Windows 7, x264, and Media Center Extenders

[Crono141]

Well, the windows 7 beta was "officially" unleashed upon the public on Friday. Windows 7 promises integrated support for h264 content. Additionally, it claims to be able to send that same h264 content to media center extenders natively, without the need of third party transcoding programs such as transcode360 or TVersity.

Well, I've been testing at these claims and so far I'm disappointed. It seems that Divx and Xvid do come across the MCE without need of a third party transcoder. I even managed to get a h264 file with 2 channel AAC audio to play without a hitch.

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to get a 5.1 stream to the extenders. I tried h264 with AC3 in m2ts, but that didn't go at all. It seems Win7 only really like h264 in the mp4 container, and then only with AAC 2 channel.

Has anyone had a chance to play with this yet besides me? Has anyone had any success with multichannel h264 on media center extenders?

[Atak_Snajpera]

It seems Win7 only really like h264 in the mp4 container, and then only with AAC 2 channel.
The sane story with XBox360. only mp4 with stereo :)

[Crono141]

I guess I should clarify: I can get h264 with multichannel to play on the PC in WMC and WMP12(?), but the extender only likes 2 channel audio. I'm currently encoding a movie with a max width of 640, because I heard a rumor somewhere on these internets that 640 is the maximum width the extender supports for h264. After that i'll try to encode standard width with 2 channel audio and see if that plays. If so, I'll be quite disappointed, because whats the point of h264 2 channel support with no 5 channel support?

The whole reason I'm going through this again, is because I recently acquired a PS3, and it playes H264 with AC3, H264 with multichannel AAC, and just about anything in between. I'd like to be able to rip my DVDs to a universal format that plays on the 360 and the PS3 so I don't have to go and buy more PS3 or similar devices to get maximum compatibility (I already have 2 Xbox360s).

[Jeff Flowerday]

I can't get h264 to play from a mkv container.

I installed haali splitter and madflac. vc1, mpeg2 play fine, h264 not at all.

[Atak_Snajpera]

but the extender only likes 2 channel audio.
The sane story with XBox360. only mp4 with stereo

Forced compatibilty with Microsoft's console ... Do you understand now?

[Crono141]

I understood before. I just realized what I'd said was not what I'd meant and wanted to clarify.

This Most recent encode didn't work either. Its odd, because the error isn't "incompatible format or codec" but "files required to play not found, restart extender or computer".

[R3Z]

Forced compatibilty with Microsoft's console ... Do you understand now?

Microsoft gave an inch when asked to give a Mile.

[CruNcher]

The only full Interoperable solution you will be happy with as a Microsoft Customer is WMV and Windows Media Audio 5.1 Channel sound unless Million of Microsoft Customers write to them and force them to support 5.1 AAC :)
That is reallity they try to force you to use their stuff the options you have are limited either throw away their Hardware or Fight for it supporting more formats then their own in a interoperable way :)

[Ronin-7]

I've had some success with Win7 Beta1 64-bit and the Xbox MCX

Everything was encoded with Ripbot264 and I was able to play
H.264 High Profile M2TS with AC3 5.1 (played a 1080p video too but its a bit buggy)

H.264 High Profile MP4 with AAC HE or AAC LC (2 channel)

It would not play the AAC 5.1 Ripbot264 created though it played fine in WMP12 and Win7 media center. There is supposed to be a transcoder built in to help when media does not play I'm guessing its not working in beta 1.

However some test AAC-HE/LC MP4 videos I made using XviD4PSP caused the Xbox MCX to freak out and stop all video playback until it was restarted.

I also tried some videos encoded from Nero v8 and only the MP4 with 2 channel audio would play the AAC 5.1 and AC3 from Nero would not in the Xbox MCX (Nero's AAC 5.1 plays fine in WMP12/WMC and the AC3 MP4 plays video but no audio)

Overall it sorta works but its pretty buggy, obviously given its beta 1 status. Try Ripbot264 Crono141 if you want to get some videos working.

As far as I can tell the Xbox dash is still the same though the M2TS/MP4 videos now show if streaming from WMP12 but its still H.264/AAC-LC in MP4 only.

