What is BD-9?

[n0mag!c]

@alluringreality
all Blu-ray players are required to play true BD-9 material.
If what you are calling BD-9 was really BD-9 it would play on players that do not support AVCHD, and it would play on the PS3.
I simply think people here are incorrectly using the term BD-9 when no one has at all given a way that it's possible to actually create true BD-9 at home. I certainly would like to be able to create a true BD-9 at home, because of the low cost and wide compatibility, but instead all the BD-9 related discussion seems to concern software such as tsMuxer.

Can you please clearly tell us what is BD-9?
As far as I can see, you think that:
1) "Real" BD-9 can't be made at home.
2) PS3 can't play "real" BD-9.
3) What can be played by PS3 or other SABDP is not "real" BD-9, but AVCHD.
Can we generate "real" BD-9 with Scenarist BDMV?
Can we generate "real" BD-9 with AnyDVD ripper and strip some data to get BD-9 size?

[ron spencer]

blue ray authoring to dual layer dvd...+r DL

[n0mag!c]

Then how about my two last questions?

[Guest]

Define "real".

[n0mag!c]

This is exactly what I want to know from alluringreality!
His post confuses me a bit...

[idbirch2]

Is he under the impression a "real" one has AACS?

[mmace]

surely a BD-9, if it's different to AVCHD, would be Blu-ray structure on a DVD dual layer but can have MPEG2 or VC-1 codecs in addition to just AVC/h.264 that AVCHD has?

[idbirch2]

AVCHD does not have to be MPEG4 video, it can be VC-1 and MPEG2 also. It seems AVCHD camcorders always(?) record in H264 but the spec itself supports all the HD codecs.

[MadMonkey57]

...Can you please clearly tell us what is BD-9?...

I've read this (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) once again.
What I read is that a BD-9 is BD-ROM AV (HDMV, BD-J), possibly (or enforcing, that's not clear to me) including AACS, BD+, ROM Mark on a pre-recorded DVD-ROM SL or DL.
The only difference I can see is we home users use DVD-+R/W and not DVD-ROM (do you see otherwise ?).

3) What can be played by PS3 or other SABDP is not "real" BD-9, but AVCHD...

First it depends on the SAP. Some (for instance jdobbs' Sony SAP if I remember correctly) play BD content on DVD-+R/W, and that is not AVCHD. Some others play hybrid AVCHD/BD (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828) (like the Panasonic DMP-BD35). Some don't seem to play anything on DVD-+R/W (might be a crippled firmware though...). Second, assuming we can't create BD9 (BD-ROM AV on DVD-ROM being impossible for most of us, or whatever the reason might be), we still can do better than "just" AVCHD by going BD on DVD-+R/W or AVCHD/BD on DVD-+R/W. The hybrid AVCHD/BD approach may have more limitations (i.e BD-Java).


Can we generate "real" BD-9 with Scenarist BDMV?
Can we generate "real" BD-9 with AnyDVD ripper and strip some data to get BD-9 size?
I can't comment on Scenarist (way too expensive for me :D) but I can share my experience with other software, it might partly answer the question.
Regarding tsmuxer's output, it is hybrid AVCHD/BD.
Adobe Encore CS4 (and probably other commercial software) and BD-Rebuilder (AFAICT) produce BD output. If needed, those can be converted to hybrid AVCHD/BD (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828), but watch out for the limitations mentioned above.

[G_M_C]

Psst: On the DVD-ROM thing ... it's very easy to simply "bitset" my drive to "DVD-ROM" in stead of DVD-R(W). If that's the only difference, than DVD-ROM might be more commonplace than you suggest ;)

[n0mag!c]

AVCHD does not have to be MPEG4 video, it can be VC-1 and MPEG2 also. It seems AVCHD camcorders always(?) record in H264 but the spec itself supports all the HD codecs.
Here (http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html) is written, that video can only be H.264. Where you get info about VC-1?

[idbirch2]

You're right, I can't find any official documentation that says AVCHD supports the other codecs but if I author an AVCHD structure with VC-1 or MPEG2, the Playstation 3 still detects it as AVCHD and plays it fine. Same goes for all the HD audio formats. Maybe the PS3 is inaccurate?

