PC monitors that can display 50Hz video without converting?

[2Bdecided]

Has anyone found a list of PC monitors that can accept a 50Hz input, and display it natively at 50Hz?

On many PCs / graphics cards, you need Powerstrip to get a 50Hz output, and ReClock to ensure 1:1 frame output (i.e. no repeated or dropped frames) - it's fairly easy to find information on the net about which graphics cards PowerStrip works with.

However, when it comes to displaying this 50Hz output properly, it seems very difficult to find LCD PC monitors which accept it, and even harder to verify that those which accept 50Hz actually display it at 50Hz.

This is really important, because when you get it working the video looks smooth - just like on a real TV. When you get it wrong, the video looks stuttery - more like a film than like video.

People in NTSC countries watching 60Hz don't have this problem - almost all monitors handle this just fine, and ReClock (and if necessary Powerstrip) can be used to get 1:1 frame output on almost any PC monitor.

If anyone knows of a list, or a forum where this is currently discussed, please post a link.

If there are no lists, where would be a good place to start/pin one?

Cheers,
David.

[lpcstr]

Well, PAL video playing on a PC is going to be displayed as 25 frames/second, so set your monitor to 75hz, as most monitors and cards have that option. Hope this makes sense. I've never seen a monitor with a 50hz refresh rate, and I imagine staring at it for long might induce headaches. 50hz is not a standard monitor refresh rate even in non NTSC counties.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've never seen a monitor with a 50hz refresh rate.....Me neither. That said, some LCD TV's with PC input might.

I can confirm that 75 or 100Hz refresh rates work fine for PAL :)

[scharfis_brain]

75Hz only works fine for 25p contents.
But when it comes to 50i you'll get annoying jitter (1:2 pattern).

For sure CRTs are most commonly capable of 50, 100, 150 and even 200Hz.
But I haven't seen any LCD's so far that allowed to accept refreshrates more than 75Hz properly.

I've tried 50Hz on some LCDs. Some of them locked on the vsync but had a weird garbled image.
Others simply rejected the input signal (out of range)
and another one just inserted frames to fit to its internal 60Hz clock.

But what does work is this:
get one of these Full-HD TV-Sets that have these features:
- HDMI-In (sure :) )
- 1080p50
- no overscan (ie. 1:1 pixel representation, no scaling)
Connect this TV-Set to your graphics card and set it to either 1280x720p50 (should work always) or better 1920x1080p50.

[lpcstr]

75Hz only works fine for 25p contents.
But when it comes to 50i you'll get annoying jitter (1:2 pattern).

For sure CRTs are most commonly capable of 50, 100, 150 and even 200Hz.
But I haven't seen any LCD's so far that allowed to accept refreshrates more than 75Hz properly.

I've tried 50Hz on some LCDs. Some of them locked on the vsync but had a weird garbled image.
Others simply rejected the input signal (out of range)
and another one just inserted frames to fit to its internal 60Hz clock.

But what does work is this:
get one of these Full-HD TV-Sets that have these features:
- HDMI-In (sure :) )
- 1080p50
- no overscan (ie. 1:1 pixel representation, no scaling)
Connect this TV-Set to your graphics card and set it to either 1280x720p50 (should work always) or better 1920x1080p50.

Like I said, when viewing 50i content on a computer the fields aren't displayed separately at 50hz, they are combined into whole interlaced frames and displayed at 25hz, so there are no timing issues at 75hz for 25p OR 50i content.

75hz is perfect for viewing PAL content (25p, 50i), 60hz is perfect for NTSC (30p and 60i) and 72hz is ideal for 24p.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Like I said, when viewing 50i content on a computer the fields aren't displayed separately at 50hz, they are combined into whole interlaced frames and displayed at 25hz, so there are no timing issues at 75hz for 25p OR 50i content.

Only if you deinterlace 50i -> 25p, which destroys half of the temporal resolution. Ideally we would like to bob 50i -> 50p for smooth motion!

And then the refresh-rate needs to be multiple of 50 Hz. Nevertheless I watch PAL content bobbed to 50p on my 60 Hz screen all day long and it works pretty well.

Still I wonder why PC screens can handle 60 Hz just fine and not 50 Hz. Shouldn't 50 Hz be even easier to handle?

[cacepi]

Still I wonder why PC screens can handle 60 Hz just fine and not 50 Hz. Shouldn't 50 Hz be even easier to handle?Probably because the earliest monitors were designed in the States, and it was easier to use utility frequency as a clock instead of building custom hardware to provide one. Alternating current over here is 60Hz (unlike most of the world, of course).