[Crono141]

I'll have to try RipBot264. I made several h264\AC3 rips, and I couldn't get them to play in Win7 at all (wmc or wmp12). I used autoMKV for my conversion though. My next idea was to create an mp4 with 2 audio tracks. The first being 2 channel AAC for wmc compatibility, the other AAC 5.1 for ps3 playback. I've already walked the WMV5.1 road, and now I have a hdd full of movies that don't look quite as good as dvd, and no audio on ps3.

[clsid]

The H.264 decoder of Windows7 only works in WMP12/MC (since it uses Media Foundation instead of DirectShow/DMO) and only for MP4/MOV files.

So for MKV files you still need ffdshow/coreavc/divx to decode the video.

MPEG-4 decoding does work in other DirectShow players since that is a DMO decoder.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

The H.264 decoder of Windows7 only works in WMP12/MC (since it uses Media Foundation instead of DirectShow/DMO) and only for MP4/MOV files.

Oh why, oh why, did they cripple H.264 support in that bad way? :rolleyes:

It basically means that Windows 7 still doesn't support any useful video format natively (in a useful way). What a bummer! :mad:

Would it be so hard to include ffdshow in their 3,2 GB installer image? :p

[qyqgpower]

So now it's maybe a chance to develop a media foundation (and keeps directshow compatibility) based player for power user :)
Since both vista and 7 have the infrastructure of media foundation (don't know XP with the dot net runtime)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

So now it's maybe a chance to develop a media foundation (and keeps directshow compatibility) based player for power user :)
Since both vista and 7 have the infrastructure of media foundation (don't know XP with the dot net runtime)

What is MediaFoundation good for? What does it do better than DirectShow?

Since it's obviously based on the .NET Framework, Codecs will be either sloooow or implemented as "unmanaged" code. In the latter case one could implement a DirectShow from the very beginning...

So is it just another lousy attempt to get XP users to switch over to Vista or Win7, just like DirectX 10 ???


[EDIT]

There you got it, I was right:
For some time there will be a co-existence of Media Foundation and DirectShow. Media Foundation will not be available for previous Windows versions, including Windows XP.

Another (useless) attempt of blackmail ...

[CruNcher]

Though Media Foundation isn't a bad move it is needed to get finaly away from all Problems Dshow brought upon Windows User/Devs :)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

it is needed to get finaly away from all Problems Dshow brought upon Windows User/Devs :)

Any examples? :)

[CruNcher]

Sure it's main reason is better content Protection but Windows users will have to accept that sooner or later Content won't be available anymore for Window XP that won't happen today or tomorrow but sometime in the not so distant future.
Sure one thing that stresses me about being a XP user is IO prioritizing and the Video Handling for example you have a Game that uses Dshow in XP for showing it's Cutscenes and in the Background you have a application running that is doing some stuff on your HardDrive IO it won't happen anymore starting with the Vista Kernel and the MultiMedia Scheduler that this Background activity disturbs your Video watching experience (especially if you also use dynamic clock switching eg PowerSave Modes).
Not many user actually realize that but Process Priority Handling is much better since the Vista Kernel also EVR and Media Foundation doing it's parts here by keeping the playback steady and Glitch Free and in a better quality, another important thing is you can use DXVA outside of the Directshow Framework (though their are already ways coming up for XP for certain Formats to do that outside and being Renderer independent).

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Sure it's main reason is better content Protection but Windows users will have to accept that sooner or later Content won't be available anymore for Window XP that won't happen today or tomorrow but sometime in the not so distant future.

That's not a reason for MediaFoundation, but a strong reason against it! (form the user's perspective, of course)

Also many online stores are moving away from DRM infected files now, as they have realized that customers don't accept all the restrictions the industry tries to put on them ;)

So it seems M$ has missed the trend once again ...

[CruNcher]

LoRd_MuldeR only the current DRM age failed you have no idea whats cooking up in the Labs of the Big Hardware Players and Microsoft is just preparing for that and actively working on it. In the not so distant future even your Network will realize you trying to transfer copyrighted content to where it doesn't belong without rights for this transaction, tough people wont realize that those systems will be brough upon them anymore they will just accept them :D.
Do you really believe we could stop TPM ? it's waiting to get active in every new PC these days just that the switch get pulled and it will do it's Protection work for the Industry, it's just sleeping and waits for the right moment and what do they have to fear with all those .NET coders these days anyways ;).