[MadMonkey57]

You're right, I can't find any official documentation that says AVCHD supports the other codecs but if I author an AVCHD structure with VC-1 or MPEG2, the Playstation 3 still detects it as AVCHD and plays it fine. Same goes for all the HD audio formats. Maybe the PS3 is inaccurate?

A clear hybrid AVCHD/BD case... ;)

[alluringreality]

Can you please clearly tell us what is BD-9?

BD-9 is an official Blu-ray format. See the link that MadMonkey57 posted (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) for further basic information. A true BD-9 disk can be expected to play on all players.


1) "Real" BD-9 can't be made at home.

In well over a year I've yet to read of a way to clearly create BD-9 at home. Most discussion on this forum for what people are calling BD-9 has to do with TsRemux or tsMuxer, which are simply based around AVCHD files. TsRemux, tsMuxer, or AVCHD-Patcher outputs all appear similar, and they only appear to play on AVCHD compatible players. A number of Blu-ray players are not AVCHD compatible, so they will not play disks from those programs.


2) PS3 can't play "real" BD-9.

Like any other player, the PS3 should be expected to play a true BD-9 disk. The only issue there is that I still have yet to run across a way to create a writable DVD that is recognized as BD-9 by most players. MadMonkey57 addressed this in response to #3, in that it's real hit or miss what an individual player might play when simply putting an official Blu-ray format on writable DVD media.


3) What can be played by PS3 or other SABDP is not "real" BD-9, but AVCHD.

The PS3 will play disks that fall within AVCHD compatability, because the PS3 is an AVCHD compatible player. Other AVCHD compatible players will also play disks based around AVCHD. In testing, players that are not AVCHD compatible will not play DVD disks from tsMuxer, TsRemux, or AVCHD-Patcher. Those programs use an AVCHD file structure, so it's to be expected that only AVCHD compatible players would play the disks.

Again, the PS3 should be exptected to play true BD-9. It's well-documented how to create AVCHD compatible disks at home. On the other hand I've yet to see a clear way to create actual BD-9 at home.


Can we generate "real" BD-9 with Scenarist BDMV?

I've only used the under $1000 authoring programs. The Scenarist related guides I've ran across for making playable DVD disks for the PS3 were changing things to be AVCHD compatible.


Can we generate "real" BD-9 with AnyDVD ripper and strip some data to get BD-9 size?

The thread you quoted from was about putting a Blu-ray format on DVD media. If the PS3 and most any other players do not play it, then the disk is not being recognized as BD-9. My objection to jdobbs saying that he was creating a BD-9 is that unless most any other player plays the disk then it's not really BD-9.

[Furiousflea]

BD-9 is an official Blu-ray format. See the link that MadMonkey57 posted (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) for further basic information. A true BD-9 disk can be expected to play on all players.




In well over a year I've yet to read of a way to clearly create BD-9 at home. Most discussion on this forum for what people are calling BD-9 has to do with TsRemux or tsMuxer, which are simply based around AVCHD files. TsRemux, tsMuxer, or AVCHD-Patcher outputs all appear similar, and they only appear to play on AVCHD compatible players. A number of Blu-ray players are not AVCHD compatible, so they will not play disks from those programs.




Like any other player, the PS3 should be expected to play a true BD-9 disk. The only issue there is that I still have yet to run across a way to create a writable DVD that is recognized as BD-9 by most players. MadMonkey57 addressed this in response to #3, in that it's real hit or miss what an individual player might play when simply putting an official Blu-ray format on writable DVD media.




The PS3 will play disks that fall within AVCHD compatability, because the PS3 is an AVCHD compatible player. Other AVCHD compatible players will also play disks based around AVCHD. In testing, players that are not AVCHD compatible will not play DVD disks from tsMuxer, TsRemux, or AVCHD-Patcher. Those programs use an AVCHD file structure, so it's to be expected that only AVCHD compatible players would play the disks.

Again, the PS3 should be exptected to play true BD-9. It's well-documented how to create AVCHD compatible disks at home. On the other hand I've yet to see a clear way to create actual BD-9 at home.




I've only used the under $1000 authoring programs. The Scenarist related guides I've ran across for making playable DVD disks for the PS3 were changing things to be AVCHD compatible.




The thread you quoted from was about putting a Blu-ray format on DVD media. If the PS3 and most any other players do not play it, then the disk is not being recognized as BD-9. My objection to jdobbs saying that he was creating a BD-9 is that unless most any other player plays the disk then it's not really BD-9.


