G'bye 3rd Party ASP/AVC Filters in WMP/MCE on Win7?

[squid_80]

Most people wouldn't install codec packs if they could play out of the box.
Snap. Right there is the reason why the "we're protecting users from themselves" excuse does not hold up. MS has given the customer a solution and additionally made sure it is the only one usable. Imagine the outcry if they blocked Firefox from being used as the default web browser, simply because it's possible to install plugins that crash every time you open it.

benwaggoner, how are CoreCodec and DivX meant to explain to people who have previously purchased their filters and used them under XP and Vista without issue that they won't work in win 7 unless they additionally install and use a media player that includes functionality to explicitly select the filter used for decoding?

[nm]

Player yes, but i still dont have a choice to let my player of choice use the decoder I choose. AFAIK Win7 will default to using its own decoders no matter what player i choose, except whe i use a player with build-in decoders. So only switching player wont do if you'd like to use CoreAVC for instance.
It depends on how the player uses DirectShow: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1283085#post1283085
Advanced DirectShow players support (or will support, if Windows 7 behaves like this) custom graphs so they can use 3rd party decoders in place of Microsoft's implementations.

[Doom9]

1) Use another player (there are tons of alternative players) You're mistaken on that.. any DirectShow based player that doesn't has its own graph building mechanism is affected... meaning basically every player but MPC (HC).
Isn't this how VLC and Mplayer work? Both those players are not DirectShow based - they are completely self contained (if they were DirectShow based you wouldn't see them running on different platforms).

[BetaBoy]

benwaggoner, how are CoreCodec and DivX meant to explain to people who have previously purchased their filters and used them under XP and Vista without issue that they won't work in win 7 unless they additionally install and use a media player that includes functionality to explicitly select the filter used for decoding?
Even more to the point.... how is MS going to handle the backlash from all of the current Retail/OEM solutions (software+hardware), that provide those one-off 'bundled services' that utilize custom directshow filters for their solution? (Especially since most of them are now just adding/starting to migrate/release to AVC/AAC now)

[ChronoCross]

You're mistaken on that.. any DirectShow based player that doesn't has its own graph building mechanism is affected... meaning basically every player but MPC (HC).
Both those players are not DirectShow based - they are completely self contained (if they were DirectShow based you wouldn't see them running on different platforms).

This problem only affects Windows Media Player AFAIK. Even if it affects all directshow related there are still a few players stated earlier in this thread that are functional in windows 7 using custom filters such as CoreAVC.

I know the players don't use directshow....that was a sad point to point out. I was basing it mostly on the fact that those players don't give you a choice of decoder either.

People are only angry about this because there are existing third party filters that they use and that has been taken away. it's not the premise that windows media player uses it's own internal filters over all others.

[BaRRoS]

People are only angry about this because there are existing third party filters that they use and that has been taken away. it's not the premise that windows media player uses it's own internal filters over all others.
If WMP uses it's own filters, then people's third party filters are taken away....

After reading all this thread I'm now curious how Win7 Media Center will handle my media with it's internal codecs, but i'm going to install the RC on my 5 year old PC and test x264 playback in media center before I start bashing MS for having a slow decoder and not letting me install CoreCodec.

[CruNcher]

Yes, theoretically you can uninstall WMP. Yes, theoretically you can use an alternative player. But will the average user do that? Nope. And this is something they know very well!
Sorry but what ? you say that things like Firefox wouldn't have worked but it's wrong you just have to deliver a interesting enough solution to the masses like Mozilla did, for example DivX own Player is never gonna win a Price and doesn't deliver what Firefox for example vs IE8 delivers so with a bad non mass friendly application you won't win the majority of hearts that you need to compete.


