Still Having Problems with TrueHD

[SomeJoe]

My apologies if this has been asked (or solved) before, but I have been scouring the forum in many places and have not come across this situation.

I am trying to make a backup of one of my original Blu-Ray discs, Iron Man (Region A). My goal is to make a backup of the main movie only, on a BD-R (BD-25), while retaining maximum quality for both audio and video. I decided to do this by keeping the Dolby TrueHD audio track, and reencoding video to fit.

My process is as follows:

1. Extract the audio track using eac3to.exe (v2.85):

eac3to.exe "<path to original directory>" 1) 3: "originalAudio.thd+ac3"

The original audio track on this BD is Dolby TrueHD with an embedded 640Kbps standard ac3. The above command line from eac3to.exe does no reencoding of anything, it just extracts this track with the embedded ac3 intact.

2. Extract the video track using eac3to.exe:

eac3to.exe "<path to original directory>" 1) 1: "originalVideo.h264"

This gives me the original H.264 video. It's too big for a single-layer BD-R, so it needs to be reencoded.

3. Compute my bitrate, and reencode video with DGAVCIndex, AVISynth, and x264.exe. This step goes fine, I end up with another .h264 video file that is now smaller, and when combined with the Dolby TrueHD track, just fits on the BD-25. (DGAVCIndex v1.07, AVISynth v2.57, x264.exe v1057).

4. Mux with TSMuxer to a Blu-Ray structure. TSMuxer recognizes both audio and video tracks properly. I check the "change frame rate" in TSMuxer and give it 24000/1001 which makes the resulting output work properly for FF/Rew.

5. Run FixCLPI on the two CLPI files in the Blu-Ray structure to enable proper FF/Rew.

6. Take the .m2ts file from the output, and run it through TSRemux to create another .m2ts. This is supposed to fix TSMuxer's problem with TrueHD.

7. Take the new .m2ts, put it into the BD structure replacing the old one, and now burn to media using ImgBurn, with UDF 2.50 file system.


OK, the resulting BD-25 plays in my Sony BDP-S350, video looks wonderful. No skipping or anything else. BD player is set to bitstream all audio to my AV receiver. AV receiver shows "TrueHD" in the display, and on-screen info on the BD player shows TrueHD audio track as well.

BUT ... the audio sounds like absolute crap. Contains a lot of static, barely-audible dialogue, no imaging/staging of the sound field at all, hardly any LFE output.

I re-did this entire procedure, substituting PCM audio for the TrueHD:

eac3to.exe "<path to original directory" 1) 3: "originalAudio.pcm" -down16

Took this PCM file, ran it through PCM2TSMu.exe for compatiblity with TSMuxer.

Authored this disc with TSMuxer, did not do the TSRemux step since it's not supposed to be necessary unless you're using TrueHD audio.

This BD with PCM audio is perfect. Audio is identical to the TrueHD audio on the original BD.

By the way, the TrueHD track + 640kbps AC3 core was about 3.8 GB. The PCM track is about 4.3 GB. You'd think that would require me to re-compress the video even smaller, but it turns out that the mux overhead for TrueHD (at least through TSMuxer and TSRemux) is so much higher than for other audio tracks, that I didn't.

So what is going on with TrueHD here? Is there just no way at all, at this time, to get a properly re-muxed TrueHD track?

[idbirch2]

TrueHD is broken in TSMuxer, try TS4Np, others have reported that works although I haven't tested it myself. I've been decompressing the TrueHD to PCM using eac3to and muxing the PCM in with TSMuxer.

[rica]

No need to step 5.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=141125
But THD makes an unwanted overhead.
Transcoding to PCM is better. (playing with TMT .122)
Transcoding to flac; i'm not sure over analog:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143753

[SomeJoe]

TrueHD is broken in TSMuxer, try TS4Np, others have reported that works although I haven't tested it myself. I've been decompressing the TrueHD to PCM using eac3to and muxing the PCM in with TSMuxer.

Thanks! I will try TS4Np and see how that works.

[idbirch2]

Let us know how you get on.

