1-click DVD burning onto BD?

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, there!

I am wondering, would it be possible to burn a DVD onto a BD and end up with a BD that is playable on the computer? Please note that I am talking about a DVD-disc with a DVD-structure and menu, so this means having the same VOB, BUP, and IFO files be on both the source DVD and the intended BD.

I already know that this resulting disc won't be playable on any standalone BD player. But, again, what about playing it on the computer with a BD-ROM tray and software?

Not to waste space and/or money, if this is possible, the final disc should be a 3" BD disc that holds up to 7.5 GB. This enough for, let's say, a 100 minutes or so movie in SD.

Finally, which software can do this...Nero, maybe?

Best,

CAL
D-M

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, e-people!

Nobody has replied to my original question yet, but for the benefit of those following my path, I will reply to myself.

The technical part of my approach appears to be possible by way of an ISO image. But to transfer a DVD-video compliant structure, a true "DVD-video ISO" needs to be created. Please note that most softwares deal with plain ISO creation based on "DVD-data" but not on "DVD-video", resulting in different ISO's. In this way, the former method leads to a "DVD ISO" (which is properly a "DVD-data ISO" but simply called "DVD ISO" by most) while the latter method leads to a "DVD-Video ISO" (which is what we are looking for). It took me many months to understand this difference, but I am really glad that I finally did.

Now, one of the few softwares that can create a "DVD-Video ISO" is ImgTool Classic. There are online tutorials about how to do this. Afterwards, a burning sotware like ImgBurn is used to burn the disc. Please note that the final disc is supposed to be a BD disc, so a BD recorder on the computer is needed.

In theory, the resulting BD disc will be a BD disc with a DVD-compliant structure. I would think that this BD disc is playable on the computer as if it were a normal DVD-video disc unless I am missing something.

Please be so kind to add any comments to my post, but I would appreciate that you contribute only to the technical part of it. It doesn't help if I am told, "Why are you doing this?", "What you are doing is not worth it", "BDR's are too expensive", etc.

Greetings to all,

Carlos "D-Mak" L

[r0lZ]

You're right. The files are not placed on the disc the same way for a DVD-ROM and for a DVD-Video. Furthermore, there are pointers in the IFO (and BUP) files that need to be taken into account to place the files at the correct locations (or they must be modified according to the location of the files, a less good solution.) The layer break must also be carefully placed at the right position, as the DVD-Video standard requires that the layer change occurs at the first block of a cell. The problem is even more difficult to solve when you burn DL-DVD-Rs, as, unlike the +Rs, they requires a special technique to place the layer break.

Note that most of the time, a DVD-Video created like a DVD-ROM will play correctly on the computers and on some DivX compatible DVD Players, but cannot be played on standard DVD-Video players. I suppose that's true also for BD players.

ImgTools Classic (not ImgTools Burn!) uses internally mkisofs to create the ISO, and mkisofs does a good job. I haven't used ImgTools since ages, but the last time I've used it, it was unable to create an ISO for a Double-Layer DVD-Video, as it did not place the layer break at a suitable position. At that time, there was no program capable to do that, and for that reason, I've added the burn/create ISO function in PgcEdit. PgcEdit uses also mkisofs to create the ISO, but it can place the files in a DL-DVD+R compatible manner and it handles the layer break correctly. More recently, ImgBurn v2 has adopted the same method (although it doesn't use mkisofs). It can also burn the DL-DVD-Rs, although I don't recommend them! It has also a powerful option to ensure the IFO and BUP files are not placed on the same ECC block, ensuring a better protection against scratches and dust. Since ImgBurn can create good DVD-Video ISOs and burn the DVD-Video files directly without the need to create an ISO on disc first, I recommend it. Of course, there are now several programs that can create DVD-Video compatible ISOs or burn the files directly, including Nero (finally!), but IMO, ImgBurn is still the more powerful of them, and you don't need to install a bunch of useless expensive programs to use it. However, note that I have never used it to create a DVD-Video ISO for a BD disc!

[Disco Makberto]

Dear e-friend r0lZ,

Thanks so much for your explanation. I have some comments.

>You're right. The files are not placed on the disc the same way for a DVD-ROM and for >a DVD-Video. Furthermore, there are pointers in the IFO (and BUP) files that need to >be taken into account to place the files at the correct locations (or they must be modified >according to the location of the files, a less good solution.)

I can see.

>The layer break must also be carefully placed at the right position, as the DVD-Video >standard requires that the layer change occurs at the first block of a cell. The problem is >even more difficult to solve when you burn DL-DVD-Rs, as, unlike the +Rs, they >requires a special technique to place the layer break.