Wrong in so many ways in my opinion. I think the real issue here is media compatibility. Remember the early days of DVD and most players lacking support for DVD-R playback? These are those days. I believe that BD-Rebuilder and the like are churning out genuine "BD9"s. It's simply that the players arern't eqipped\deliberately molested to play them due to...

MEDIA!!!

Have you seen a "real" BD9 yet, as in on a DVD silver? Nope....There you go then!

If your logic is to be followed then a BD9 as such doesn't actually exist in this world at all. Even though there is a defined standard for it.

This is obviously just down to poxy crippled firmware.

[laserfan]

My objection to jdobbs saying that he was creating a BD-9 is that unless most any other player plays the disk then it's not really BD-9.And you care because....? Why?

Since the discs play on my players I don't give a rip whether they meet some sort of naming convention or standard or whatever the heck you are expending energy & bandwidth over! :p

[n0mag!c]

Thank you for your explanations, I can see clearerly now.Can we generate "real" BD-9 with Scenarist BDMV?
I've only used the under $1000 authoring programs. The Scenarist related guides I've ran across for making playable DVD disks for the PS3 were changing things to be AVCHD compatible.
I mentioned scenarist just for example, but you are right, it concerns to all bdmv authoring tools.

Can we generate "real" BD-9 with AnyDVD ripper and strip some data to get BD-9 size?
I just done this test (This is faster than authoring :)). I cut main movie of the blu-ray (just binary cut proper M2TS file, that's all modification) to fit the DVD+RW size, burn it and try to play on PS3:
BD-RE: plays fine (as BDMV)
DVD-RW: doesn't play ("data disk")
Then I patched "index.bdmv" with "AVCHD-Patcher.exe" and burn again on DVD+RW. It plays fine as AVCHD.

The only issue there is that I still have yet to run across a way to create a writable DVD that is recognized as BD-9 by most players.
Does it really matter what exactly the player names the disk - "BDMV" or "AVCHD"? For me, personally, it doesn't practically matters since the only difference is "index.bdmv" file. :)
But, you are right again, techically this is AVCHD disk, and not BD-9.

[alluringreality]

And you care because....? Why?

If it was possible to really create a BD-9 then anyone with a Blu-ray player could play it. If a disk is not really BD-9 then it will only play on the handful of players that happen to play it. The PS3 is the highest selling player, so really at the very least it's nice if the PS3 can play a format. Many more players are AVCHD compatible than a couple years ago when players started coming out, but still not all players will play AVCHD.

[alluringreality]

If your logic is to be followed then a BD9 as such doesn't actually exist in this world at all.

If my logic is to be followed you probably have to pay AACS fees to create a BD-9. If that's not the case I'd certainly like to hear how it's possible with typical writable media.

[alluringreality]

Then I patched "index.bdmv" with "AVCHD-Patcher.exe" and burn again on DVD+RW. It plays fine as AVCHD.

Have you tried BD-J? In the AVSforums MozartMan mentioned he ran into issues with BD-J with testing he had done.

[kabanero]

Have you tried BD-J? In the AVSforums MozartMan mentioned he ran into issues with BD-J with testing he had done.
Yes, BD-J does not work on "AVCHD" disk, only standard BDMV.
I authored BD-J project with Corel DVD MovieFactory 7 using BD-J template. Then used AVCHD-patcher and hex editor. PS3 didn't play that disk.

[MadMonkey57]

...What I read is that a BD-9 is BD-ROM AV (HDMV, BD-J), possibly (or enforcing, that's not clear to me) including AACS, BD+, ROM Mark on a pre-recorded DVD-ROM SL or DL...

... it's very easy to simply "bitset" my drive to "DVD-ROM" in stead of DVD-R(W)...

...It's simply that the players arern't eqipped\deliberately molested to play them due to...

MEDIA!!!...

...This is obviously just down to poxy crippled firmware.

I didn't know about booktype bitsetting... Sure it can't hurt to try.
I'll burn BD (not AVCHD/BD!) content onto red laser DVD, making sure booktype is DVD-ROM.

[rack04]

I didn't know about booktype bitsetting... Sure it can't hurt to try.
I'll burn BD (not AVCHD/BD!) content onto red laser DVD, making sure booktype is DVD-ROM.