[QuadcoreHD]

If you create an .ISO of the BDMV folder you create when "Creating a blu-ray disc structure" with TSMuxer, you will not have any issues with TrueHD audio. I've read several posts today indicating there is an issue with TrueHD with TSMuxer. While I have not experienced this ever (with the 5 to 6 BDs with TrueHD that I've processed) I'd be interested to know more details about the issues people are having.

Again, creating an ISO eliminates this problem.

Personally, I beleive that using TSMuxer/AnyDVD/ImgBurn is the easiest and most complete way to do this. I have yet to encounter a disc that could not be processed, and have never once had any issues with TrueHD or any other audio/video format on a disc.

PS (and I do hate to do this) but, see the guide in my sig for more information.

[idbirch2]

I'd love to be proved wrong but I've tried TrueHD tracks myself and they don't work. I see absolutely no reason my making the output into an ISO would magically fix anything. You are sure you are not running some obscure old revision of TSMuxer maybe that didn't have the issue (latest version is 1.8.8)?

Next one I get, I'll try it though, just in case (I'm that desperate I would try muxing while facing east if someone told me that would work.)

[mikelebron]

Actually.. just to chime in .... I was in a different forum screaming I couldnt get any HD audio to work after remuxing (AC3 was fine though)... and found that it was PowerDVD. Once I remuxed to a bluray strucutre then created an ISO.. mounted the ISO then played on PwrDVD all worked fine... soo.

It could be the player...

I'd love to be proved wrong but I've tried TrueHD tracks myself and they don't work. I see absolutely no reason my making the output into an ISO would magically fix anything. You are sure you are not running some obscure old revision of TSMuxer maybe that didn't have the issue (latest version is 1.8.8)?

Next one I get, I'll try it though, just in case (I'm that desperate I would try muxing while facing east if someone told me that would work.)

[idbirch2]

Firstly, we are discussing TrueHD in particular, there is no problem with any other HD audio format in TSMuxer, DTS-HD and PCM audio work absolutely fine for me but when the audio is TrueHD, no sound. I doubt it is player related, in my case and the OP's we are using hardware players, the OP a standalone BD player and myself, a PS3. TrueHD does not even work when the output is authored to an AVCHD folder and played from a hard disk.

Some people can get TSMuxer/TrueHD output to play on software players but the result is either as the OP described or the video speeding up and slowing down at random intervals.

[deank]

Can any one provide a 10-30sec sample of trueHD+video?

[rica]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=610f03b89c15442e91b20cc0d07ba4d230a6ed47efffdcad

This is the cut of original m2ts which includes other audio formats as well. Audio 3 is THD.

[peterjcat]

I've found that using SomeJoe's steps but using ts4Np instead of TsRemux results in correct TrueHD playable on my NMT.

[deank]

Thanks.

[<><]

i've been using bdinfo along w/ tsMuxer and have had no problems w/ TrueHD tracks not playing...although i'm just using powerdvd 7.3 to play all my movies (not burning onto bd disk) and it works perfectly.
The FF/RW is broken b/c i haven't used that fixclpi app.

[QuadcoreHD]

@idbirch2,

I understand your frustration. I experienced it myself for months until i discovered that creating an ISO DOES "magically" fix the issue. As I said before, I've yet to NOT be able to process a BD with TrueHD.

Let me clarify as to what my method is:

1. While running AnyDVD HD, use TSmuxer to extract and mux only the main feature .m2ts file, and the master audio track (always in English as I live in the US) which, as you know, is one of several formats: AC3, LPCM, DTS-HD, or the dreaded TrueHD. I always check the option to "create blu-ray structure" in TSMuxer.
2. Once the folder (by default named BDMV) is created on my machine, I then create an .ISO of the entire folder with ImgBurn.
3. Mount this image with Daemon Tools and play with PowerDVD.

This entire process takes about 30-40 mintues and has yet to fail, assuming I am running the most up-to-date verision of AnyDVD.

