Please Explain The Different Outputs Of MPC [Archive]

DrNein

17th January 2009, 06:33

That thread covers some of the technical differences but not the functional ones. A reasonable approach to choosing is based upon the OS and the desired functionality.

For Windows Vista and 7, EVR is generally the natural choice. However for 2000 and XP, decide whether DXVA and mirroring is desired and choose accordingly.

System Default & Old Renderer: not really choices as left up to OS.

VMR7 (windowed): can use Overlay Mixer so there is little reason to force the latter. It is additionally capable of both DXVA and mirroring, and maintains colour independent of the desktop. Its single deficiency is losing DXVA with subtitles.

VMR9 (windowed): may or may not be usable (no picture).

VMR7 (renderless): incapable of DXVA and mirroring and independent colour configuration, allows resizer (and other pixel shader effects), notably renders the last eight lines of broadcast captures correctly.

VMR9 (renderless): incapable of mirroring and independent colour configuration, but it does maintain DXVA with subtitles, allows resizer &c.

Haali Renderer: incapable of DXVA and mirroring, allows resizer &c.

EVR (Vista / .NET3): may not work with all sources, and is incapable of DXVA and mirroring.

EVR Custom Pres.: may or may not be usable (no picture), allows resizer &c.

Notes:
EVR under XP requires EVR.dll from Vista. VMR under 2000 requires at least DirectX 9.0b. Haali Renderer requires Haali Media Splitter.
With the latest MPC-HC, the new Output option "Full Screen Monitor" can almost make up for the lack of mirroring with VMR9 (renderless) so is a reasonable choice if DXVA with subtitles is important and independent colour is not. Of course, with the option "Store settings to ini file" and multiple instances of the executable (optionally with different names), it is easy to use different renderers (and filters and so on) for different sources.

Leak

17th January 2009, 11:34

However for Windows 5, decide whether DXVA and mirroring is desired and choose accordingly.
You might want to call that "Windows XP"...

VMR9 (windowed): unusable (no picture)
EVER Custom Pres.: unusable (no picture)
Also, you might want to state your system's specs since all renderers produce a picture with my ATI Radeon 4850 under Windows XP.

And you forgot to mention that shaders (and shader-based bilinear and bicubic resizing) will only work with "VMR9 Renderless" and "EVR Custom Presenter", and that EVR under Windows XP needs the .NET Framework version 3 or up installed (and the EVR.dll in the System32 folder registered with regsvr32).

np: The Matthew Herbert Big Band - Breathe (There's Me And There's You)

Kado

17th January 2009, 13:43

@DrNein and Leak

Actually Windows 5.0 is "Windows 2000", Windows 5.1 is "Windows XP", Windows 6.0 is "Windows Vista" and Windows 6.1 is "Windows 7" as they are a continuation of Windows NT and the last NT was "Windows NT 4.0".
Just a clarification!:P

Leak

17th January 2009, 14:29

Actually Windows 5.0 is "Windows 2000", Windows 5.1 is "Windows XP"
Eh, you might just have a point there... but 0.1 off isn't too bad IMHO... :D

np: Proem - Live @ Digitalnimbus 10-20-06 (Merck Fragments)

leeperry

17th January 2009, 15:00

EVR under Windows XP needs the .NET Framework version 3 or up installed (and the EVR.dll in the System32 folder registered with regsvr32).
actually all that bloatware is not required.
all you need is evr.dll(dxva2/evrprop are optional), I've updated this package w/ the latest DLL's from Vista SP1 :
http://www.badongo.com/file/7953064

DrNein

17th January 2009, 22:30

Good points. Also, if I recall, VMR can be added to 2000 with DX updates.