Absolutely. However, if we are transferring a DVDR-DL Video to a BDR Video, layer breaks are useless since the DVDR-DL's 8.5GB capacity distributed on the two layers as 4.7GB per layer or so can be transfered easily to a BDR's 25 GB single layer without having issues with the layer break. In other words, a BDR can read a 8.5GB movie continuously without having to change the laser reader on the break point as on the first layer of the DVDR-DL's 8.5GB disc in order to move to the second layer. This important to me because some readers have micro-time delays while changing to the second layer. However, while transferring, how do we go about this? Is there a way to get rid of the layer break before burning the movie to the BDR?

>Note that most of the time, a DVD-Video created like a DVD-ROM will play correctly >on the computers and on some DivX compatible DVD Players, but cannot be played on >standard DVD-Video players. I suppose that's true also for BD players.

If I understand correctly, a DVD-Video created like a DVD-ROM (or DVD-data as I call it) will play correctly on computers and some standalone players but only when it comes to files. In other order words, since we are talking about DVD-data, there is no DVD-Video menu. However, when we are talking about a DVD-Video created like a DVD-Video (via a "DVD-Video ISO", for instance), there will be a menu that is playable on the computer and, if we record the DVD-video on DVDR discs, standalone players.

>ImgTools Classic (not ImgTools Burn!) uses internally mkisofs to create the ISO, and >mkisofs does a good job. I haven't used ImgTools since ages, but the last time I've used >it, it was unable to create an ISO for a Double-Layer DVD-Video, as it did not place the >layer break at a suitable position.

Thank you for the information. Again, if we are transferring a DVDR DL to a BDR, I suppose it is even recommendable to get rid of the layer break as we don't need it on a BDR.

>At that time, there was no program capable to do that, and for that reason, I've added the >burn/create ISO function in PgcEdit. PgcEdit uses also mkisofs to create the ISO, but it >can place the files in a DL-DVD+R compatible manner and it handles the layer break >correctly.

Thank you. Your function is very useful to transfer a DVDR DL to another DVDR DL while keeping the proper layer break.

>More recently, ImgBurn v2 has adopted the same method (although it doesn't use >mkisofs). It can also burn the DL-DVD-Rs, although I don't recommend them! It has >also a powerful option to ensure the IFO and BUP files are not placed on the same >ECC block, ensuring a better protection against scratches and dust. Since ImgBurn can >create good DVD-Video >ISOs and burn the DVD-Video files directly without the need >to create an ISO on disc first, I recommend it.

Thumbs up.

>Of course, there are now several programs that can create DVD-Video compatible ISOs >or burn the files directly, including Nero (finally!),

Which version of Nero are you referring to?

>but IMO, ImgBurn is still the more powerful of them, and you don't need to install a >bunch of useless expensive programs to use it. However, note that I have never used it >to create a DVD-Video ISO for a BD disc!
>r0lZ

Best regards,

Carlos Albert
Disco Makberto

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, one more time!

I found out that there is a simple way to remove the layer break on DL media before burning it onto a BD. I am going to try to list the steps for one pathway to replicate a DVDR DL (or a DVDR SL) onto a BD while keeping the DVD-video structure. We need DVDShrink, ImgTool Classic, ImgBurn:

1) Place the DVDR DL or DVDR SL on your PC DVD reader, and rip it with DVDShrink. If it is a DL disc, don't forget to check "Remove Layer Break".

2) Create a "DVD-Video ISO" (not a "DVD ISO") on your hard drive using ImgTool Classic.

3) Place a BDR on your PC burner and burn the "DVD-Video ISO" onto the BDR disc with ImgBurn.

Please note that this method should work on "paper only" which means that it needs confirmation.

I hope this humble method of mine helps. As of today (Feb. 2009), there is no mentioning anywhere on the Internet about replicating a DVD-Video structure on a BD like this pathway does. Most (or all) information that deals with DVD SD on BD centers around creating BD-compatible files on the BD disc while my approach centers around reproducing the same DVD-compatible files that are on the orignal DVD disc on the resulting BD disc.

Any comments are highly appreciated.

Carlos "DM" Albert

[r0lZ]

However, if we are transferring a DVDR-DL Video to a BDR Video, layer breaks are useless since the DVDR-DL's 8.5GB capacity distributed on the two layers as 4.7GB per layer or so can be transfered easily to a BDR's 25 GB single layer without having issues with the layer break. In other words, a BDR can read a 8.5GB movie continuously without having to change the laser reader on the break point as on the first layer of the DVDR-DL's 8.5GB disc in order to move to the second layer.I agree that the LB is not a problem in your case, but I was explaining why a DVD-Video cannot be simply burned like a DVD-ROM.