Now, I undertand this may not work for those who are trying stream to a NAS, PS3, or 360, and unfortunatly I don't have a good solution for those people. But, for everyone using a HTPC, or burning to disc, this method works for every single BD disc I own (which is about 125 discs at this point).

[mikelebron]

This is EXACTLY the process I used and works beautifully... except for the 360/PS3.

@idbirch2,

I understand your frustration. I experienced it myself for months until i discovered that creating an ISO DOES "magically" fix the issue. As I said before, I've yet to NOT be able to process a BD with TrueHD.

Let me clarify as to what my method is:

1. While running AnyDVD HD, use TSmuxer to extract and mux only the main feature .m2ts file, and the master audio track (always in English as I live in the US) which, as you know, is one of several formats: AC3, LPCM, DTS-HD, or the dreaded TrueHD. I always check the option to "create blu-ray structure" in TSMuxer.
2. Once the folder (by default named BDMV) is created on my machine, I then create an .ISO of the entire folder with ImgBurn.
3. Mount this image with Daemon Tools and play with PowerDVD.

This entire process takes about 30-40 mintues and has yet to fail, assuming I am running the most up-to-date verision of AnyDVD.

Now, I undertand this may not work for those who are trying stream to a NAS, PS3, or 360, and unfortunatly I don't have a good solution for those people. But, for everyone using a HTPC, or burning to disc, this method works for every single BD disc I own (which is about 125 discs at this point).

[idbirch2]

This is EXACTLY the process I used and works beautifully... except for the 360/PS3....and standalone bluray players.

[QuadcoreHD]

@idbirch2,

I'll have to say that I don't have much experience with burning/playing on standalones...so I'll defer to you on that point for sure.

[SomeJoe]

Hi Gents,

I repeated my procedure with the latest version of Ts4Np, but unfortunately it still does not work. Same results as before:

Video playback is correct
Audio plays, shows "TrueHD" on both the standalone BD player and on the AV receiver
Audio is full of static (especially dialogue)
Low LFE output
No imaging or staging of the sound field
Possible problems with channel mapping


I guess at this time, the only option is to convert to PCM.

[mochevolete]

Hi Gents,

I repeated my procedure with the latest version of Ts4Np, but unfortunately it still does not work. Same results as before:

Video playback is correct
Audio plays, shows "TrueHD" on both the standalone BD player and on the AV receiver
Audio is full of static (especially dialogue)
Low LFE output
No imaging or staging of the sound field
Possible problems with channel mapping


I guess at this time, the only option is to convert to PCM.
unfortunately I confirm your frustration,
I've spent a whole week trying to backup/downsize The Dark Knight, that has the "infamous" True-HD track, using all sort of methods: Tsmuxer, Tsremux, Tn4sp, eac3to to PCM (all channels mixed up), and at last ... I converted the THD track to DTS, and I can assure you that I can't hear any difference...

So by now I'll stick with this result, waiting for a newer release of TSmuxeR :)

[cullinan]

SomeJoe
open the true-hd file "originalAudio.thd+ac3" with tsmuxer...demux it...tsmuxer will create an ac3-file....then mux the new ac3 file and the movie with tsmuxer...

[mochevolete]

wow you're a genius ..

maybe if someone wants to keep the THD track is interested in mantaining the maximum quality ?

[cullinan]

mochevolete
if you demux a true hd track from a blu-ray it's the same...tsmuxer creates an ac3-file, but keeps the true-hd quality...

true hd track demuxed from a bluray...

Complete name : feature_01 - 5 - TrueHD, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz.ac3
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
File size : 2,28 GiB

Audio
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
Bit rate mode : variabel
Channel(s) : 6 Kanäle
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48,0 KHz

true hd track from a hddvd...thd+ac3...
demuxed with eac3to...


Complete name : feature_01_MERGED.MLP.s01.thd+ac3
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
File size : 1,74 GiB

Audio
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
Bit rate mode : variabel
Channel(s) : 6 Kanäle
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48,0 KHz

the same track after demuxing with tsmuxer...(the track is renamed)...