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Do you really believe we could stop TPM ?

Yes, we can stop DRM easily. Don't buy DRM infected media, use OpenSource software and that's it :rolleyes:

Also a TPM itself isn't a bad thing at all. It was specified by the Trusted Computing Group to improve the security of operating systems.
DRM is only one application out of many. There are various beneficial applications of a TPM.

But I think we are getting a bit off-topic here...

[HookedOnTV]

I also have only had success with h264 video in the mp4 container with 2 channel sound. Seems like it would be harder to cripple things to work so poorly than just making it work. Really, is h264/ac3 in m2ts so much to ask for?

[clsid]

Did some testing with subtitles in WMP. DirectVobSub loads for IDX/SUB but not for SRT subs.

[Crono141]

I've had some success with Win7 Beta1 64-bit and the Xbox MCX

Everything was encoded with Ripbot264 and I was able to play
H.264 High Profile M2TS with AC3 5.1 (played a 1080p video too but its a bit buggy)

H.264 High Profile MP4 with AAC HE or AAC LC (2 channel)

It would not play the AAC 5.1 Ripbot264 created though it played fine in WMP12 and Win7 media center. There is supposed to be a transcoder built in to help when media does not play I'm guessing its not working in beta 1.

However some test AAC-HE/LC MP4 videos I made using XviD4PSP caused the Xbox MCX to freak out and stop all video playback until it was restarted.

I also tried some videos encoded from Nero v8 and only the MP4 with 2 channel audio would play the AAC 5.1 and AC3 from Nero would not in the Xbox MCX (Nero's AAC 5.1 plays fine in WMP12/WMC and the AC3 MP4 plays video but no audio)

Overall it sorta works but its pretty buggy, obviously given its beta 1 status. Try Ripbot264 Crono141 if you want to get some videos working.

As far as I can tell the Xbox dash is still the same though the M2TS/MP4 videos now show if streaming from WMP12 but its still H.264/AAC-LC in MP4 only.

Can you please detail exactly what settings you used for RipBot264 to get h264/ac3 in m2ts to play on Media Center Extender. I just finished an encode that didn't work, and I just found all the possible settings inside the program. h264/AC3 in m2ts would be perfect if I can get it to play in an Extender.

[Snowknight26]

The H.264 decoder of Windows7 only works in WMP12/MC (since it uses Media Foundation instead of DirectShow/DMO) and only for MP4/MOV files.
Better late than never, but also with m2ts files.

[Ronin-7]

Can you please detail exactly what settings you used for RipBot264 to get h264/ac3 in m2ts to play on Media Center Extender. I just finished an encode that didn't work, and I just found all the possible settings inside the program. h264/AC3 in m2ts would be perfect if I can get it to play in an Extender.

What I used in Ripbot was the
Level 4.0 profile
audio = copy stream
Save as Blu-ray disc [look in bdmv\stream for video]

Thats all I did, the source material were some mpeg-2 clips I had.

Xvid4PSP also managed to output a working one select M2TS as container and copy audio and that worked for me.

[Now maybe there is something else going as I installed Ripbot264/ffdshow on the Win7 box and it worked perfectly, maybe the transcoder is active and working in the background which is why M2TS are playing for me but I cant really tell as the MCX gives no info about the video that is playing]

Playback was buggy though so you couldn't rely on it for normal usage, for example seeking in M2TS is broken in WMP12/WMC anyway.

I used the feedback tool about the various issues above so hopefully comes beta 2 we'll see some improvement.

[Jay Bee]

The H.264 decoder of Windows7 only works in WMP12/MC (since it uses Media Foundation instead of DirectShow/DMO) and only for MP4/MOV files.

Are you sure? I couldn't get it to connect to any splitter but it does work in DVBViewer.

[Crono141]

Weird, thats exactly what I did with no success. Only difference is I'm running 32 bit win7. Do you have ffdshow set to decode h264? I've also left feedback asking for support for multichannel ac3 and aac in m2ts and mp4 containers.