My drive is set to automatically booktype to DVD-ROM and I still have issues with BD9.

[ron spencer]

this is a firmware issue....if you look around the net (avsforums etc) you will find that most standalone players will not play this stuff, or even BD-Rs (stupid blu ray)

for example, the june firmware of this year for my LG bh200 HD DVD/Blu Ray player took away the ability to play BD-R or ANY video on blanks other than DVD-R....stupid. I called LG and they said they took the feature out...no reason why. So I flashed back to a previous firmware and everything worked again.

If yours does not play, then it is most because your firmware in your player is saying you are SOL.

[MadMonkey57]

My drive is set to automatically booktype to DVD-ROM and I still have issues with BD9.

this is a firmware issue.......

Yeah, I never really thought it would work (the test was in last position on my to do list... ;))


...for example, the june firmware of this year for my LG bh200 HD DVD/Blu Ray player took away the ability to play BD-R or ANY video on blanks other than DVD-R....stupid. I called LG and they said they took the feature out...no reason why...

I don't understand the logic behind such a decision... This is ridiculous! I mean, what is the purpose of removing a feature to make a device less compatible ??? :confused: It gets people angry, yelling at companies on the phone and on the web, ends up scaring potential buyers... :confused::confused:

EDIT: unless you have new hardware you want to sell... :devil::devil::devil:

[laserfan]

I don't understand the logic behind such a decision [to remove recordable media playback capability]... This is ridiculous! I mean, what is the purpose of removing a feature to make a device less compatible ??? :confused: It gets people angry...Simple: recordable media was NEVER MEANT to be used on stb players. The industry doesn't want people playing homebrew movies on their stb players. Period. They want folks to play expensive mfr-pressed BD discs ONLY. Content-providers expected that all BD players would play only studio-pressed and DRM'ed discs, which were certainly not copyable by average Joes. But here we are. ;)

The AVCHD (camcorder) format is another story I think. Dunno much about that myself except that I think if you buy a Panasonic HD camcorder that makes AVCHD discs, they will play in Panasonic stb players.

[deank]

I guess it won't take long before sony employs DNAS in their SAPs :)

Or probably restrict firmwares to read only retail BDs (the way Playstation2 accepts only original DVD-ROMs and PS3 accepts only original BD-ROMs for game playing).

Still they won't remove SD/CF slots for AVCHD.

[ron spencer]

People are authoring hd movies. So units eventually will need to play blanks. This will not be for some time though as most people use DVD

[SomeJoe]

The AVCHD (camcorder) format is another story I think. Dunno much about that myself except that I think if you buy a Panasonic HD camcorder that makes AVCHD discs, they will play in Panasonic stb players.

Yes, I believe I read that Sony and Panasonic are the inventors of the AVCHD format, and I believe both of them produce HD camcorders (such as Sony's HDR-UX20) that can record in AVCHD directly to DVD media.

As such, Sony and Panasonic have a vested interest in making sure their stand-alone players play the AVCHD format.

The discs I've authored are technically not AVCHD because they don't have the right folder structure, they have a Blu-Ray folder structure. However, on my Sony BDP-S350 stand-alone player, any DVD media containing high-definition content is recognized as "AVCHD" no matter what standardized folder structure is used.

I suspect the Panasonic stand-alone players are similar.

I would wager that LG and Samsung are removing AVCHD format support for two reasons:

1. Free up space in the firmware for BD-J or other feature compatibility.
2. Discourage the consumer from purchasing a competitor's camcorder (Sony or Panasonic) since AVCHDs made with those camcorders will not play.

[MadMonkey57]

...for example, the june firmware of this year for my LG bh200 HD DVD/Blu Ray player took away the ability to play BD-R or ANY video on blanks other than DVD-R....stupid. I called LG and they said they took the feature out...no reason why...