Complete name : feature_01 - 5 - TrueHD, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz.ac3
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
File size : 1,74 GiB

Audio
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : TrueHD
Bit rate mode : variabel
Channel(s) : 6 Kanäle
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48,0 KHz

[MaXiMuS]

what is "ts4Np" ?

[Ryu77]

what is "ts4Np" ?

http://www.hdd-player.de/syabas/showthread.php?tid=2285

I hope you can read German.

[Ryu77]

SomeJoe
open the true-hd file "originalAudio.thd+ac3" with tsmuxer...demux it...tsmuxer will create an ac3-file....then mux the new ac3 file and the movie with tsmuxer...

What exactly are you saying? Do you really think there isn't somebody on here that has tried that?

tsMuxeR can not multiplex Dolby TrueHD correctly, period!

I am about to test multiplexing TrueHD with Sonic Scenarist. If that doesn't work then I don't know what will...

[magnop]

I am about to test multiplexing TrueHD with Sonic Scenarist. If that doesn't work then I don't know what will...

Did you suceeded to import TrueHD into MUI Generator?

[Digi]

Just my 2 cents but i agree TSmuxer and TrueHD do not mix at all it is broken full stop. But as many others have tried it does work on a PC/HTPC played back via Powerdvd 7/8 probably due to the fact that a PC/HTPC is more tolerant to little hiccups caused in the remux.

Now i do have a standalone blu ray player and can confirm that if just the main movie and HD audio are kept and TSremuxed burned to a BD-R or BD-RE they do not work with a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack, But the same .iso image played through my HTPC with powerdvd plays fine but i have found that Arcsoft TMT struggles with exactly the same file.

[Ryu77]

Did you suceeded to import TrueHD into MUI Generator?

No, the only option was for "Dolby Lossless". I am not sure if this is exactly the same thing as Dolby TrueHD but I can't think of anything else it would be.

However, Sonic still rejected the audio track. :-(

[vamsiklak]

seems like non of th softwares in the market aren't true-hd comptable
iam talking about rip/clone/ viceversa
the only software is anydvdhd that too rip the whole disc

hopw fully slysfot will release movie only with audio and subty options or like clone-bd with option of ripping only wanted tracks(video,audioand subty vice)
let see

[jamos]

Tsmuxer no matter what you do will not properly remux truehd in a bd format. Software players are more tolorent of this error. I am looking at the file now to see if its something easy to fix. Until then either not use true hd, or remux it to lpcm, if your planning on playing the disk in a standalone player. ps I have also tried to use tsremux but the audio and video is choppy using that.

[jamos]

TrueHD is broken in TSMuxer, try TS4Np, others have reported that works although I haven't tested it myself. I've been decompressing the TrueHD to PCM using eac3to and muxing the PCM in with TSMuxer.

I have gotten TSmuxer to work with True hd before. but some tracks it has issues with. So its not like its always broken. the problem is that you cant tell if its broken or not until you've burned it and tried it in a stand alone player so thats why its cheaper to convert to lpcm or just use ac3 (which i cant tell much diffence anyways and using avchd i would rather use the space for higher video bitrate).

[vamsiklak]

does the LPCM works with tsmuxer
how about dts-hd

[jamos]

does the LPCM works with tsmuxer
how about dts-hd

i know dts-hd does.

[jamos]

No, the only option was for "Dolby Lossless". I am not sure if this is exactly the same thing as Dolby TrueHD but I can't think of anything else it would be.

However, Sonic still rejected the audio track. :-(

You can get it to work by using eac3to.exe and extract the thd and the ac3 tracks from the original true hd track of the m2ts file. then use the mui generator to open the ac3 track first then choose the drop down for dolby lossless, then hit create files it will then prompt you for another file. that file is the thd file you extracted (just change the file name in the prompt).

[jacked]

You can get it to work by using eac3to.exe and extract the thd and the ac3 tracks from the original true hd track of the m2ts file. then use the mui generator to open the ac3 track first then choose the drop down for dolby lossless, then hit create files it will then prompt you for another file. that file is the thd file you extracted (just change the file name in the prompt).

