for the brakes, the drum is the most wearable subpart of a VCR. A good quality drum would hold for about 3000h (any profi VCR has a counter, some have 2), maybe more, you can even have 8000h but you'll loose the fine details of the image. Changing the drum could be expensive, so make sure you'll get a VCR at max. 1000h so you can have at least 2000h "free". Expect to pay some 250€ for a drum ass'y when needed.

So, bottom line, if you can get a good deal on a profi VCR jump for it.

[dannotto]

High End JVCs are really good. However if you activate 3D noise reduction and/or vertical synch you'll loose TBC, and vice-versa. Not a big deal since you have an external TBC. If you can afford get the BRS versions (or at least the SR).

JVC TBC work together with DNR. If you hit the button you set both on or both off. These two functions don`t work separately.
At Panasonic DNR and TBC can be activated separately.

[Emulgator]

And if you are willing to open your VCR
(I did this with 2 of mine, won't use these anymore for recordings anyway):

The tape mentioned in the beginning may have been recorded (besides tracking offset)
with a non-matching video-audio head "X" distance.
Here a control signal is derived to have a auto-tracking reference.

If the tape is worth it, you can tune your VCR to the tape.

0.: Mark all screws, make a drawing.

First the tape path.
Tape should have tight edges throughout its running path.
Often levers are bent towards their inner side, you may bend these back a tiny bit.

The video drum has two tape posts before and after,
do not touch these yet.

(Only if a properly recorded tape would not be manually trackable aroung the mid of control range,
then you may start to move the right post (after the drum), not more than 1/2 turn cw/ccw.)

Besides of audio head gap angle tuning you can move audio head along the tape by roughly one millimeter.
Some VCRs use a coned screw for that (SONY).


1.: Select Standard (not HiFi) Audio.
2.: You may fine-tune audio gap angle first until you hear good highs.
3.. Disable auto-tracking.
4.: Track manually to have a good picture.
5.: Do not care about the audio.
6.. Now choose HiFi audio manually.
7.: Listen. Move that coned screw until switching noise/or audio blanking disappears.
8.: If auto-tracking kicks in and after still HiFi-audio track has switching noise, repeat.
In most cases you should be able to find a position where you can have video and HiFi audio ok.
In very hard cases this may be impossible. Use Standard audio for capturing then and equalize.
9.: Readjust audio head gap angle listening to Standard audio.

This effects video tracking as well, so be patient.

[Ghitulescu]

On my HR-DVS1 there are 2 items, one is TBC, the other is 3D or 3R noise reduction. These options can be separately activate bzw. deactivated, also BEST can independently be de/activated. I thought it's the same in all high end decks from JVC. I'll modify the post accordingly.

[dannotto]

Because TBC and DNR at JVC share the same memory they can`t work separately. For all JVC VCR with DigiPure tehnology there is only one button for both (TBC and DNR). Usually is located on the front side but can be also find in the menu.
Digital 3R is another feature for VHS tapes, edge enhancement. This function is not chained with TBC/DNR.
Good explanation about JVC features are on DigitalFaq site:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-playback-hardware.htm

[Ghitulescu]

Because TBC and DNR at JVC share the same memory they can`t work separately. For all JVC VCR with DigiPure tehnology there is only one button for both (TBC and DNR). Usually is located on the front side but can be also find in the menu.
Digital 3R is another feature for VHS tapes, edge enhancement. This function is not chained with TBC/DNR.
Good explanation about JVC features are on DigitalFaq site:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-playback-hardware.htm

Thank you the web site, I knew it once, but fell into oblivion as I use the JVC only for its MiniDV part to save my camcorder. A good opinion indeed. I've checked my JVC, for DigiPure decks there's indeed a single option for TBC and NR, and another one with 3R, thus my confusion with NR. Thank you for sorting it out.