Dailymotion started Html5 Theora Beta Portal [Archive]

CruNcher

30th May 2009, 18:29

http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/

also they previewing what can be done via JS, HTML5 , CSS3, SVG and animated PNG with a Demoplayer Interface here
http://www.dailymotion.com/openvideodemo

very nice stuff everything done without any flash :) also nice is the capability to switch between flash and HTML5 you gonna immediately realize that the HTML5 content continues playback where you left it (never saw this in a flash based player) :)

Of course this only works with a HTML5 Standard conform Browser no go with IE ;)

Though Fullscreen seems not possible guess their is no scaling yet ;)
also CPU usage is relatively high for the Size of the playbacked content imho to high (Firefox 3.5 nightly) and theres no Theora HD Demo yet though with this high CPU usage it would need even higher requirements then it already does (hopefully decoding speed gets more optimized and multithreaded in the future) :)

Astrophizz

30th May 2009, 20:08

I use the Opera 10 snapshot.... I wish they allowed other HTML 5 browsers besides Firefox 3.5 to view the site. Bad user agent string filtering.

iwod

1st June 2009, 04:43

Yes, which is why i think Theora sucks.... ( But please prove me wrong. )

Brazil2

1st June 2009, 19:10

And Youtube too:
http://www.youtube.com/html5

hellfred

2nd June 2009, 23:26

also CPU usage is relatively high for the Size of the playbacked content imho to high (Firefox 3.5 nightly)

AFAIK the theora decoder in the Firefox nighlies are compiled without the MMX SIMD instruction, they have just the plain C routines. I hope that they will introduce some sort of runtime CPU detection (like e. g. mplayer has) to enable the SIMD instructions in the browser.

Hellfred

CruNcher

3rd June 2009, 20:03

Hehe yeah seems like im not the only one recognizing something is odd here ;)
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1277695

other problem is when you start Process Explorer while a video is playing then the video gets unsync (changing the windows timer)
so the whole player is still a very unstable thing for Windows yet (tried this in both Shiretoko and Minefield on XP)

St Devious

11th June 2009, 04:59

not familiar with this.

What is special about this video implementation ?

I saw Google demo HTML 5 with utilizing the hardware directly to enable 3d rich games to be played in a browser or other highly complex applications, IIRC.

smok3

11th June 2009, 11:12

and i had a mock-up up on web back at march, i'am so cool;
http://somestuff.org/theora/ed.htm
(i'am sure theora has improved since that time, so don't judge the video quality)

St Devious: easy to use, browser integration, OS, ect, for basics this is all one needs:
<video src="ed.ogg" controls="true" autoplay>
Your browser does not support the <code>video</code> element.
</video>

benwaggoner

11th June 2009, 17:01

and i had a mock-up up on web back at march, i'am so cool;
http://somestuff.org/theora/ed.htm
(i'am sure theora has improved since that time, so don't judge the video quality)
the ffmpeg2theora Thusnelda 0.2.4 was released March 12, and I haven't seen anything more recent.

Quality is improved, and speed about doubled.

St Devious: easy to use, browser integration, OS, ect, for basics this is all one needs:
<video src="ed.ogg" controls="true" autoplay>
Your browser does not support the <code>video</code> element.
</video>
What happens if the user is running Safari 4, which has <video> but not Theora?

benwaggoner

11th June 2009, 17:05

Oops, I take it back. libtheora 1.1 alpha 2 is actually out.

...updating my tests...

Ritsuka

12th June 2009, 06:54

What happens if the user is running Safari 4, which has <video> but not Theora?

It doesn't play. Unless you install the XiphQT plugin for QuickTime.
So in the end if you want cross-browser compatibility you will still need to ask the users to download a plugin or make multiple versions of the video.

benwaggoner

12th June 2009, 07:25

It doesn't play. Unless you install the XiphQT plugin for QuickTime.
So in the end if you want cross-browser compatibility you will still need to ask the users to download a plugin or make multiple versions of the video.
...and as long as we're having someone install plugins, what's the point?

And if we're going to have someone install a plugin, why not have someone install a H.264 plugin instead :).

hellfred

12th June 2009, 09:48

the ffmpeg2theora Thusnelda 0.2.4 was released March 12, and I haven't seen anything more recent.
For the latest and greatest, have a look here (http://firefogg.org/nightly/).
At the time of writing this message, one can get ffmpeg2theora builds dated from June 2nd (windows) and June 10th (linux).
I am eagerly awaiting the next updated of the thusnelda encoder with improved quantization matrices (demo7 (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo7.html)).

Hellfred.

Leeloo Minaï

12th June 2009, 12:14

It doesn't play. Unless you install the XiphQT plugin for QuickTime.
So in the end if you want cross-browser compatibility you will still need to ask the users to download a plugin or make multiple versions of the video.