EDIT: Turning of H264 decoding in FFDshow didn't help me. I have noticed that MCE now plays all the old Divx/Xvid content natively, which is very nice.

The next thing I think I'm going to have to settle for is 2 channel AAC in mp4, but encode it as Dolby Pro Logic II. I'm no expert when it comes to DPLII. How does it compare (as far as channel separation/quality) to its source AC3? If its "close enough" I'll just run with that, as my receiver does DPLII.

[Crono141]

Just to update and bump: the best solution right now is to encode DVD to h264/2 channel AAC with Dolby Pro Logic II. While not "true surround" I've found DPLII to be close enough, at least for my uses. Hopefully, since MS is pushing the whole "Windows 7 is built using user feedback" line, they'll take the user feedback submitted by members of this forum and build in h264/AC3 in their final win7 build. So in other words, if you want an instant gratification solution, h264/DPLII is the way to go. If you want to back up your DVDs once, I'd wait until Win 7 Beta 2 or final to see if they'll add in this feature.

In other news: Windows 7 is so much better than vista, it isn't even funny. I believe Vista will go down as the "Windows Millennium" of this generation of OS's, with Windows 7 being the new XP.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

In other news: Windows 7 is so much better than vista, it isn't even funny.

Do you have anything more specific? Since the H.264 and MKV support turned out to be more or less useless, I wonder whether any of the other promises prove true.

For example: Did they reduce the install size of Windows 7 significantly compared to Vista? And is UAC really less annoying than it used to be under Vista?

[Dark Eiri]

@LoRd_MuldeR: Yes and yes. The 7 Ultimate takes about 8 GB of HDD space once installed. Vista Ultimate takes about ~13 GB. And UAC is REALLY better, not annoying at all, buf of course, you can disable it easily too.

[Crono141]

Library's are a cool feature too. Seems much more stable. I've only ever gotten a BSOD when trying to install an incompatible driver. I used to BSOD regularly on vista. I also use my PC in a living room on a large TV, and Windows 7 large fonts are much easier to read than Vista was. The new taskbar is nice, and things take up less room. Performance is nicer, and despite this thread, the added media center functionality is really nice. I don't need transcode 360 any more. It seems DivX/XviD is fully supported for MCE now. My next experiments with DVD backup are going to be with XviD/DivX because AC3 audio is supporting with those formats now. I've never done any DVD backups with XviD though (just WMV and H264), so its going to be another learning process.

[tre31]

I'd wait until Win 7 Beta 2 or final to see if they'll add in this feature.


OT: I think they said there is no beta 2 as such, just one beta (and then possibly release candidates? - thats what they usually do)

[Crono141]

I'm really not down with the whole lingo of Beta vs RC's. RC just seems like a fancy name for Beta 2 or 3 or whatever. :p

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I'm really not down with the whole lingo of Beta vs RC's. RC just seems like a fancy name for Beta 2 or 3 or whatever. :p

The difference is that a "beta" is an unfinished test version, while a "release candidate" (RC) is a version that might actually be released.

If any bugs are found in a RC, then a new RC needs to be made. This process is repeated until the very last RC version is renamed to "Final".

[slavickas]

and RCs are "feature complete", you shouldnt expect any new feature added

[Guest]

Attachment deleted. Post large (useless) images elsewhere and link here. Do not use profanity.

[kosmonaut]

Sure it's main reason is better content Protection ...

So, has anyone found anything about Media Foundation that is actually of major value? Or is it really just about DRM? I haven't tried Windows 7 yet but I would think better integration with hardware acceleration could be seen as a true value?

[Crono141]

Back on topic: I've decided to go with XviD/AC3. Plays natively in ps3, plays natively on x360 dash, and win7 transcodes it to mce. Larger file size, but I got the space.

Edit: Now I'm not sure again, because the wife just got a zune 120, and we discovered that it doesn't like xvid/ac3 in an avi container, and all the old registry hacks don't work in the new zune software. Bummer.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

So, has anyone found anything about Media Foundation that is actually of major value?