...I don't understand the logic behind such a decision... This is ridiculous! I mean, what is the purpose of removing a feature to make a device less compatible ??? :confused: It gets people angry, yelling at companies on the phone and on the web, ends up scaring potential buyers... :confused::confused:

EDIT: unless you have new hardware you want to sell... :devil::devil::devil:

Quoted from Doom9's news for january the 8th:

LG also has some new Blu-ray hardware: The BD370 and BD390 are both profile 2.0 with the latter one having the required storage integrated plus analog 7.1 audio output. No price has been set yet and the players will arrive in Q2 and Q3 respectively

[Trahald]

@alluringreality
I am interested to hear your reply to what someone mentioned before. (you picked a sentenced and replied to it but didnt address the body of the statement) Early dvd-r's did not play in all dvd settops. When a persons settop died, care had to be taken when replacing it to ensure your backups were usable. If you were around then to say so, would you say home made dvd-5 was some sort of anomaly to a few players?

[Golgot13]

Hi all (Hi Trahald we don't see since many time ;) )


Yes, BD-J does not work on "AVCHD" disk, only standard BDMV.
I authored BD-J project with Corel DVD MovieFactory 7 using BD-J template. Then used AVCHD-patcher and hex editor. PS3 didn't play that disk.


Last firmwares of PS3 are many BD-J restriction, today we can not play
a BD-J homemade from harddisk of PS3 or from DVD-R...




About BD9, it's a BD-ROM AV with bitrate restriction on DVD disc.
It have a specific DVDROM LeadIn, it's encrypted in AACS (mandatory)
with or without BD+ (ROM Mark is not necessary).

[laserfan]

It have a specific DVDROM LeadIn, it's encrypted in AACS (mandatory)If encryption in AACS is mandatory as you've said, since the homebrew discs we're making don't have such AACS in them all it would take to keep players from playing our discs would be for their firmware to ignore all discs w/o AACS?

I don't know how AACS works so dunno if homebrew discs might "fake" this capability?

[MadMonkey57]

We are looking for some kind of "logic" behind AVCHD, BD9, what is playable, what is not, what is standard, ...
I'm beginning to believe that firmware/the industry don't give a f*** about the standard. SAPs are made to play commercial $$$ BDs $$$. Period. Everything else is pure bonus, either purposely (Sony AVCHD playable on Sony SAP...) or not (dumb firmware code).

[alluringreality]

When a persons settop died, care had to be taken when replacing it to ensure your backups were usable.

If you make a Blu-ray (HDMV, or BD-J) on DVD media disk that happens to play in your player today, the situation is similar in that the disk very well might not play on another model player. If you want to use DVD media, and would like the largest possible current player support, then my opinion is to go with AVCHD. I figure AVCHD should remain in a number of players in the future because it's used in some consumer cameras, but the format is simply not supported by all players. Far as I know AVCHD has never been dropped in firmware by a player that lists AVCHD support in the owner's manual.


I am interested to hear your reply to what someone mentioned before.

Even if the above wasn't the intended direction of comment, generally I don't see the point of much speculation, so only what I've replied to seemed most relevant to my perspective.

[kabanero]

Last firmwares of PS3 are many BD-J restriction, today we can not play a BD-J homemade from harddisk of PS3 or from DVD-R...
Are you sure about that?
What application did you use to author BD-J?
And what PS3 firmware allowed to play BD-J disk from hard disk or DVD-R?

[G_M_C]

My drive is set to automatically booktype to DVD-ROM and I still have issues with BD9.

Well, sometimes my BD30 makes "a mistake" when i load a home-made BD9. Most of the time it recoginzes the disk as "AVCHD", but sometimes the display reads BD, the player tries to read it and after a second or two it displays "UNSUPPORT".

I have found no regularity that is reproducable, and the not beeing able to read comes from the fact that the blue laser simply cant read the DVD-RW's i use (i think).

[alluringreality]

when i load a home-made BD9.

The whole point I was getting at in the thread where this started from was that BD-9 really doesn't describe what you're talking about. Blu-ray has a definition of what they mean for BD-9, but to this point no one has ever shared a way to create a writable DVD at home with the same widespread player compatibility as what they have defined. Most people mean AVCHD based file structure when they use BD-9 in this forum, but then some people mean HDMV or BD-J authoring types on DVD when they use BD-9.

the not beeing able to read comes from the fact

Some people seem to think it's completely fine to just use any term however they feel like it, even if the end-result isn't in line with the term being used. Basically I figure they consider my point as nothing more than semantics. The way I look at things is that blurring a term so that it's not well defined simply makes communication and troubleshooting more difficult than necessary. For example I have no idea what you mean by BD-9, so instead I would want to ask how the Y number in XXXX0Y00 that the main, playlist, and clipinf files each start with are numbered in what you are calling BD-9. Generally 0100 seems to be used for DVD media and 0200 seems to be used for Blu-ray media. If I was to make my own baseless guess, I would wonder if maybe your files are using 0200 and it was somehow messing up playback on your player (model and firmware version).