That's odd about VMR9 (windowed)... no picture with numerous Radeon cards up to 3650 and I think even a Geforce 7600.

chros

18th January 2009, 16:57

actually all that bloatware is not required.
all you need is evr.dll(dxva2/evrprop are optional), I've updated this package w/ the latest DLL's from Vista SP1 :
http://www.badongo.com/file/7953064
Thanks for updating this ... :)

DrNein

3rd February 2009, 11:27

That is EVR & DXVA2 version 5.0.1.1 but the latest NET Framework seems to install 6.0.6001.18000. However the file version value oddly lists "longhorn_rtm" versus "vista_rtm" (Longhorn was the development name for Vista)?

http://www.badongo.com/file/13209861

cyberbeing

7th February 2009, 06:55

Longhorn was the development name for Vista
Longhorn is the codename for both Vista and Server 2008.

The newest 'usable' evr.dll is 6.0.6002.16659 (lh_sp2rc.090114-1728) which as you can probably guess, is from the Vista SP2 RC build. Unless you are on the beta, there is no legit way to get this.

The newest evrprop.dll (080901) can be found in the Windows 7 SDK along with a newer version of GraphEdit (DirectX 10.0 Build 081215). The Windows 7 SDK on the other hand is public and can be downloaded from microsoft.com

DrNein

6th March 2009, 22:39

New testing results... :)

Windows XP SP3
HD3650 AGP (two displays in Extended mode)
Catalyst 9.2 AGP Hotfix
DirectX 9.0c November 2008
EVR 6.0.6001.18000
CyberLink AVC 2.2.0.725 & MPEG-2 8.2.0.806 from PowerDVD 7.3.4407
ATI MPEG-2 10.0.0.40103 from Avivo
FFmpeg AVC & VC-1 internal to MPC-HC 1.2.1007.0 svn
MPEG PS/TS/PVA internal splitter (required for PGS -active with VMR9r but not EVRcp)
note Haali Media Splitter (AR) detects but does not display PGS
3D Surfaces for "VMR7 (renderless), VMR9 (renderless)", & "EVR Custom Pres." (pre-set)
Full Screen Monitor & Theater Mode for multiple displays
Professional/commercial sources in TS

Note: "Video Renderer" other than invoked by Overlay Mixer is CLSID ...75AC -seems to be "VMR7 (windowed)" which is also "System Default" -"Old Renderer" invokes same and "VMR7 (renderless)" shares same CLSID

Overlay Mixer (FSM no, TM yes) uses Video Renderer CLSID: ...595A
AVC: DXVA yes (FFmpeg but not CyberLink)
VC1: DXVA yes
MP2: DXVA yes

VMR7 (windowed) (FSM no, TM yes)
AVC: DXVA yes
VC1: DXVA yes
MP2: DXVA yes

VMR9 (windowed) (FSM no, TM no)
AVC: freezes
VC1: freezes
MP2: DXVA yes but plays blank

VMR7 (renderless) (FSM no, TM no)
AVC: FFmpeg switches to Video Renderer, CyberLink DXVA no
VC1: switches to Video Renderer
MP2: DXVA no

VMR9 (renderless) (FSM yes, TM no, PGS yes)
AVC: DXVA yes
VC1: DXVA yes
MP2: DXVA yes

Haali Renderer (FSM no, TM no)
AVC: DXVA no
VC1: switches to Video Renderer
MP2: DXVA no

EVR (FSM no, TM no)
AVC: FFmpeg switches to Video Renderer, CyberLink freezes
VC1: DXVA yes
MP2: DXVA yes

EVR Custom Pres. (FSM yes, TM no, PGS no)
AVC: FFmpeg switches to Video Renderer, CyberLink freezes
VC1: DXVA yes (okay with FSM but freezes otherwise)
MP2: DXVA yes

Jong

7th March 2009, 01:01

Following you from your post in the MPC-HC thread!

How did you get PDVD to use EVR under XP?

What decoder were you using to get DVXA2 decoding of MPEG-2 under XP? I haven't tried this yet, but the Cyberlink decoder certainly does DXVA1, but the MPC-HC one does not use DXVA at all.