Even more to the point.... how is MS going to handle the backlash from all of the current Retail/OEM solutions (software+hardware), that provide those one-off 'bundled services' that utilize custom directshow filters for their solution? (Especially since most of them are now just adding/starting to migrate/release to AVC/AAC now)

Not much backlash to expect there, many ISVs began years ago to change their Applications and shutoff their Core from inside interfering (using their own Graph building, some also do direct calling based on different criteria) many go as far that even outside usage isn't allowed anymore (or sell this as another solution for WMP, which obviously is now dead on Win7) it won't hurt Cyberlink, Arcsoft or Nero all have their Private ecosystem by now and now it seems we can add Microsoft WMP to that list too.
So yeah hard times for for many ISVs that only live from selling Codecs for the WMP crowd without having their own Player as sad as it is.
All this happened because Directshow failed what was once thought of to be a super flexible framework ended up in a support and interoperability horror for many with the time more and more filter started to interact on a machine the DLL Hell scenario repeated it became "Directshow Hell" it got out of control :)
Now many ISVs decision then was to close out all problematic areas and so the flexibility in the commercial world at least is dead by now, this is what happened over the last years im somewhat surprised to see that many missed that development it seems.

[Brother John]

They are still giving the consumer a choice much in the same way that I can install firefox as an IE replacement.
Actually they are *taking away* a choice that used to be there. That alone is something worthy of discussion. In this special case however it’s even worse. Effectively what’s happening is MS using their monopoly power in one market (OS) to stifle competition in another market (media playback). This is certainly very intentional. MS is not *that* incompetent to overlook such a huge issue! And they’ve got a history of usng the same strategy.

[ChronoCross]

Actually they are *taking away* a choice that used to be there. That alone is something worthy of discussion. In this special case however it’s even worse. Effectively what’s happening is MS using their monopoly power in one market (OS) to stifle competition in another market (media playback). This is certainly very intentional. MS is not *that* incompetent to overlook such a huge issue! And they’ve got a history of usng the same strategy.

I really hate it when people say that Microsoft is using a monopoly in every decision they make.

How many commercial filters can you name that don't have their own independent playback solution? I currently can only name coreavc (which is also included in their own COREPLAYER).

Yes ffdshow is getting pwned like a bunch of n00bs in this arrangement. Sure some people won't like it but it's not illegal and there are plenty of options open for people who don't want to use windows media player. If you use windows media player your just going to have to accept it's faults.

[DigitAl56K]

This problem only affects Windows Media Player AFAIK.

It depends. I'm still waiting for Microsoft to publish details of how the IMFTopoLoader::Load (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms693561(VS.85).aspx) is going to prioritize transforms (e.g. 3rd party vs Microsoft) without a custom implementation or wrapper class. If anyone has seen any documentation perhaps they can point me to it. Here's an example of the documentation they provide for DirectShow's Intelligent Connect (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd390342(VS.85).aspx).

Edit: I found this has been added to the Intelligent Connect page..

4. Starting in Windows 7, DirectShow has a list of preferred filters for certain media subtypes. If there is a preferred filter for the media type that is being rendered, the Filter Graph Manager tries that filter next. An application can modify the list of preferred filters by using the IAMPluginControl interface. Changes to the list affect the application's current process, and are discarded after the process ends.

Preferred lists in step 4 are checked before filter merit in step 5.

[DigitAl56K]

The preferred list for DirectShow seems to be maintained here:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\DirectShow\Preferred

Perhaps I misunderstood the thread earlier, but I was under the impression that the preferences were limited to Media Foundation only. In the RC I notice that when I use GraphEdt or GraphStudio for ASP content a Microsoft DMO is being attached to the AVI splitter even though I have an ASP DirectShow Filter decoder with higher merit on the system (which I can connect manually). Is this the expected behavior?

[ChronoCross]

I'm kind of surprised about the utter lack of information from two major media companies (DivX and CoreCodec). It really seems like neither party has done much in way of looking at Windows 7 Beta's.

Is there any communication between you guys and Microsoft at all?

[73ChargerFan]

Microsoft dropped this bomb, around 7 weeks ago - it was not in the public beta, and was not announced as one of their "improvements." Read the first page of this thread.