[G_M_C]

The whole point I was getting at in the thread where this started from was that BD-9 really doesn't describe what you're talking about. Blu-ray has a definition of what they mean for BD-9, but to this point no one has ever shared a way to create a writable DVD at home with the same widespread player compatibility as what they have defined. Most people mean AVCHD based file structure when they use BD-9 in this forum, but then some people mean BDMV, HDMV, or BD-J authoring types on DVD when they use BD-9.



Some people seem to think it's completely fine to just use any term however they feel like it, even if the end-result isn't in line with the term being used. Basically I figure they consider my point as nothing more than semantics. The way I look at things is that blurring a term so that it's not well defined simply makes communication and troubleshooting more difficult than necessary. For example I have no idea what you mean by BD-9, so instead I would want to ask how the Y number in XXXX0Y00 that the main, playlist, and clipinf files each start with are numbered in what you are calling BD-9. Generally 0100 seems to be used for DVD media and 0200 seems to be used for Blu-ray media. If I was to make my own baseless guess, I would wonder if maybe your files are using 0200 and it was somehow messing up playback on your player (model and firmware version).

Sorry to butt in here again; But BD9 is a clearly described and standardized format. To be exact; It is defined in the BD-ROM basic format (part 1), file system (part 2) and AV (part 3) specifications.

See also here: http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii

and offcource the appropriate whitebook of the Bluray LLC.

That some players dont handle these dics properly (like mine seems to do) doesnt mean that the term en the created disk isnt "BD9", but it means the SAP is at fault probably.

[turbojet]

To me what separates AVCHD and BD is the structure. I've always seen a retail bluray have a BDMV directory in root, but never PRIVATE in root. The few digicam AVCHD's I've seen have always had PRIVATE in the root, and never a BDMV directory in root. So for me tsmuxer and tsremux output BD, this hybrid stuff I don't know about, I have noticed some changes in playback between tsmuxer index.bdmv and an avchd-patcher index.bdmv. Hex editing the bdmv files from 200 to 100 has never made a difference the few times I've tried it.

Maybe the best way to fix the playback differences between blue and red laser is hacked firmware?

[alluringreality]

for me tsmuxer and tsremux output BD

As far as I can tell those programs seem to be based around AVCHD files, similar to what you'll get by creating AVCHD with commercial authoring software. My opinion is based on what I have found reading online forums including this one, doing testing on what disks play on which players, and basic looks with a hex editor. It seems likely that TsRemux took the Nero AVCHD output and changed NV 4.9.7.2 to read TR 0.0.1.8 in the index.bdmv file. Then as far as I can tell tsMuxer took the AVCHD based output from TsRemux, and this seems reasonable considering the TR listing is exactly the same.

In testing, an AVCHD disk from commercial authoring software plays on the exact same players as tsMuxer disks, but of course commercial software only allows for H.264 video. I most recently tested 10 different model players that Circuit City had in store, and not long after the Samsung 1200 came out I had done similar testing for the players available at that time. I can find absolutely nothing that might indicate the Index and MovieObject files from TsRemux are generally any different from what you'll get by authoring AVCHD using commercial software - aside from the AVC-only video limitation with commercial software. In my player testing and looks at the files, it sure seems reasonable that TsRemux simply based its output on AVCHD from Nero and then tsMuxer took those files for its "Blu-ray" output.


I have noticed some changes in playback between tsmuxer index.bdmv and an avchd-patcher index.bdmv.

Please be more specific for this to be useful. So far I can find little to suspect that running a non-BD-J Blu-ray output through AVCHD-Patcher would be any different than a tsMuxer output in terms of what players DVD media will play back on.


Hex editing the bdmv files from 200 to 100 has never made a difference the few times I've tried it.

In my recent testing the BDP-S550 and BD35 would not play AVCHD-Patcher disks unless INDX0100 and MOBJ0100 were set. After setting those values then AVCHD-Patcher, tsMuxer "Blu-ray" on DVD, and AVCHD from commercial software played back on the exact same players in my testing. On the other hand, putting Blu-ray format on DVD doesn't consistently play back on the same players as AVCHD.