DrNein

7th March 2009, 02:19

Kado

7th March 2009, 04:08

Vmr=dxva1
evr=dxva2

off topic=>I tried to write the previous text using uppercase but it gets saved like that.

DrNein

7th March 2009, 04:47

Thanks for the confirmation.

I see evr.dll 6.0.6002.16497 is available in the Vista/Server 2008 SP2 RC (different that the version cyberbeing mentioned). What about dxva2.dll?

littleD

7th March 2009, 08:16

PDVD is just the source of the listed AVC & MPEG-2 decoders tested in MPC-HC.

I do not know that DXVA2 is in use. DXVA Checker reports DXVA1 for Mode C & D, and DXVA2 for IDCT. Or does EVR imply DXVA2 -which would explain why VC-1 also works but AVC does not? In any case, both CyberLink and ATI MPEG-2 decoders use DXVA while the MPC-HC one (libmpeg2) is indeed unable.

I have the same.
When u use vmr9 only dxva1 is used (example mpeg mode c/d). When using evr, the renderer check if device is able to decode by dxva2. If so, it use it (ex. mpeg2 idct). If NOT, then MPC HC switch to regular vmr9 to use dxva1 (ex. avc). Vc-1 is most flexible, as it can be decoded in both modes.
DrNein what is cpu usage comparing mpeg2 in dxva1 and2. because when i use dxva2 idct the cpu is very high.

Jong

7th March 2009, 08:46

DrNein what is cpu usage comparing mpeg2 in dxva1 and2. because when i use dxva2 idct the cpu is very high.I'll look at this too this morning.

Jong

7th March 2009, 10:08

DrNein what is cpu usage comparing mpeg2 in dxva1 and2. because when i use dxva2 idct the cpu is very high.Only a quick test (Using the Cyberlink PDVD7 SD decoder) and I got slightly inconsistent results from disc to disc, Sometimes about the same CPU overall with a slighty different load balance across my two cores, sometimes a bit higher, sometimes a bit lower. All pretty much within the variability throughout playback (12%-16%) total CPU (with Reclock doing excellent resampling, which bumps up the CPU).

Kado

7th March 2009, 16:10

@DrNein
Vista x86 SP2 v.275
EVR.dll=6.0.6002.16659
DXVA2.dll=6.0.6001.18000

Windows 7 x86 b7022
EVR.dll=6.1.7022
DXVA2.dll=5.0.1.1

DrNein

7th March 2009, 20:55

CPU usage for MPEG-2 38Mbps 1080i50

Note frame-rate with VMR7 (windowed) is 25 in all combinations, and with EVR is 50 for all but MPC-HC decoder (no DXVA) which is 25.

VMR7 (windowed) with decoder/splitter
15% ATI/CyberLink
25% ATI/Haali
30% ATI/MPC-HC
25% CyberLink/CyberLink
35% CyberLink/Haali
40% CyberLink/MPC-HC
53% MPC-HC/CyberLink
60% MPC-HC/Haali
60% MPC-HC/MPC-HC

EVR with decoder/splitter
35% ATI/CyberLink
40% ATI/Haali
45% ATI/MPC-HC
25% CyberLink/CyberLink
30% CyberLink/Haali
35% CyberLink/MPC-HC
35% MPC-HC/CyberLink
45% MPC-HC/Haali
55% MPC-HC/MPC-HC

DrNein

7th March 2009, 21:26

CPU usage for MPEG-2 23Mbps 1080i60/1.001

All decoders tested with CyberLink splitter. Again, frame-rate with VMR7 (windowed) is 29.97 and with EVR is 59.94 except MPC-HC (no DXVA) which is 29.97.

Not including results for EVR Custom Pres. and VMR9 (renderless) due to poor quality with all decoders (the latter is worst). Quality is good with all below except as noted.