I don't understand, Theora is not the standard video codec chosen for the <video> element ?

smok3

12th June 2009, 12:19

yes, mac's are really known to be open source friendly, what is your point exactly?

Ritsuka

12th June 2009, 13:19

I don't understand, Theora is not the standard video codec chosen for the <video> element ?

No it's not. The html5 draft does not specify a video or audio codec.

Leeloo Minaï

12th June 2009, 13:23

My question was ironical...

Keiyakusha

12th June 2009, 14:00

And Youtube too:
http://www.youtube.com/html5

What should be there? With Firefox 3.5b99 I see only couple of black rectangles there. Nothing is working.

tofans

12th June 2009, 15:40

With Firefox 3.5b99 I see only couple of black rectangles there. Nothing is working.
I think that is because YouTube is embedding H.264 Video in their HTML5 demo. Currently only Ogg-Theora support has been implemented in Firefox and it's unlikely that we'll see official H.264 support in Firefox any time soon.

CruNcher

12th June 2009, 22:00

Mozilla needs todo something really fast about the Theora Decoder performance i test it on a Atom Diamondville Z510 and the Performance is slideshow compared to Flash and H.264 (Youtube) Video Playback

tofans

12th June 2009, 23:22

Yes, Theora performance in Firefox is pretty bad right now, on my linux box an average non-HD theora movie trailer consumes ~80% cpu-time using Firefox, whereas the same trailer just needs ~30% cpu-time to decode in Arora.

Dark Shikari

12th June 2009, 23:32

Keiyakusha

17th June 2009, 16:00

I just installed Firefox 3.5 RC1 and don't see any improvements in decoding speed...

BTW I have read somewhere that Chrome comes bundled with FFMPEG. Does that means it can decode anything that FFMPEG can and not just h264 and theora?

Sharktooth

17th June 2009, 16:26

exactly

benwaggoner

17th June 2009, 17:05

exactly
Although Chrome doesn't show DailyMotion for me.

Keiyakusha

17th June 2009, 17:24

Although Chrome doesn't show DailyMotion for me.
Isn't this because Dailymotion checks the browser and allows only Firefox 3.5?

IgorC

17th June 2009, 18:14

Google Chrome 3.0.187.1 (dev build) works fine with Theora videos.

neoufo51

2nd July 2009, 09:55

Ugh, Theora needs work. It awful on FF 3.5. You can view it but its painfully worse than Flash video, performance wise.

benwaggoner

2nd July 2009, 09:58

Ugh, Theora needs work. It awful on FF 3.5. You can view it but its painfully worse than Flash video, performance wise.
Not surprising. It seems like the Mozilla guys talk about Ogg support as "adding codecs" when it's really about "building and integrating a media pipeline into an existing browser rendering model"

Compiling in a codec lib is a rounding error of the total effort :).

CruNcher

5th July 2009, 21:49

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=498770

use minefield it should be fixed there

Dark Shikari

5th July 2009, 22:01

Fun facts I heard from a friend who looked at the code:

1) Firefox forces conversion to RGB on playback
2) Firefox has at least 2 full-framesize calloc calls per frame

benwaggoner

5th July 2009, 23:00

Fun facts I heard from a friend who looked at the code:

1) Firefox forces conversion to RGB on playback
Well, that's going to be inevitable; they need to take the video back into the browser's compositing engine. HTML5 allows other stuff to be rendered on top of the video, and that's all going to be RGB.

Maybe if they move to a OpenGL/DWM/DirectX rendering model on the GPU someday they could punt color space conversion to that.

Ah, it's going to be fun to watch Mozilla recapitulate a couple of decades of media pipeline development :). I wonder how they're going to deal with A/V sync, decoder pipeline buffering, etcetera. Theora doesn't have B-frames, so every frame needs to be decoded.

Google has it much easier by just sucking in ffmpeg wholesale, where all that pipeline stuff has had years of refinement.

2) Firefox has at least 2 full-framesize calloc calls per frame
The decoded YV12 frame and then its RGB conversion?

St Devious

6th July 2009, 04:04

Fun facts I heard from a friend who looked at the code:

1) Firefox forces conversion to RGB on playback
2) Firefox has at least 2 full-framesize calloc calls per frame

no knowledge on this subject. is that a bad thing ?

Gokumon

6th July 2009, 17:43

no knowledge on this subject. is that a bad thing ?