[turbojet]

Quote:
I have noticed some changes in playback between tsmuxer index.bdmv and an avchd-patcher index.bdmv.
Please be more specific for this to be useful. So far I can find little to suspect that running a non-BD-J Blu-ray output through AVCHD-Patcher would be any different than a tsMuxer output in terms of what players DVD media will play back on.


It went from incompatible disc error to playing a title screen then crashing of a BD-RB output on a panasonic BD30. It wasn't BD-J but it had a menu. Hex editing alone changed nothing, nor did hex editing after avchd-patcher.

[MadMonkey57]

To me what separates AVCHD and BD is the structure...

There's more than that. Take a look at both standards...

...So for me tsmuxer and tsremux output BD, this hybrid stuff I don't know about...

Hybrid means the output is built on bits from both standards... This is a way of tricking firmware to play more than just AVCHD. You can't deny this trick exists and works, can you ?

...Maybe the best way to fix the playback differences between blue and red laser is hacked firmware?

Most probably IMO, because firmware seem the cause of all our trouble with BD content on DVD.

[alluringreality]

it means the SAP is at fault probably.

I tried to go and review what I could find that's new since over a year ago. At that time some speculation questioned if Blu-ray on DVD didn't play on many players, such as the PS3, due to AACS. Still at this time no commercially produced BD-9 disks exist for comparison as far as I know, so I really fail to see how one form of speculation is any better than another. The bottom line is still that putting Blu-ray on DVD doesn't play on a majority of players, and there's no way to guess if it might work besides testing each player. Being that BD-9 is an actual Blu-ray format, a disk in line with the intent should play on all players. In over a year and a half, nothing has changed in this area and many players like the PS3 still do not allow for playing Blu-ray on DVD - for whatever reason that no one seems to have yet found a workaround.

[G_M_C]

I tried to go and review what I could find that's new since over a year ago. At that time some speculation questioned if Blu-ray on DVD didn't play on many players, such as the PS3, due to AACS. Still at this time no commercially produced BD-9 disks exist for comparison as far as I know, so I really fail to see how one form of speculation is any better than another. The bottom line is still that putting Blu-ray on DVD doesn't play on a majority of players, and there's no way to guess if it might work besides testing each player. Being that BD-9 is an actual Blu-ray format, a disk in line with the intent should play on all players. In over a year and a half, nothing has changed in this area and many players like the PS3 still do not allow for playing Blu-ray on DVD - for whatever reason that no one seems to have yet found a workaround.

For the purposes i require of the format, my player does what is has to. I've made 576i's, 720p @ 24,25 and even 59,94 and also several 1080p's at several framerates. I've combined those with AC3, DTS and even DTS-MA. Only trueHD i cant get to work properly. Subtitles werent a problem either.

So for me it's an ideal "movie-only" format, chapter skipping, fforward /reverse works, hell it's fine for me. For movies I don't need menu's anyway. And for episodic discs, deank is developing a very good tool, that's getting better every day; Have yet to test it, but i hope it works as intended.

So, to me personally, it dont matter if it's "official" according to standards and it doesnt matter if it works on all players. But that's for me personally ! The problem is that the BD30 doesnt seem to play stuff backed up by BD-rebuilder, "fixed" clpi's are the problem. And those backups play on allmost all players. So my problem might have et to come, the fact that i will not be able to use all programs in the future.

[turbojet]

Ya I know there's more than that between BD and AVCHD when you get into technicalities of it. For instance, AVCHD only supports AC3 and LPCM and 24 mbps video bitrate, BD supports DTS, HD audio formats and 50(?) mbps. I don't have the money or qualifications to get the standards of each.

But from a non-technical point the structure really does define if it's AVCHD or BD from every site that mentions structure and every stream I've seen. Some players will see BD structure on DVD5/9 as AVHCD but put the same content on a BDR and it suddenly becomes a BD.

With TSMuxer and TSRemux uses bits from both BD and AVHCD. Would taking a TSMuxer/TSRemux m2ts and using the rest of the files (while setting 00001.m2ts to play first) from the retail BD be a good test?