I`ve just tried this method on a back-up of The Matrix HD-DVD, movie only with True HD, and it works perfectly on a standalone player + PS3.
Thanks very much for your advice.
:thanks:

[deank]

Can any one provide a 10-30sec sample of trueHD+video?

I tried this with multiAVCHD and it gave me a nice smooth output, containing the VC-1 video + all subtitles and all audio tracks.

It skipped a lot when playing the TrueHD track from Memory Stick... A lot less from ext USB HDD. Plays really smooth in Nero Showtime and with almost smooth :) in PS3. In fact I don't know if it is a audio problem or something else because my AV receiver flashes from Dolby to Stereo and back to Dolby for 200-300ms.

PS3 shows VC-1 bitrate of about 40Mbps which is really high IMO.

[newcomers]

I can also confirm that although PDVD will play True-HD, TMT will not, and that is using iso files too.

Looks like its either using PDVD and put up with the ff/rew problem, or use tmt and convert true-hd to ac3.

Is there a lot fo difference in sound quality between the 2?

Thanks

[jamos]

I can also confirm that although PDVD will play True-HD, TMT will not, and that is using iso files too.

Looks like its either using PDVD and put up with the ff/rew problem, or use tmt and convert true-hd to ac3.

Is there a lot fo difference in sound quality between the 2?

Thanks

IMHO we are being a bit anal here, but that is why we are here because we care about preserving original quality.:p the actual difference between true-hd and ac3 640 kbit is not much. If your a audiofile and have a $800+ receiver that handles HDMI audio input you will hear the difference but most won't. and according to AVCHD true-hd is not supported so if your going for most compatable leave it ac3.

[Digi]

IMHO we are being a bit anal here, but that is why we are here because we care about preserving original quality.:p the actual difference between true-hd and ac3 640 kbit is not much. If your a audiofile and have a $800+ receiver that handles HDMI audio input you will hear the difference but most won't. and according to AVCHD true-hd is not supported so if your going for most compatable leave it ac3.

If your playing an AVCHD authored disc on a Blu Ray standalone then you are correct that only Dolby Digital up to 640kbps is supported but as we all know the PS3 can play AVCHD encodes with Dolbytruehd and DTS-HD MA.

Personally if your going to remux then anything below BD25 is not worth the time or effort

[newcomers]

If your playing an AVCHD authored disc on a Blu Ray standalone then you are correct that only Dolby Digital up to 640kbps is supported but as we all know the PS3 can play AVCHD encodes with Dolbytruehd and DTS-HD MA.

Personally if your going to remux then anything below BD25 is not worth the time or effort

what do you mean by an "avchd" disc? I thought the True HD problem was a tsmuxer issue, or does it go beyond that? What ive decided to do at the moment is any title that has True HD, im just ripping it straight to image (exact copy) using anydvd, and anything else im using tsmuxer to keep main video and 1 audio track.

[Digi]

what do you mean by an "avchd" disc? I thought the True HD problem was a tsmuxer issue, or does it go beyond that? What ive decided to do at the moment is any title that has True HD, im just ripping it straight to image (exact copy) using anydvd, and anything else im using tsmuxer to keep main video and 1 audio track.

If you use TSMuxer to do any kind of stripping on a blu ray disc and then output a Blu ray structure, What you are actually getting is a Hybrid Blu Ray/AVCHD directory.

Have a search on the forums this has been well documented.

[idbirch2]

the actual difference between true-hd and ac3 640 kbit is not much. If your a audiofile and have a $800+ receiver that handles HDMI audio input you will hear the difference but most won't.This seems like a silly comment, you're saying lossless audio is no different to highly compressed audio when played back on equipment with no HDMI connectivity. Well, of course there's no difference then because without HDMI, the audio is stripped down to its AC3/DTS core.

Also, you could get away with saying that only audiophiles had HDMI receivers 2-3 years ago but that it not the case now.

[jamos]

This seems like a silly comment, you're saying lossless audio is no different to highly compressed audio when played back on equipment with no HDMI connectivity. Well, of course there's no difference then because without HDMI, the audio is stripped down to its AC3/DTS core.