Performance and memory-wise it could be.

lych_necross

7th July 2009, 07:08

It seems that Ogg Theora has been dropped from the HTML5 specs. This article (http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,62055739,00.htm?scid=rss_z_nw) has more info. It looks like we will have to wait a bit longer for wide spread adoption of Theora unfortunately :(

Dark Shikari

7th July 2009, 07:15

More fun facts from IRC today:

06:29 <@Compn> mozilla can just link in a script/extension to install ffmpeg h264 decoder and thats that :P
06:29 <@Compn> but i'm tired of this html5 talk already
06:29 <@Yuvi> if only, their decoding pipeline is tied into liboggplay
06:30 <@Yuvi> so they can't support anything but theora without rewriting a good portion of it
06:30 <@Dark_Shikari> they didn't even use gstreamer?
06:30 <@mru> gun, meet foot

Sharktooth

7th July 2009, 14:08

lych_necross

8th July 2009, 07:23

benwaggoner

8th July 2009, 07:36

there is always dirac... however i feel apple and the "other" friends will push against royalty-free formats...
Oh, I'm sure everyone would happily adopt Theora if it was as much better than H.264 as H.264 is actually better than Theora.

But if you're Apple or Nokia, you've got an efficient codec with good hardware support in your current devices in H.264. All Theora support would do for them is fragment the mobile ecosystem, and if it caught on, increase their bandwidth costs.

Theora may solve problems for Mozillia, but doesn't for Apple, Nokia, Google, etcetera. Theora's succes wouldn't be a big threat or anything, but it would be an incremental hassle.

Personally, now that we're getting Raw AV in Silverlight 3, I suppose it'd be a net competitive gain for my stuff beacause we could do Theora in Silverlight while Flash couldn't. But it doesn't really solve any problems I work on either. I'd be happy to have someone implement Ogg on Silverlight, of course, but it'd not on my redball list.

I actually have no idea what the IE guys think about this, so in no way take this as any Microsoft policy on this stuff; to the extent anyone besides me has one, I'm out of the loop :).

benwaggoner

8th July 2009, 07:39

I forgot about dirac... but with the w3c dropping the video codec stuff from HTML5, it seems that they have lost their relevance. Whats the point of ratifying a new specification if the browser companies decide not to support it and do what they want. About dirac, I don't think any browsers support natively.
Is there any reason to look at Dirac over Theora?

AFAIK, Theora is in the same ballpark for compression efficiency, and is faster on encode and decode. And probably would remain faster on decode architecturally. Given that a new codec would have to be mainly software decode for its first year of popularity until ASICs catch up. that's an important factor.

cdouble

9th July 2009, 00:03

That's because Mozilla compiled it without assembly code :rolleyes:The Theora assembly code is enabled on Linux and Mac OS X builds. It was disabled on Windows due to a bug in the MSVC version of the assembly code. This has been fixed on trunk builds of Firefox.

RNiK

10th July 2009, 15:31

More fun facts from IRC today:
Bug 422540 - GStreamer backend for HTML5 video element (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422540) ;)

cdouble

14th July 2009, 00:02

Bug 422540 - GStreamer backend for HTML5 video element (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422540) ;)There are also directshow and quicktime backends:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435298
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435339

These two have suffered quite a bit of bitrot and won't build now but they used to work. I originally wrote the GStreamer backend and it's now being developed further by the mobile team for possible use in Fennec.

Leak

14th July 2009, 08:31

Considering my recent experience with Street Fighter 4 which simply crashed at the intro video because I had ffdshow set as the DirectShow WMV decoder (which took me a few hours to find out - and the exact same WMV files play just fine in MPC-HC with ffdshow) I'm not so sure if using any random DirectShow codec a user happens to have installed in the browser is such a good idea...

lucassp

14th July 2009, 09:23

The Theora assembly code is enabled on Linux and Mac OS X builds.

I tested it on a PowerBook G4@1,66GHz and it plays better than youtube, and the CPU load is ~86%.

CruNcher

14th July 2009, 12:58

Lucky guy we compared on a Atom Z510 and it was crazy Adobe Flash Player and even the higher Quality Videos on Youtube play more smooth then virtually any of the theora Demos (Win32) :(
not to speak about firefox problems when having multiple tabs open (with flash, which is a common user scenario these days based on advertising for example) and trying to playback multimedia focused on 1 tab (video stucks every x seconds because firefox continusly utilizes cpu time) :(
Hopefully Firefox 4 (better separated thread management) will solve these Multimedia in Browser Prioritization Problems :), the browser needs todo more tasks like the OS does it that's still problematic if you have 4 tabs open with flash and 1 tab you are focused (playing back a video) you could expect Firefox to be so smart and giving that tab (and the inside running plugin) a higher priority then but that doesn't work yet only Chrome shows some interesting stuff here (they must have done alot of Youtube research based on these scenarios).

cdouble

15th July 2009, 00:03

CruNcher, does your Atom based machine have hardware support for decoding? I've had feedback from Atom users with no hardware support saying the Theora playback is at least as good as flash.

That said I am targeting performance on Atom level machines in my current performance work.

I agree about the thread things you mention. Because of browser architecture where everything is usually done on the main thread there are issues where lots of tabs open with busy sites using JavaScript cause video glitches. The main threads gets busy processing the JavaScript for the other tabs and the video events get starved.