Although what people call BD and AVCHD doesn't really matter, it just brings up a lot of confusion.

[MadMonkey57]

...With TSMuxer and TSRemux uses bits from both BD and AVHCD. Would taking a TSMuxer/TSRemux m2ts and using the rest of the files (while setting 00001.m2ts to play first) from the retail BD be a good test?...

I don't know what kind of test you're talking about, but you should keep both M2TS and its fellow CLPI file from tsmuxer. Consider them as a single item.


..Although what people call BD and AVCHD doesn't really matter, it just brings up a lot of confusion...

IMO it brings up a lot of clarity as I like to know precisely what I am dealing with...

[jdobbs]

The problem is that the BD30 doesnt seem to play stuff backed up by BD-rebuilder, "fixed" clpi's are the problem. And those backups play on allmost all players. So my problem might have et to come, the fact that i will not be able to use all programs in the future.Did you know you can turn off the "fixing" in BD Rebuilder? Just add "FIX_CLPI=0" to the "[Options]" area of the INI.

[jdobbs]

As far as I can tell those programs seem to be based around AVCHD files, similar to what you'll get by creating AVCHD with commercial authoring software. I would be interested to know just exactly what is "AVCHD" about TSMUXER and TSREMUX? Not "it looks like" or "it's not the same" or "from what I've heard" -- but exact wording that tells me the difference...

The reason I say this is because I have spent the last six months dumping commercial BD disc files and documenting the contents -- and comparing them to what is in the TSMUXER output.... and I'd sure like to know what it is you've found that is different. As near as I can tell they are just simpler (non menu) versions of BD files.

That said -- I'd also like to make it clear that BD Rebuilder doesn't use the Blu-ray output from TSMUXER anyhow (except in movie-only mode). It only uses the M2TS generated (and some/all portions of the CLPI). The M2TS is simply based on ISO standards and isn't specific to AVCHD or BD. The (smaller) M2TS structure that was generated is then reintegrated into the original disc's structure (changing pointers, indexes, etc.). How can a disc that has the EXACT same structure as the original disc suddenly become "AVCHD"?

I agree that there are players that won't play full disc backups from BD-RB -- but my inclination is to believe that either they don't support BD-9 (whether it is required or not), or (more likely) there is some format bug in BD-RB output that is being overlooked by other players (like the Sony BDP-S301) -- which plays them BD-J, complex menus, mixtures of video compression formats (not just AVC), multiple audio formats, multiple subs and all. And none of those things are included in the AVCHD standard.

[G_M_C]

I would be interested to know just exactly what is "AVCHD" about TSMUXER and TSREMUX? Not "it looks like" or "it's not the same" or "from what I've heard" -- but exact wording that tells me the difference...

The reason I say this is because I have spent the last six months dumping commercial BD disc files and documenting the contents -- and comparing them to what is in the TSMUXER output.... and I'd sure like to know what it is you've found that is different. As near as I can tell they are just simpler (non menu) versions of BD files.

That said -- I'd also like to make it clear that BD Rebuilder doesn't use the Blu-ray output from TSMUXER anyhow (except in movie-only mode). It only uses the M2TS generated (and some/all portions of the CLPI). The M2TS is simply based on ISO standards and isn't specific to AVCHD or BD. The (smaller) M2TS structure that was generated is then reintegrated into the original disc's structure (changing pointers, indexes, etc.). How can a disc that has the EXACT same structure as the original disc suddenly become "AVCHD"?

I agree that there are players that won't play full disc backups from BD-RB -- but my inclination is to believe that either they don't support BD-9 (whether it is required or not), or (more likely) there is some format bug in BD-RB output that is being overlooked by other players (like the Sony BDP-S301) -- which plays them BD-J, complex menus, mixtures of video compression formats (not just AVC), multiple audio formats, multiple subs and all. And none of those things are not included in the AVCHD standard.

Sorry to have to report that i havent tested BD-rebuilder thoroughly yet; That simply because i'm used to doning is "manually" atm, as it was before bd-rebuilder and/or multiAVCHD came into beeing. Waht you describe should work, even with my "picky" bd30, that doesnt like fixCLPI.

I've yet to find the time to expiriment more exstencively with both, but i've got just the project to do that with here at hand. I'll keep everybody posted, and give excuses for not beeing able to help out the way i would have wanted it.