ATI
35% Haali Renderer (DXVA n/a)
12% VMR7 (windowed)
32% EVR

CyberLink
45% VMR7 (windowed) with DXVA disabled
25% VMR7 (windowed)
15% EVR, poor quality

MPC-HC (DXVA n/a)
33% VMR7 (windowed)
33% EVR

littleD

8th March 2009, 23:46

Thanks Jong and DrNein foe tests. My two videos are somehow specific, that using idct for them require high cpu usage.

What is that ati decoder u used? Is it free and where can i download it? What is output quality? Is it worth to use it?

DrNein

9th March 2009, 01:55

THX-UltraII

9th March 2009, 13:48

Since this topic goes into EVR a have a question about this:

I use MPC-HC 1008 version with XP SP3 and Framenetwork 1.0 and 2.0 installed. EVR is selectable in the MPC-HC options and gives my picture. Does this also mean EVR is working ok or is it better to download more/newer things? I ask this because I read something about a evr.dll

iron2000

9th March 2009, 19:27

ATI decoder is in the free Avivo package, downloadable from AMD same place as the Catalyst drivers. The quality is good and the performance is good so yeah worth using. Also see the Avivo settings in CCC and try Vector Adaptive Deinterlacing.

How do you get the ATI codec to work in MPC-HC?
Tried to give merit to the ATI MPEG Video Decoder and disabling ffdshow but it ddn't work.

Kado

9th March 2009, 19:49

@THX-UltraII
Do you want any of the evr.dll files I listed in my previous post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1258628#post1258628)?

Jong

9th March 2009, 20:31

How do you get the ATI codec to work in MPC-HC?
Tried to give merit to the ATI MPEG Video Decoder and disabling ffdshow but it ddn't work.What IS it using? Have you disabled the internal MPEG-2 filter and set ATI to "prefer"?

THX-UltraII

9th March 2009, 20:56

@THX-UltraII
Do you want any of the evr.dll files I listed in my previous post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1258628#post1258628)?

would be great! And is a small installation guide possible to? :)

iron2000

10th March 2009, 03:23

What IS it using? Have you disabled the internal MPEG-2 filter and set ATI to "prefer"?

Yup, I did do that.
It was using ffdshow before when disabled theres audio only and that pin error dialog.

Setting ATI to prefer does nothing.

THX-UltraII

10th March 2009, 10:23

Kado: I ve send you a PM

Jong

10th March 2009, 10:30

Kado: I ve send you a PMLet us know if you see any difference. Using the standard version that came (presumably) with .net 3.5 SP1 here and I cannot see any problems (other than I wish DXVA H.264 worked too).

Anyone know if the lack of DXVA2 h.264 on XP is a real fundamental limitation or if it might be fixed in a future Catalyst driver? I know for a while people thought DXVA2 meant only Vista, but now we know that is not true.

littleD

10th March 2009, 11:18

Ati recently partially dropped driver support for older cards (before HD series). So maybe they will have time and will to fix h.264 dxva2 issue and level4.1 limitation like Nvidia did :devil:

Klaus_1250

19th March 2009, 13:28

Two quick questions

- Are there any people who managed to get EVR + DXVA under Windows XP (using ATi)? If so, how???
- I lost DXVA MPEG2 during one of the Cat 8.x driver updates. Does anyone know how to get it back?

My System is Win XP SP3, HD3850 AGP, Cat 9.3. Latest DirectX and .Net 3.5 SP1.

Ati recently partially dropped driver support for older cards (before HD series).
They didn't. They moved to the legacy status --> quarterly updates.

Jong

19th March 2009, 14:07

Two quick questions

- Are there any people who managed to get EVR + DXVA under Windows XP (using ATi)? If so, how???Yes, for VC-1 and MPEG2.

Nothing special. .net 3.5 SP1 installed, no special registrations needed. MPC Video Decoder will use DXVA2 for VC-1 and Cyberlink Video/SD Decoder (7 or 8) will use DXVA2 for MPEG2. MPC's MPEG2 decoder seems to be software only, even with VMR9.