There really isn't a reason why a monitor can't do 50Hz other than development inertia: if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I don't think hardware manufacturers back in the '70s could ever imagine the capabilities of a modern computer. Everybody in PAL/SECAM countries have to suffer as a result.

It's America's fault. Sorry about that. :)

[Sagekilla]

Indeed, the only obstacle I can imagine is the clock signal source/logic. Even so, my own LCD monitor runs @ 41 Hz when I hook it up through the HDMI port on my laptop, mostly because it doesn't support higher refresh rates at certain resolutions.

[2Bdecided]

Historically it's like this because when 60Hz was chosen, PCs didn't play broadcast quality video (or any video at all!) and higher refresh rate = better (less flicker). 50Hz progressive on a PC CRT is quite horrible. 100Hz was really good. 60Hz was baseline. Of course other early computer architectures (i.e. not PCs) that were designed outside America, and/or which relied on domestic TVs for display, had to address this problem and work just fine at 50Hz. It's the fact that PCs are American-centric, and that it didn't matter early on, that caused this situation.

However, now we have LCDs and broadcast (and better!) quality video. No LCDs accept 100Hz, so 50Hz becomes very desirable.

Sadly, it seems the most common panel interface chips within LCD monitors do not support 50Hz. This is a ridiculous oversight.

I guess this situation persists because what we have is "good enough" for most people. Most things on a PC are like that - by default, they're good enough, but not exactly right! It takes some work to get them "right". Sadly, with LCD monitors, the number that work properly at 50Hz is vanishingly small.

FWIW there several Viewsonic LCD monitors that accept 50Hz, so it can be done.

I was hoping to find something a _little_ further up-market, and confirm that it displayed 50Hz at 50Hz before buying it.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

But what does work is this:
get one of these Full-HD TV-Sets that have these features:
- HDMI-In (sure :) )
- 1080p50
- no overscan (ie. 1:1 pixel representation, no scaling)
Connect this TV-Set to your graphics card and set it to either 1280x720p50 (should work always) or better 1920x1080p50.While I would love to own such a thing, aren't they all still too big and expensive to use as a PC monitor? Great for the living room, but overkill for the office / mini-editing studio? (or as we call it in our house, "the corner of the dining room"!)

Cheers,
David.

[scharfis_brain]

the german computer magazine c't periodically tests new computer screens.

I remember reading about several computer displays that offered HDMI-in with 50Hz ability, but lacked other things like proper scaling, deinterlacing or aspect ratio.

[SeeMoreDigital]

While I would love to own such a thing, aren't they all still too big and expensive to use as a PC monitor?I have a 19" widescreen Hitachi TV which offers a resolution of 1440x900 pixels and my step-daughter has a little 15.4 widescreen Bush TV. Both have HDMI inputs which can run at 50 and 60Hz....

[Soulhunter]

My Eizo can do 50 Hz as well (and 24 Hz), at least via HDMI!

[scharfis_brain]

@SeeMoreDigital, @Soulhunter:
will the 50Hz modes be displayed without any resolution scaling?

[Soulhunter]

@scharfis_brain

I don't know, as its connected via DVI here because my GC doesn't have HDMI output! But following its specs it eats 576i, 576p, 625i, 625p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 1125i, 1125p @ 24, 50, 60 Hz and can output it full-screen scaled or with 1:1 pixel mapping @ 24, 50, 60 Hz (automatically sets refreshrate to match the input frame rate). If your input is interlaced you can also choose if you want your output progressive (inbuilt de-interlacing) or to stay interlaced. >.>

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi scharfis_brain,

If say, I'm playing a PAL DVD source which a resolution of 720x576 pixels and my TV's LCD panel has a resolution of 1440x900 pixels, I guess some form of up-scaling has got to be going on....

[scharfis_brain]

@SMD: but he is asking for a PC-Monitor so I assume he wants to display some GUI stuff, which obviously shouldn't be scaled by the Monitor.

[SeeMoreDigital]

@SMD: but he is asking for a PC-Monitor so I assume he wants to display some GUI stuff, which obviously shouldn't be scaled by the Monitor.Hmmm...