This important to me because some readers have micro-time delays while changing to the second layer. However, while transferring, how do we go about this? Is there a way to get rid of the layer break before burning the movie to the BDR?Technically speaking, the layer break is not kept when you rip the DVD-Video, as it contains no data. (it is made of a special sequence of null blocks, that are not part of any file.) However, the DVD-Video standard requires that the cell at the LB position is marked as "non seamless". In other words, the seamless flag (that is normally set on all cells but the first one in a sequential title) be clear on the layer break cell. When the player reaches a cell with the seamless flag clear, it is supposed to pause a little, verify if the cell has a cell command (which is normally not the case for the LB cell), and it can use the duration of the pause to refocus the laser on the second layer. That being said, most modern players do NOT require the pause to focus to the new layer, and therefore, the seamless flag can usually be set on the layer break cell, unless it must be clear for another reason, such as the presence of a cell command. The technique of the "seamless layer break" is used on the SuperBit commercial DVDs. You can also set the seamless flag with PgcEdit, and ImgBurn has a "seamless" option allowing you to set the flag when the DVD is burned. (However, you cannot change it when you burn an ISO.)

If I understand correctly, a DVD-Video created like a DVD-ROM (or DVD-data as I call it) will play correctly on computers and some standalone players but only when it comes to files. In other order words, since we are talking about DVD-data, there is no DVD-Video menu. However, when we are talking about a DVD-Video created like a DVD-Video (via a "DVD-Video ISO", for instance), there will be a menu that is playable on the computer and, if we record the DVD-video on DVDR discs, standalone players.No, the players I was referring to are all capable of displaying a menu. The problem is that the DVD-Video players are supposed to use the UDF file system only to locate the beginning of VIDEO_TS.IFO. Then, they use the pointers in that file to find all other files. Of course, that means that the files must be placed correctly on disc, according to the pointers in VIDEO_TS.IFO. In the other hand, the software players use the file system to locate all files, and they do not use the VIDEO_TS pointers. (That's necessary, otherwise they would not be able to play a DVD stored on hard disc.) Most modern DivX capable players and DVD recorders are in fact little PCs (running usually Linux Embedded), and therefore act like software players. But the old DVD-Video standard players must have a properly formatted DVD, or they will not find the files where they expect them.

Which version of Nero are you referring to?I don't use Nero any more, since it is a monster and I prefer ImgBurn. When I wrote the Burn function for PgcEdit, the forums like this one were full of threads of users complaining about Nero, as it was unable to burn DL-DVD-Videos. But currently these complaints have ceased, so I'm sure they have finally found a way to do the job right. Don't ask me more! ;)

[r0lZ]

Please note that this method should work on "paper only" which means that it needs confirmation.

I hope this humble method of mine helps. As of today (Feb. 2009), there is no mentioning anywhere on the Internet about replicating a DVD-Video structure on a BD like this pathway does. Most (or all) information that deals with DVD SD on BD centers around creating BD-compatible files on the BD disc while my approach centers around reproducing the same DVD-compatible files that are on the orignal DVD disc on the resulting BD disc.Your method should work. I'm sure you can also rip the files with any good ripper, such as DVD Decrypter, and burn them directly in Build mode with ImgBurn. In other words, you don't need an ISO.

I've never used your method or a similar one, but I've already burned some short films on CDRs formatted as DVD-Video (called mini-DVD), and they were perfectly working on all players (as long as the player can recognize CDRs, of course.) I've used ImgBurn to burn them. As long as there is enough room on the CD, it accepts to burn it as a DVD-Video. It should therefore also accept to burn DVD-Video files on BD.

However, I have a doubt on the utility of your procedure. BDs are still very expansive, and they cannot be played on standard DVD-Video players. BDs are probably more fragile too. So, why not use standard DVD+/-Rs or DL-DVD+Rs?

[Disco Makberto]

r0lZ,

>However, I have a doubt on the utility of your procedure. BDs are >still very expansive,

But not exorbitantly so as they used to. At Amazon, once can find a BDR disc for USD 4 something.

>and they cannot be played on standard DVD-Video players.

Not now, but perhaps in the future.

>BDs are probably more fragile too. So, why not use standard >DVD+/-Rs or DL-DVD+Rs?