[DigitAl56K]

If we were not looking at the beta we could not have recently released the tech preview. We do not necessarily know every detail before the rest of the world though. I've been following this thread since it started and discussing the points that interest me from a personal perspective, which I've stated many times.

[G_M_C]

Hypothetical;
What if i just delete the Ms codecs from my system folder ? (delete the file "abcdefg.ax" for instance). Then those codecs wont ever be choosen, or is this a very much too simplified way ;)

[clsid]

The preferred list for DirectShow seems to be maintained here:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\DirectShow\Preferred

Perhaps I misunderstood the thread earlier, but I was under the impression that the preferences were limited to Media Foundation only. In the RC I notice that when I use GraphEdt or GraphStudio for ASP content a Microsoft DMO is being attached to the AVI splitter even though I have an ASP DirectShow Filter decoder with higher merit on the system (which I can connect manually). Is this the expected behavior?
Yes, that is expected behavior.

I have posted a tool for changing the preferred filters here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146910

It currently only supports H.264, allowing to switch to ffdshow, CoreAVC or DivX H.264 decoder. I will add other mediatypes later, maybe this weekend.

[BetaBoy]

I'm kind of surprised about the utter lack of information from two major media companies (DivX and CoreCodec). It really seems like neither party has done much in way of looking at Windows 7 Beta's.

Is there any communication between you guys and Microsoft at all?

CC.... If you read through here at D9 and the threads with Albain we have looked at the Pre-RC's and the RC itself for Win7. Some things are more implied then documented at this point as DigitAl56K has said. Microsoft has been contacting us through the Matroska mailing list on and off as I mentioned earlier in this thread (but they can contacted me directly: betaboy AT corecodec DOT com .

As far as clsid tool.... it does what MS indicated to do, and its a nice tool to have 'now'. But that type of feature needs to be added within the splitter/codecs themselves and as clsid noted it does not affect Media Foundation at all, and this is the fundamental discussion on this thread (well that and the priority of the preferred codecs, ie; DS Vs. MF).

I'd also like to note that we are all learning here in about the capabilities of what is possible, so we remain open minded.... and thank Ben for sticking around ;-)

[ChronoCross]

Hypothetical;
What if i just delete the Ms codecs from my system folder ? (delete the file "abcdefg.ax" for instance). Then those codecs wont ever be choosen, or is this a very much too simplified way ;)

your system will probably blue screen if you start doing stupid things like that.

CC.... If you read through here at D9 and the threads with Albain we have looked at the Pre-RC's and the RC itself for Win7. Some things are more implied then documented at this point as DigitAl56K has said. Microsoft has been contacting us through the Matroska mailing list on and off as I mentioned earlier in this thread (but they can contacted me directly: betaboy AT corecodec DOT com .



Microsoft doesn't have some sort of official contact other than a mailing list? Seems kind of unprofessional.


As far as clsid tool.... it does what MS indicated to do, and its a nice tool to have 'now'. But that type of feature needs to be added within the codecs themselves and as clsid noted it does not affect Media Foundation at all, and this is the fundamental discussion on this thread (well that and the priority of the preferred codecs).


Until someone writes the "Ultimate codec pack" which overwrites every internal filter to media foundation. They might as well just go back to exclusive directshow use if it's going to be easy to change codec priorities.

Although it'll be interesting to watch codecs duke it out for control.

P.S. Corecodec is missing a great opportunity to push their coreplayer technologies. If only it had AC3 it might be a player I could consider purchasing.

[clsid]

your system will probably blue screen if you start doing stupid things like that.
Instead of making silly and wrong guesses maybe you should stfu until you have got something sane to say.

[BetaBoy]

P.S. Corecodec is missing a great opportunity to push their coreplayer technologies. If only it had AC3 it might be a player I could consider purchasing.

Not to get too OT.... but 2.0 is around the corner and we have now added Directshow support for Windows Mobile and Windows... so add your favorite AC3 filter ;-)... oh and for OS X we added support for the native Audio Queue codecs (like AC3). So we now have multiple codec layers: Internal, DMO, Directshow, and Audio Queue (no less hardware accelerated ones as well).