Even if you set your video cards output to exactly match the resolution of your movie source (which is not always possible), the monitor will still scale the image to match its panel resolution... So some form of pixel interpolation will be going on :eek:

[scharfis_brain]

hmm, that shouldn't apply with a panel that offers 1920x1080 or 1280x720 (unlikely) pixels.

I know that it works for some FullHD TVsets. But I don't know any that are capable as PC monitor :(

[FlimsyFeet]

Does it have to be LCD, or would you consider a CRT monitor? I used to have a CRT monitor that could display 50Hz, I found this out when I connected a PAL TV to the TV-out of the video card and set the desktop to clone, it altered the refresh rate of the monitor to 50Hz as well. Needed a slight pincushion adjustment for that mode and the flicker was horrible, but it worked.

[smok3]

because everyone liked those silly spreadsheets, now we are where we are...

[2Bdecided]

Does it have to be LCD, or would you consider a CRT monitor?In the past I've had CRTs that would do 50Hz (too flickery on typical PC CRTs), and one that would do 100Hz (just fine). I suppose I could use one again. It's an LCD I'm looking for at the moment though.

Cheers,
David.

[Flux]

If say, I'm playing a PAL DVD source which a resolution of 720x576 pixels and my TV's LCD panel has a resolution of 1440x900 pixels, I guess some form of up-scaling has got to be going on....

Unless you want to have black borders around the small image ;)

Theoretically you can by-pass LCD's internal upscaler if video card use always LCD's native resolution. Smaller resolutions would be processed inside the computer to fit this native resolution.

For example Lancosz resizer probably could be "a hundred times" better than LCD's internal upscaler. Yes, it eats CPU time but it would really matter in games nowadays. Movies eat so little anyway with modern processors.

[SeeMoreDigital]

hmm, that shouldn't apply with a panel that offers 1920x1080 or 1280x720 (unlikely) pixels.

I know that it works for some FullHD TVsets. But I don't know any that are capable as PC monitor :(Before my tower PC's motherboard died I connected from it's GeForce FX5200 video card via DVI to my 1920x1080p Panasonic TV's HDMI port.

After the HDMI handshaking finished, loads of resolutions and frequency options were available, including some at 50Hz...

Like others here who work with video, I have sat in-front of various PC monitors over the years and there's nothing worse than viewing moving images displayed at the wrong refresh rate. Personally speaking, I prefer now not to use PC monitors, due to their weird resolutions.... I mean, why do panel manufacturers think resolutions of 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 pixels are a good idea.... and why are such displays 16:10 :eek:

Sadly, as far as I know, nobody manufactures true 16:9 shaped LCD panels below 32"


Cheers

[scharfis_brain]

the panels of netbooks are close to SD anamorphic 16x9:
1024x600 pixels.

But unfortunately they are one builtin (no separate screens sold AFAIK) and are driven at 60Hz, as usual.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes... it's so bloody annoying :devil:

EDIT: There may be some good news after-all..... I've just discovered that Asus offers a range of 22" 1920x1080 16:9 LCD monitors. The VH226H spec looks interesting. Here's a link: -

http://uk.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=10&l2=89


And ViewSonic offer a VX2260WM: -

http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/UK/Products/LCDX/VX2260wm.htm

[TrebiusUK]

There's also offerings from Dell now that do proper 16:9 1920x1080. I've just recently bought myself one of these for just that very reason:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-029-DE&groupid=17&catid=510&subcat=

[Mug Funky]

actually, 1920x1200 is useful if you want a seekbar at the bottom... or a little bit of GUI.

right now i'm using my TV as a monitor, but that's mainly because i can't fit a desk in my weird shaped new room. the samsung panels have "justscan" mode which makes it run 1080 at 1080 with no overscan. really good for spotting booms and camera gate edges in broadcast TV too - all that stuff that used to be hidden... they're a bit unweildy though unless they're in a big room and your eyesight is good.

[Soulhunter]

Actually I prefer 16:10 over 16:9, because:

1. Its a good compromise for displaying 16:9 and 4:3 content...
2. As Mug mentioned, space for timeline/controls etc. when working with 16:9

[mariner]

My Eizo can do 50 Hz as well (and 24 Hz), at least via HDMI!

Greetings Soulhunter.

May I ask what model is this? Are the timings defined in the monitor's EDID?

Thanks and best regards.

[mariner]

Has anyone found a list of PC monitors that can accept a 50Hz input, and display it natively at 50Hz?