But there is no DXVA2 for AVC-1 so its not that useful, for me at least.

Klaus_1250

20th March 2009, 11:54

Ok, thanx. That is not what I'm seeing on my install though. Guess it's time to think about a reinstall...

Jong

20th March 2009, 13:01

Ok, thanx. That is not what I'm seeing on my install though. Guess it's time to think about a reinstall...But is there really any point without AVC acceleration?

MPEG2 is easy in software. VC-1, whilst still used, is being overtaken by AVC on Blu-ray. AVC is almost exclusively used for online mkvs.

Klaus_1250

20th March 2009, 18:48

Yes and no. I have a few WMV's and VC-1's I want to have accelerated with EVR. I can now play them with lower CPU-usage on EVR and software decoding than with DXVA1 and VMR9. Which is kind of peculiar, especially since a friend of mine has Vista SP1 and EVR sucks in comparison to VMR9 (EVR in full screen forces 0-255 to 16-255 and has framedrops every second).
No AVC with DXVA and EVR sucks, but than again, half of my mkv's are L5.1 which won't work with DXVA anyway (thanks ATi, next time I'll go for nVidia again). Too bad you can't configure the renderer in MPC-HC on the basis of the codec.

tetsuo55

17th April 2009, 10:12

I'm trying to understand the differences between the outputs.

First a list of capabilities:

*Mirroring (why is this a good thing?)
*Overlay mixing (why is this a good thing?)
*Color settings independant from desktop settings
*DXVA
*subtitles in DXVA mode
*hardware scaling
*Software scaling
*Scaling quality
*Chroma upsampling quality
*Buffering
*handling of jitter/judder
*Tearing in windowed or fullscreen mode
*Proper luminance levels

!NOTE: if results vary between XP, Vista and Windows7 this will have to be noted, no note means results are equal on all versions!

Now did i miss any renderer specific features?

If not we can start making a matrix of features.

clsid

17th April 2009, 12:47

* Proper luminance levels

tetsuo55

17th April 2009, 12:58

* Proper luminance levels

added

mark0077

17th April 2009, 13:06

Would something like these, or at least as a sub category of "proper luminance levels"

"Smart Detection Of Input Colorspace, Levels"

aswell as

"Custom Setting Of Input Colorspace, Levels"

Maybe

"Smart Detection Of Output / Display Colorspace, Levels"

aswell as

"Custom Setting Of Output / Display Colorspace, Levels"

Eric B

17th April 2009, 14:41

VMR7 (windowed): can use Overlay Mixer so there is little reason to force the latter. It is additionally capable of both DXVA and mirroring, and maintains colour independent of the desktop. Its single deficiency is losing DXVA with subtitles.

VMR9 (windowed): may or may not be usable (no picture).

VMR7 (renderless): incapable of DXVA and mirroring and independent colour configuration, allows resizer (and other pixel shader effects), notably renders the last eight lines of broadcast captures correctly.

VMR9 (renderless): incapable of mirroring and independent colour configuration, but it does maintain DXVA with subtitles, allows resizer &c.

Haali Renderer: incapable of DXVA and mirroring, allows resizer &c.

I've just tested my configuration within MPC-HC (v1.2.908) with my Ati HD3650 under XP and confirm your summary: DXVA enabled with subtitle only with VRM9 (renderless), enabled w/o sub with default/VMR7 (windowed)/overlay and disabled in most other cases (not all tested).

Good samples for testing can be found at Divx7 showcase (http://www.divx.com/en/downloads/divx-7-showcase), Dixv7 being a h.264 high profile L4.0 (media info). I've used ElephanDreams and remuxed it w/o subtitles for further tests.

MPC-HD could be the perfect player, if he did a proper renderer: I've unfortunately many macro blocking / frame broken with the internal codecs, perhaps even more with VRM9 renderless than VRM7 windowed, but not sure: both are not delivering perfect quality...