[ChronoCross]

Instead of making silly and wrong guesses maybe you should stfu until you have got something sane to say.

yeah because lord knows deleting dll's is a smart thing to do. Guess that's why computer repair companies are still in business.

Sorry that you seem so insulted you found it necessary to blurt out "STFU" just because I don't agree with your whiny argument on how ffdshow is so awesome and media foundation and WMP are screwing it over. Next time I'll remember to just fall in line with random microsoft outrage.

[benwaggoner]

Microsoft doesn't have some sort of official contact other than a mailing list? Seems kind of unprofessional.
We have a whole lot of mechanisms we work with ecosystem partners on.

Anyone actually working on software produdcts this impacts and who don't have any direct contacts with Microsoft, feel free to PM me and I'll see if I can track down an appropriate contact for whatever issue you've got.

[G_M_C]

yeah because lord knows deleting dll's is a smart thing to do. Guess that's why computer repair companies are still in business.

Sorry that you seem so insulted you found it necessary to blurt out "STFU" just because I don't agree with your whiny argument on how ffdshow is so awesome and media foundation and WMP are screwing it over. Next time I'll remember to just fall in line with random microsoft outrage.

I'm not that stupid; I'll research the correct filename, delete the codec only, and than run a registry cleanup removing unlinked/unreferenced codecs. Works fine on XP also, when used as a last resort. Never had a blue screen since i stopped using Win 98SE, and my current system has an install-time of several years now. So please do not patronize me ...

[clsid]

yeah because lord knows deleting dll's is a smart thing to do. Guess that's why computer repair companies are still in business.

Sorry that you seem so insulted you found it necessary to blurt out "STFU" just because I don't agree with your whiny argument on how ffdshow is so awesome and media foundation and WMP are screwing it over. Next time I'll remember to just fall in line with random microsoft outrage.
You need to get your facts straight. I never ever said anything in this topic about ffdshow being awesome. I never said that randomly deleting dlls is a good idea. I only said that your BSOD remark is total nonsense. So STFU indeed.

[ChronoCross]

I'm not that stupid; I'll research the correct filename, delete the codec only, and than run a registry cleanup removing unlinked/unreferenced codecs. Works fine on XP also, when used as a last resort. Never had a blue screen since i stopped using Win 98SE, and my current system has an install-time of several years now. So please do not patronize me ...

I'll patronize you because your talking about doing something on an OS you have never used nor do you even know the full extent of the possible damage that it could do. Your pretty much saying that hey since it worked before I might as well do it now. That's a piss poor way of administering a system.


You need to get your facts straight. I never ever said anything in this topic about ffdshow being awesome. I never said that randomly deleting dlls is a good idea. I only said that your BSOD remark is total nonsense. So STFU indeed.

the ffdshow is the only free 3rd party codec really being discussed so I used it as a generalization for your argument. I'll use "third party codec x" from now on.

Also how is a BSOD nonsense. it is a perfect possibility if someone goes dicking around with system files. Who knows at this point what consequences could follow, hell even if it results in WMP crashing it's still an unintended result. So please don't tell me to STFU based on your thought that a BSOD might be absolutely absurd when it is still a possibility.

[BetaBoy]

How ironic/funny I got a BSOD when messing with the registry for WMP/DS on Win7 today. Yes, I did submit a crash report on it ;-)

[G_M_C]

I'll patronize you because your talking about doing something on an OS you have never used nor do you even know the full extent of the possible damage that it could do. Your pretty much saying that hey since it worked before I might as well do it now. That's a piss poor way of administering a system.
[...]
even if it results in WMP crashing it's still an unintended result.[...]

That would not be a problem. I'm in the EU, and EU versions are forced to have WMP as an option.

Deleting + cleaning from registry is actually more,- or less the same thing as an uninstall-programm would do; Only you do it "by hand". But originally it was a question if this was even possible, not a question about the possible things that you think might happen as a consequence.