I have read the contrary. In the case of a DVDR SL, you might have a point. But in the case of a DVDR DL, I disagree. You see, the break point is a weak point, and that is the reason why archive quality DVDR DL's haven't been commercialized. Since a BD doesn't have a break point, that is, when replicating an 8.5 GB movie onto a BD, well, it follows that a BD (SL, that is) is better suited for archival purposes, for it doesn't have weak break points.

Returning to the issue of price, not too long ago, I thought that a 3" BDR was cheaper than a 5" BDR. I concluded this based on the fact that 3" DVDR's were cheaper than 5" DVDR's when the 3" DVDR's appeared on the market. However, to my surprise, 3" BDR's are more expensive than 5" BDR's.

I will answer your other posts as soon as possible, but I might go out to eat right now.

Until soon,

CAL

[r0lZ]

I agree that DL-DVDs are not good, and I try to avoid them when it's possible. I prefer to shring the movie a bit, remove the extras and useless streams, and menushrink the menus to keep the movie on a good SL DVD. DBs are too young to be judged; we will see in the future if they are still readable some years after having been burn.

I guess the price is essentially a question of availability. Since more 5'' are sell, they are cheaper.

[Disco Makberto]

Your method should work. I'm sure you can also rip the files with any good ripper, such as DVD Decrypter, and burn them directly in Build mode with ImgBurn. In other words, you don't need an ISO.

That is very interesting. But my question is, when you say, "burn them directly", doesn't the software create a temporary ISO image? If so, we would be saving steps, but the process is basically the same.

I've never used your method or a similar one, but I've already burned some short films on CDRs formatted as DVD-Video (called mini-DVD), and they were perfectly working on all players (as long as the player can recognize CDRs, of course.) I've used ImgBurn to burn them. As long as there is enough room on the CD, it accepts to burn it as a DVD-Video. It should therefore also accept to burn DVD-Video files on BD.

Are you saying that you also included a DVD-compliant menu on the CDR? I am familiar with a "mini-DVD", or at least
I thought so, for I was under the impression that a DVD-compliant menu along with the corresponding VOB, BUP, IFO files couldn't be included on a CDR so that the CDR be playable on standalone DVD players with a woking DVD-compliant menu.

CAL
DM

[Disco Makberto]

I guess the price is essentially a question of availability. Since more 5'' are sell, they are cheaper.

Excellent point!

CAL

[Disco Makberto]

RE: Old players vs. new players.

I didn't know the fact about the "seamless layer break" tecnique on newer DVD players (and on the SuperBit DVD's). But my DVD players are a bit old, and money-wise, I still need to wait quite some time to be able to buy a new DVD player. On a related issue, while we are at it, how does a PC software deal with the layer break while reading a disc inserted into the PC DVD drive? Is it seamless or not seamless? Or it depends on the disc (I suppose that SuperBit DVD's are read seamlessly on the computer)?

Carlos AL
DM

[r0lZ]

That is very interesting. But my question is, when you say, "burn them directly", doesn't the software create a temporary ISO image? If so, we would be saving steps, but the process is basically the same.
No, ImgBurn (in Build mode) doesn't create a temp ISO. (Or, more precisely, I suppose it creates one, but never writes it to the hard disc. It builds it dynamically and writes it directly to the DVDR.)

Are you saying that you also included a DVD-compliant menu on the CDR? I am familiar with a "mini-DVD", or at least
I thought so, for I was under the impression that a DVD-compliant menu along with the corresponding VOB, BUP, IFO files couldn't be included on a CDR so that the CDR be playable on standalone DVD players with a woking DVD-compliant menu.
You can include the menus if there is enough room. In fact, the player just ignores completely the media type. As long as the files are compatible with the DVD-Video standard (and properly layered out on the disc), it treats it as a real DVD-Video. I've used that possibility, for example, to burn the main movie on a SL-DVD, and the extras and bonus on a CDR, and kept the original menu (somewhat modified) on both media.

[r0lZ]

On a related issue, while we are at it, how does a PC software deal with the layer break while reading a disc inserted into the PC DVD drive? Is it seamless or not seamless? Or it depends on the disc (I suppose that SuperBit DVD's are read seamlessly on the computer)?Since on a real PC the player has enough RAM, it uses a large buffer, and can therefore usually play a non-seamless cell without any pause. However, even if the cell appears seamless to the user, it is still technically a non-seamless cell. (BTW, I don't like the fact that the software players do not pause when playing a non-seamless cell, as I cannot figure out if the LB will be noticeable on a standalone player. I've added recently a function in the PgcEdit's Burn DVD dialog to check the layer break position. PgcEdit forces a 2 seconds pause between the cells, so that you can judge by yourself if the cell is suitable for the LB. Of course, that's useless if you use the Seamless LB technique.)