Also, you could get away with saying that only audiophiles had HDMI receivers 2-3 years ago but that it not the case now.
I did not say no difference, I said not much unless you have good equipment. Most of the audio quality depends on the audio decoder/processor also (ps3 not so great). Now my Sony BDP-S5000ES outputing bitstream through HDMI to my Onkyo SR-806 reciever which does the TRUE-HD/DTS-MA decoding sounds sweet with lossless audio compared to ac3 640k.

[newcomers]

I did not say no difference, I said not much unless you have good equipment. Most of the audio quality depends on the audio decoder/processor also (ps3 not so great). Now my Sony BDP-S5000ES outputing bitstream through HDMI to my Onkyo SR-806 reciever which does the TRUE-HD/DTS-MA decoding sounds sweet with lossless audio compared to ac3 640k.

I also have an Onkyo, the 606. My HTPC (tmt) sends audio to the onkyo via hdmi. Like I said, for the time being, any discs with True HD i wont be touching until a fix has ben found

[idbirch2]

I did not say no difference, I said not much unless you have good equipment.You missed my point. Without good equipment, there is no difference.

[Ryu77]

idbirch2 & jamos, I can see both sides to the discussion here...

If your a audiofile and have a $800+ receiver that handles HDMI audio input you will hear the difference but most won't.

Well, of course there's no difference then because without HDMI, the audio is stripped down to its AC3/DTS core.

These both state that the only way to get lossless audio is with an AV Receiver with a HDMI audio decoder, which is not the case. It is possible to get lossless audio through multi channel analog connections. This is where the onboard DAC's will play the most important role. Obviously the PS3 isn't capable of this but there are quite a few stand alone BD Players and HTPC's that are.

There simply seems to be a mix up of words here and I know that you are both fully aware of the points I just made. I just felt that I could add some clarity to the discussion. I think all jamos was trying to say was that without good equipment you wont hear that much of a difference, which I agree on. One part I would like to comment on though...

the actual difference between true-hd and ac3 640 kbit is not much

I think with good quality equipment, the difference is quite substantial. I mean no disrespect here but unless you do have a high end setup, then it may be best to not make assumptions based on the differences heard with equipment not able to present lossless audio in it's full glory. jamos, it seems like you do have a good AV Reciever and BD Player (although speakers aren't mentioned), I would be truly surprised if you can not appreciate the merits of lossless audio.




You can get it to work by using eac3to.exe and extract the thd and the ac3 tracks from the original true hd track of the m2ts file. then use the mui generator to open the ac3 track first then choose the drop down for dolby lossless, then hit create files it will then prompt you for another file. that file is the thd file you extracted (just change the file name in the prompt).

Thank you for your reply here. Are you saying that I need to extract the TrueHD track and the AC3 track separately or extract one track with the TrueHD + AC3 core together? The way I understood your post is to extract them separately...

1) Extract TrueHD track.
2) Extract AC3 track.
3) Open MUI Generator.
4) Select AC3 from dropdown and navigate to AC3 track.
5) Change dropdown to Dolby Lossless.
6) Press create files, MUI Generator will prompt for another track.
7) Select TrueHD (.thd) track.

Is this correct?

[jamos]

Thank you for your reply here. Are you saying that I need to extract the TrueHD track and the AC3 track separately or extract one track with the TrueHD + AC3 core together? The way I understood your post is to extract them separately...

1) Extract TrueHD track.
2) Extract AC3 track.
3) Open MUI Generator.
4) Select AC3 from dropdown and navigate to AC3 track.
5) Change dropdown to Dolby Lossless.
6) Press create files, MUI Generator will prompt for another track.
7) Select TrueHD (.thd) track.

Is this correct?

Yes seperetly extracted from the TRUE-HD stream. Try it out and see if that works. Some here have said it does.

[newcomers]

where can I download MUI generator?

Thanks

[idbirch2]

MUI Generator is a component of Sonic Scenarist. You can't download it and Scenarist is an incredibly expensive piece of software.