[ChronoCross]

That would not be a problem. I'm in the EU, and EU versions are forced to have WMP as an option.


Glad I don't live in the EU. Eventually the only windows your going to have is Windows 7 command line edition because someone in the EU is going to complain that Microsoft is using their monopoly to force you to use their GUI.


Deleting + cleaning from registry is actually more,- or less the same thing as an uninstall-programm would do; Only you do it "by hand". But originally it was a question if this was even possible, not a question about the possible things that you think might happen as a consequence.

Sure you can remove the dll's. You can technically delete the entire Windows directory. But then again if you think about the potential problems that it might cause, might make you think twice. You should always think about the consequences of every action. Just asking if something is possible would be rather flawed.

[G_M_C]

Glad I don't live in the EU. Eventually the only windows your going to have is Windows 7 command line edition because someone in the EU is going to complain that Microsoft is using their monopoly to force you to use their GUI.
[...]

No, dont think so.Think we get a possibillity on an "advanced option" during install, where you can select the options you need/like. If you dont plan on using IE, but FF; Dont install IE. Likewise you can de-select WMP when you plan on using MPC-HT and so forth.

You get less clutter on you HDD's, and more choice. Dont mind both at all.

Might be useful for sysops too; Why install AVC codecs if your employees are supposed to use your own proprietary system for writing letters ? Helps you in making shure they do their task in stead of watching youtube (other than firewall measures). In other words, you get a more versatile system, with more control over the features you need/want/use; More tailored to your situation.

I'm all for this.

[Dark Shikari]

And the game is up.

Sorry, Microsoft, your decoder sucks. (http://www.cccp-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=3547.0)

You can no longer claim that it benefits us to use your decoder because it is "better" when it cannot play 1080p H.264 on a Quad-core Phenom II Black Edition 3.2Ghz.

And now your decoder is (blatantly illegally) hijacking playback throughout Windows 7. I suspect the rest of the world will have no choice but to actively break your decoders in order to provide useful media playback.

How am I not surprised?

[kumi]

Add an option "Thanks, I'm an advanced user and know what I'm doing. Now unlock this player and use the decoders I want to use."

That's a reasonable general approach. The trick would be to make sure it's something the user could opt into but that could be something any authenticated app could silently set.

Here's an idea.

During playback, if a DirectShow decoder is registered for the same mediatype a MediaFoundation decoder is supposed to handle, pop-up a confirmation dialog upon loading the video: "WMP has detected you have untested third-party decoders installed for this media type. Do you wish to use the default WMP decoders instead? Yes(default)/No"

The dialog would only appear for users that have dared to install third-party decoders. A tiny minority, if Microsoft really does deliver with a reliable and comprehensive set of MediaFoundation decoders. I believe most users will attempt to install codecs only when playback goes wrong.

Don't be greedy, Microsoft: you can make your decoders the best they can be AND allow third-parties to play in the game when your stuff doesn't work.

[ChronoCross]

And the game is up.

Sorry, Microsoft, your decoder sucks. (http://www.cccp-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=3547.0)

You can no longer claim that it benefits us to use your decoder because it is "better" when it cannot play 1080p H.264 on a Quad-core Phenom II Black Edition 3.2Ghz.

And now your decoder is (blatantly illegally) hijacking playback throughout Windows 7. I suspect the rest of the world will have no choice but to actively break your decoders in order to provide useful media playback.

How am I not surprised?

I'd be more impressed with that thread if he wasn't using illegally downloaded material as reference for "jerky playback".

[Snowknight26]

The decoder also seems to force the use of hardware acceleration for H.264 videos with more reference frames than L4.1 allows. ATI card, of course.

http://i43.tinypic.com/fp31mv.jpg (http://stfcc.org/misc/windows7ati.png)

[STaRGaZeR]

The decoder also seems to force the use of hardware acceleration for H.264 videos with more reference frames than L4.1 allows. ATI card, of course.

http://i43.tinypic.com/fp31mv.jpg (http://stfcc.org/misc/windows7ati.png)

Like Microsoft's MPEG-2 decoder. I smell a huge failure here.