The current status is: Media Foundation decoders and splitters (like Microsofts H.264 and MKV filters) currently work with WMP12 and MediaCenter only.

Decide yourself whether this is of any value for you. For me it isn't, but I don't miss it either. We really have enough great OpenSource alternatives...

[Toti]

I like the new Windows 7, it finally got to work Hardware acceleration. My .wmv do get accelerated uses about 15~25% cpu and .ts or .m2ts with AVC/AC3 uses from 1~5% CPU. Amazing that H.264 works easier and better than its native .wmv Also, note that the new media center has "Movie Library" meaning that if you open a folder drop the movie in in wmv, m2ts or ts it reads it great and has "resume" memory that was only previously available on .dvr-ms only and if you drop a .jpg file with the movie cover name it "folder.jpg" and it will appear as the cover page.

[Snowknight26]

It does have some limitations:
No TrueHD, no DTS, no deblocking (!), no runtimes for .m2ts files, no track switching (?), no VC-1 in .m2ts (works when haali media splitter is installed though, but I think that breaks H.264 in .m2ts, can't remember on the latter issue).

[LoRd_MuldeR]

no deblocking (!)

No deblocking for h.264 ???

Since deblocking is a mandatory part of h.264, that would mean their h.264 is broken...

[Toti]

It does have some limitations:
No TrueHD, no DTS, no deblocking (!), no runtimes for .m2ts files, no track switching (?), no VC-1 in .m2ts (works when haali media splitter is installed though, but I think that breaks H.264 in .m2ts, can't remember on the latter issue).

True to everything you said. If you install Haali or FFDshow it will break the AVC Windows 7 codec. The advantage of the W7 AVC codec is that it uses acceleration so well that a 1080p AVC video seems like you are manipulating a 240X120 asf video.

[atreides93]

Yea it is rather amazing how well Windows 7's accelerated playback of h264 works. Now if only Windows 7 beta came with Windows Movie Maker...I only have DVD maker...

[Snowknight26]

No deblocking for h.264 ???

Since deblocking is a mandatory part of h.264, that would mean their h.264 is broken...

Maybe not deblocking but there is definitely something wrong. I tried VC-1, H.264, Xvid and something else, and I'm pretty sure all of them exhibited the issue.

[RunningSkittle]

Yea it is rather amazing how well Windows 7's accelerated playback of h264 works. Now if only Windows 7 beta came with Windows Movie Maker...I only have DVD maker...

Thats one of the "bloat" wares that MS got rid of, along with calander, mail, messenger...

It is now a part of "windows live"
http://download.live.com/?mkt=en-us

[kosmonaut]

I like the new Windows 7, it finally got to work Hardware acceleration. My .wmv do get accelerated uses about 15~25% cpu and .ts or .m2ts with AVC/AC3 uses from 1~5% CPU. Amazing that H.264 works easier and better than its native .wmv Also, note that the new media center has "Movie Library" meaning that if you open a folder drop the movie in in wmv, m2ts or ts it reads it great and has "resume" memory that was only previously available on .dvr-ms only and if you drop a .jpg file with the movie cover name it "folder.jpg" and it will appear as the cover page.

Interesting. Looks like I should take it out for a test ride after all. ;)

[nm]

I like the new Windows 7, it finally got to work Hardware acceleration. My .wmv do get accelerated uses about 15~25% cpu and .ts or .m2ts with AVC/AC3 uses from 1~5% CPU. Amazing that H.264 works easier and better than its native .wmv
Are you perhaps using an NVIDIA GPU that doesn't have full VC-1 hardware decoding?

[Toti]

Actually I am using ATI 2600 XT. It does accelerate VC1 since Vista has CPU 50~70% and Windows 7 15~25%.

One more issue I get is the AVC/AC3 video has the time line screwup meaning that I can not fast forward or rewind with the Media Center Remote. Any suggestions?

[Toti]

Windows 7 does work natively with H.264. However, H.264 containers do not FF/RR, on either .mp4 .m2ts .ts will this be fixed on the final release lets see.

However, I noticed that .mpg does work well. Just remux your AVC/AC3 from m2ts or ts into .mpg and works flawlessly.