On many PCs / graphics cards, you need Powerstrip to get a 50Hz output, and ReClock to ensure 1:1 frame output (i.e. no repeated or dropped frames) - it's fairly easy to find information on the net about which graphics cards PowerStrip works with.

However, when it comes to displaying this 50Hz output properly, it seems very difficult to find LCD PC monitors which accept it, and even harder to verify that those which accept 50Hz actually display it at 50Hz.

This is really important, because when you get it working the video looks smooth - just like on a real TV. When you get it wrong, the video looks stuttery - more like a film than like video.

People in NTSC countries watching 60Hz don't have this problem - almost all monitors handle this just fine, and ReClock (and if necessary Powerstrip) can be used to get 1:1 frame output on almost any PC monitor.

If anyone knows of a list, or a forum where this is currently discussed, please post a link.

If there are no lists, where would be a good place to start/pin one?

Cheers,
David.

Greetings David.

The ASUS VK246H 1920x1080 LCD will do both 50/60Hz out of the box. It has CEA 861 timings in the EDID. No 24Hz.

I think the new crop of cheap 1920x1080 panels will do 50/60Hz.

Best regards.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Actually I prefer 16:10 over 16:9, because:

1. Its a good compromise for displaying 16:9 and 4:3 content...
2. As Mug mentioned, space for timeline/controls etc. when working with 16:9A suppose a 16:10 shaped monitor is fine if all you're only ever going to connect it to a PC.

However, I'm not so sure how well a 16:10 shaped monitor reacts (EDID wise) when connected to say a Blu-ray player, HD camcorder or HD set-top box.

[Soulhunter]

A suppose a 16:10 shaped monitor is fine if all you're only ever going to connect it to a PC.

However, I'm not so sure how well a 16:10 shaped monitor reacts (EDID wise) when connected to say a Blu-ray player, HD camcorder or HD set-top box.

Greetings Soulhunter.

May I ask what model is this? Are the timings defined in the monitor's EDID?

Thanks and best regards.

Its a EIZO FlexScan HD2442W... (http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/hd2442w/index.asp) I downloaded a EDID Viewer, but it doesn't list much more than some standard VESA modes and the default resolution (Maybe because its connected via DVI and not via HDMI?). From the website it looks that it runs 24p @ 48Hz? Tho nothing about 50Hz. But in this review (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-eizo-hd2442w-part13.html#DVD) they especially mention its capability to display 50/60/24Hz video which goes hand in hand with what I read earlier. Unfortunately I have no standalone BluRay player or a PS3 to test it... :\

One of the special features of the HD monitor is that image frequencies of 50 Hz and 60 Hz can be displayed and even 24 Hz video material should be recognised without difficulty. These characteristics are completely normal for TV sets, but are an absolute rarity in monitors and demonstrate advanced development.

In the ultimate discipline, the Eizo HD2442W shows directly what it can do. Although the user cannot determine on the monitor how 24 Hz material should be played back, all that is needed is switch on the player transmitting this format and watch the result. It soon becomes clear that everything works perfectly.

The input signal is automatically recognised and the monitor settings are adjusted without any action from the user. There is no juddering, even in extremely fast action scenes or slow camera movements. Artefacts to not arise at any point and there is only one more thing to say about 1080p/24: purely perfect image playback and film enjoyment.

[mariner]

You can try using EnTech's Monitor Asset Manager 2.2.

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/files/moninfo.exe

[Soulhunter]

You can try using EnTech's Monitor Asset Manager 2.2.

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/files/moninfo.exe
Same result, most info (as shown in the samples) is missing...

[Blue_MiSfit]

My BenQ 24" LCD (16x10) handles scaling perfectly fine when connected to a SAP or a PS3 through HDMI, and also handles SD / HD sources from component/s-video/composite just fine.

It's pretty good about maintaining aspect ratios, and will happily do 1:1 for 1080p content.

~MiSfit

[SeeMoreDigital]

My BenQ 24" LCD (16x10) handles scaling perfectly fine when connected to a SAP or a PS3 through HDMI, and also handles SD / HD sources from component/s-video/composite just fine.

It's pretty good about maintaining aspect ratios, and will happily do 1:1 for 1080p content.So when playing 16:9 sources you see black bars above and below the image?

[mariner]

Same result, most info (as shown in the samples) is missing...

Thanks for the info.

Best regards.

[Blue_MiSfit]

So when playing 16:9 sources you see black bars above and below the image?

That's correct. There is no scaling happening. Just 1:1 pixel mapping.