BTW, I'm not sure all old players have problems with the Seamless LBs. Since the Superbit DVDs are sell without any warning about possible incompatibility issues, I suppose most players can handle the Seamless LB without problem. However, to ensure a good compatibility, the "mux rate" of the end of the cell preceding the LB is modified. That's very technical, but what you have to know is that if you force a seamless LB on a DVD that has not been muxed with that possibility in mind, or if you change the LB position, there is more risks of problems. PgcEdit checks if the mux rate is compatible with the Seamless LB technique. However, even when it is not, I have never had problems with my players.

[Disco Makberto]

No, ImgBurn (in Build mode) doesn't create a temp ISO. (Or, more precisely, I suppose it creates one, but never writes it to the hard disc. It builds it dynamically and writes it directly to the DVDR.)

That's what I meant. To be more precise, the temporary ISO is created on the fly but not written to the disc. Thus, this means that the burning is not a one-step process although it is a 1-click solution.

You can include the menus if there is enough room.

Excellent!

In fact, the player just ignores completely the media type. As long as the files are compatible with the DVD-Video standard (and properly layered out on the disc), it treats it as a real DVD-Video.

I have a question here, please. You are saying that the files need to be DVD-compliant and "properly layered out on the disc". So, assuming that I want my DVD-compliant files on a BD disc, when I use the burning software, do I have to choose "Blu-Ray" as final destination? I was under the impression that since I was dealing with DVD-compliant files, it didn't matter if I choose as final destination either DVD or Blu-Ray in spite of the fact that my resulting disc is a BD. In other words, will it make a difference?

Thank you in advance for your time.

Carlos Albert L.
Disco-Mak

[Disco Makberto]

RE: Seamless vs. Not Seamless.

I appreciate your technical explanations very much.

CAL

[r0lZ]

That's what I meant. To be more precise, the temporary ISO is created on the fly but not written to the disc. Thus, this means that the burning is not a one-step process although it is a 1-click solution.I don't understand what you call a one-step process. Of course, the burning program has to create the filesystem and put the files on the disc. That's why it is made for. So, call that process "building an ISO" or whatever, anyway if must be done (except, of course, when you burn an ISO, as the burning program can probably assume that it has been build correctly. However, note that even in this situation, when ImgBurn burns a DL ISO, it verifies that the layer break position is correct in the ISO.) From the user point of view, burning the files directly is a one-time process. Anyway, the terminology is not important.

I have a question here, please. You are saying that the files need to be DVD-compliant and "properly layered out on the disc". So, assuming that I want my DVD-compliant files on a BD disc, when I use the burning software, do I have to choose "Blu-Ray" as final destination? I was under the impression that since I was dealing with DVD-compliant files, it didn't matter if I choose as final destination either DVD or Blu-Ray in spite of the fact that my resulting disc is a BD. In other words, will it make a difference?Honestly, I don't know.
When the files are layered out on disc, as you know now, their place relative to VIDEO_TS.IFO is important. It is possible that the Blu-Ray discs require that the first file be at a different position than on a DVD, I don't know. Anyway, if the other files are correctly placed, that should work.
On the other hand, maybe some programs use the "Burn as Blu-Ray" option to assume that the files to burn are Blu-Ray files. Of course, since it's not the case, you should not use that option.
I know that ImgBurn detects automatically if the files to burn are DVD-Video files, and it treats them accordingly. It detects also the type of the medium that is in your drive. Therefore, IMO, you don't have to specify anything. But since I don't have a Blu-Ray burner, I'm not sure.

[Disco Makberto]

Hey, r0lZ!

By one step process, I mean something similar to using a DVD-RAM disc and FAT32 files. As such, this is really a one step process. However, it might be best to describe this as a transferring and not a burning. I had this discussion with a friend. So, I think that you are right.

Retuning to the point of burning, when you say, relative to ImgBurn and DVD-compliant files on BD, "you don't have to specify anything", is it possible to have this choice on the software? I mean, can I choose among "DVD", "BD", "CD", and "Nothing"?

Best,

Carlos A.L.
Disco Makbert

[r0lZ]

No, I don't think so. ImgBurn uses always the disc that is in the drive. Of course, you can change the disc.

[Disco Makberto]

Yes, you are right, r0lZ! I went to the official Web-site of ImgBurn, and the options for writing are: "Write image file to disc" and "Write file/folders to disc". Indeed, it doesn't specify if the final destination is DVD, BD, CD, etc. This is perfect for my purposes! Doing nothing is the best scenario for me, I think.

C-A-L