[ranpha]

And the game is up.

Sorry, Microsoft, your decoder sucks. (http://www.cccp-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=3547.0)

You can no longer claim that it benefits us to use your decoder because it is "better" when it cannot play 1080p H.264 on a Quad-core Phenom II Black Edition 3.2Ghz.

And now your decoder is (blatantly illegally) hijacking playback throughout Windows 7. I suspect the rest of the world will have no choice but to actively break your decoders in order to provide useful media playback.

How am I not surprised?

With my Phenom 9500, I can play 1080p videos just fine with Microsoft H.264 decoder. The link above is just an anecdotal evidence and not a rule.

[benwaggoner]

And the game is up.

Sorry, Microsoft, your decoder sucks. (http://www.cccp-project.net/forums/index.php?topic=3547.0)
How am I not surprised?
If I'm parsing that thread correctly, he's reproducing this problem with ffdshow as well, no?

I think whatever's happening there is a different issue.

Looks like they also figured out a way to make ffdshow work on Win7 with MPC-HD anyway. Nice to see a 3rd party app demonstrating that works.

[Shii]

Found universal solution to disable forced Microsoft H264 codec in WMP12 and WMC.

First, and this is main step, backup and delete key HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\MediaFoundation\Transforms\{62ce7e72-4c71-4d20-b15d-452831a87d9d}
Second, change key value HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\DirectShow\Preferred\{31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71} from {212690FB-83E5-4526-8FD7-74478B7939CD} to preferred h264 decoder ({09571A4B-F1FE-4C60-9760-DE6D310C7C31} for CoreAVC or {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7} for ffdshow)

If you need to allow any other decoders in WMP12/WMC, like ffdshow Audio decoder and AC3Filter, add decoders CLSID to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\MediaPlayer\FilterExceptions (create new keys with decoder CLSID name) and add key 'Capabilities' to needed CLSID`s in HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{083863F1-70DE-11D0-BD40-00A0C911CE86}\Instance This 'Capabilities' key must contain REG_DWORD value with name: {374ac4df-7c98-4257-b13d-36087dbee458} and value: 1

[lexor]

If I'm parsing that thread correctly, he's reproducing this problem with ffdshow as well, no?

I think whatever's happening there is a different issue.

Looks like they also figured out a way to make ffdshow work on Win7 with MPC-HD anyway. Nice to see a 3rd party app demonstrating that works.

What now? Hold on, I thought the justification was that MS doesn't want to support arbitrary number of decoders/etc in their players. Is MPC-HD an MS player? I don't think so (could be wrong, I don't know who develops it). Why was any amount of effort required to get it to work at all?

If something had to be done to make MPC-HD work with FFDShow under Win7RC, that seem to dismiss the claim that the change is just to protect MS players from non-MS decoders.

[ranpha]

What now? Hold on, I thought the justification was that MS doesn't want to support arbitrary number of decoders/etc in their players. Is MPC-HD an MS player? I don't think so (could be wrong, I don't know who develops it). Why was any amount of effort required to get it to work at all?

If something had to be done to make MPC-HD work with FFDShow under Win7RC, that seem to dismiss the claim that the change is just to protect MS players from non-MS decoders.

MPC-HC has their own graph builder, and there are no problem whatsoever using ffdshow with it (works just like it is in Vista or XP).

[lexor]

MPC-HC has their own graph builder, and there are no problem whatsoever using ffdshow with it (works just like it is in Vista or XP).
That is demonstrably false:

First, benwaggoner said that MPC had to be fixed.

Second, I stay with the beta precisely because my friend jumped the gun and went to RC and now MPC+ffdshow is broken. We did get it to connect, but there is no picture only sound (and even that ~30sec delayed). Same exact combo (a series of latest svn builds for both) works out of the box in beta and older windows.

[CruNcher]

Are you absolutely sure lexor ? i mean you have to be ultra sure about this claim (better triple check) as if this would be true and Microsoft has now began to even wider the spectrum of this and that even after being criticized for their "We have to protect our own Apps from evilness and dumb users" move it would be outrageous, though this is still RC not final and maybe Microsoft want's to make people and 3rd partys shaking in their shoes a little (to show them who the boss is) and then on RTM day they gonna say "hey was just a joke" ;)
Though seeing that Win 7 RC is out for a while now and no one else on the .Net saying Microsoft tightened it even more in terms of 3rd party media playback behavior makes me not wanna believe in this story somehow, common sense forbids it ;) i would rather believe they changed something about the Graph building that had a bad effect and now it broke entirely with some filters ;)

[Shakey_Jake33]

I can't say I've had a single problem getting ffdshow (or any other 3rd party codec) to play nice with MPC-HC in Windows 7 RC tbh.

[saint-francis]

Same here. I use FFDShow with MPC HC every day on Windows 7 RC. I haven't tried any other players but I can say for certain that when ever I render any file in graphedit it always uses MS filters.

[benwaggoner]

That is demonstrably false:

First, benwaggoner said that MPC had to be fixed.
If it has its own graph builder, it shouldn't need to be fixed.

I'm getting unclear info here on what is or is not working. If there's an app developer who thinks they should be getting access to 3rd party filters but can't make it work, that's a bug and they should file that on connect or PM me.

Any app developer should be able to use any DirectShow or MFC that they want to in their media pipeline.

Some may require an update to do so, of course.

[Snowknight26]

Why the horrible image quality for Xvid files? It's almost as if the Microsoft decoders are skipping deblocking.

MPC-HC's internal decoder:
http://stfcc.org/misc/sample.MPC-HC.png

WMP12 using Microsoft decoder:
http://stfcc.org/misc/sample.WMP12.png

[Sagekilla]

It looks more like they're going overkill on deblocking and killing fine detail. There's barely any from the WMP decoded one.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Why the horrible image quality for Xvid files? It's almost as if the Microsoft decoders are skipping deblocking.

Xvid uses MPEG-4 ASP. And MPEG-4 ASP does not have any kind of deblocking!

Yes, many MPEG-4 ASP decoders have a deblocking filter. But that is optional post-processing. It's not an integral part of the decoder ;)

Micro$oft's decoder apparently doesn't offer that option. This is yet another reason why allowing the user choose his/her preferred decoder is so important!

As if there weren't enough already :rolleyes:

[clsid]

MPC-HC's internal MPEG-4 ASP decoder uses no deblocking at all. As Sagekilla said, the MS decoder uses too much post-processing, making things look worse.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

MPC-HC's internal MPEG-4 ASP decoder uses no deblocking at all. As Sagekilla said, the MS decoder uses too much post-processing, making things look worse.

No matter whether too much post-processing or missing post-processing is the problem, fact is that MPEG-4 ASP doesn't have any pre-defined deblocking. That's why different MPEG-4 ASP decoders offer different type of post-processing (or no post-processing at all). And we must allow the user to decide what he/she prefers! If the M$ decoder uses a type of post-processing that I don't like, but I cannot easily adjust the decoder's post-processing or choose a different decoder, then that makes the entire player useless for me. Who would use a player that screws up the video?

[Manao]

And we must allow the user to decide what he/she prefers!Not at the cost of complexity. Most of windows users don't even know what deblocking is, so from microsoft's point of view, there is no need to add complexity.

If the M$ decoder uses a type of post-processing that I don't like, but I cannot easily adjust the decoder's post-processing or choose a different decoder, then that makes the entire player useless for me.Indeed, but you have alternatives. Microsoft has alienated you - but you (and me, and most of Doom9 users) are not mainstream users. I do think the lack of configurability was done on purpose, and is the good choice, from MS's point of view.

Who would use a player that screws up the video? Somebody that doesn't know the video is screwed up. Roughly 95% of people. Hell, my parents watch TV with an incorrect aspect ratio, as most people with flat screens do. They have the option not to do so, and they don't use it because it's too complicated.